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How do you review? Do you consider your criteria responsible?

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Short answer, yes I like covers that are not like the original. I'm about the only one that liked Celine Dion's cover of "Shook me all Night Long." Of course, she did not sound like Brian Johnson. That's the beauty of it. For a long time, Judas Priest's cover of "Diamonds and Rust" was very unlike the original. And I liked it. Recently, they have been closer to the original arrangement. And I like that, too.

I guess I am uncultured and have no good taste. Such is life.

So, yeah, if I liked someone's cover, I liked it. They might have also been pitchy or had timing issues or scooped the notes or crashed the notes. And I will point those out, too. And while I'm pointing out the technical issues, I will also applaud the personal rendition. Most especially if they did NOT try to sound like the original singer. A big hooraw for that.

If I don't like the song but it was technically good, I may or may not comment. I might say, this is not my usual genre to listen to but it sound like you did well. Or I may not comment at all. I have limited time and like others, may only concentrate on the songs that interest me.

Like I said before, applauding what was good is just as much about a balanced review as detailing what could use improvement. And I agree with Rach. I may or may not like a song, I may not like the person's take on it, but I would only critique technical issues and if I have an aesthetic comment, I will preface it with that disclaimer. As well as personal opinions about editing of the recording

On the other hand, I don't think that because a person did one thing wrong, that their entire way of singing is flawed and that the entire song or any song they sing is not good or beyond repair. But that's just me. I could be wrong in my way of reviewing.

Something else to put on the long list of my flaws.

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:| I should just keep my mouth shut on everything. I am not a teacher. I myself have no control over my support. I do not know how to distort healthy or otherwise. I cannot navigate passagio (or even spell it).

But there are times when I feel that I have something to say. So I say it. I may be way off base. I can be wrong. But my opinion is all that I have to give.

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And that is what I usually try to do, from the approach of operant conditioning. It's how an organism learns. Behaviors that get rewarded get reinforced, usually (positive reward.) Behaviors that do not get rewarded tend to decrease (negative reward, and abation of the behavior is called extinction, OC.) And it trains better and more fully than just criticizing what was wrong (positive punishment.) And the cessation of punishment when something right is done (negative punishment) doesn't lead the way as directly as positive reward.

So, sometimes, when someone does something that I, the idiot from Texas thinks is right, I might say something as simple as "do that some more." Whatever you were doing, whatever that felt like, follow that. Semantics is a slippery slope. But a personal reference such as what something felt like when you did it right can help.

But I think I am being told that is not helpful and I am encouraging people to continue singing badly because I do not condemn the entire song and beseech the person to start over from scratch and work until they sound like Peter O'Toole, for example.

And when I run across a sample that has no redeeming value and everything, indeed, seems wrong, I point that out to, if I comment at all. Other times, I would not comment at all. Does that make me guilty of supporting bad singing by not pointing it out? Sometimes, no reaction is a more stern correction than "seek instruction." Think about it. Singing so poorly it doesn't even rate a comment?

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I think it's a bit more complicated than the latest research may show. I don't know. I am not really completely sold on the new modern way of giving everyone a trophy at tournaments or competitions That seems to be the new thing now based on this new "rewarding" theory. There is a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place winners trophy as has always been, but now there is also a smaller trophy for all competitors no matter how good or bad. When I was growing up if you didn't get 1st, 2nd or 3rd you lost! Period. It was a signal that you needed to train harder.

Now, as it relates here on the forum I also have mixed feelings. Positive reinforcement can be great I guess. But here is how it makes me feel personally. If I post a song and get good reviews I feel good and yes I want to do more. But then the next day I might sign on and see someone post a song that is terrible but due to the "positive review theory" he also gets a good review. Now, I start to second guess my previous submission and wonder if it was good or are they just saying that. "Wow....I thought I sounded good but they are also saying he sounded good. Maybe they don't really know what they are listening to or maybe they just say everyone sounds good. maybe I suck!" And I end up feeling bad. Then there is the other point of getting a positive review when I shouldn't get one then I end up not knowing what I need to work on.

I'm still on the fence with this idea. :)

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What I have learned of operant conditioning (applied skinnerism) comes from the works of Karen Pryor, et al, in the observation of a number of mammals, from dolphins, to dogs, to rats. And, of course, humans. Pryor has had published (and peer-reviewed) works that date back 40 years.

But here's the kicker. The definition of reward and punishment depend on the subject. The subject has to see the reward as a reward. Has to see th punishment as a punishment. And relate it to the behavior. My dog, with his first owners, was allowed to wrestle with them for play time. So, when I got him and wanted to stop him from jumping on people, I would scruff him (grab his fur behind the head) and pin him to the floor. And he would "grin," get back up and do it again. Because he did not identify the scruff and pin as a punishment. It felt like wrestling, which is play for him, which is a reward. I was acccidently rewarding him for doing what I did not want.

You want to know what stopped him from jumping on people? I rewarded him when he disengaged from jumping on people. "Off" is the command and came to exand to mean, disengage from whatever. His valuable rewards are my grilled pork chops and smoked brisket. He needs a sign, "will work for food." Serious as a heart attack. Reward works.

Some people may be rewarded by "critique." That's the direction they want. Others are so used to corrections, rather than praise, that they only want to know what "not to do." Which allows them to try the next thing. But mostly, correction only stops something, and only if the subject links it with that behavior. It does not lead where to go to.

I didn't make this up.

But hey, if makes people "happy," I will, when I can, avoid giving praise. I'm not making promises that I can keep that up. But I will try.

:D

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Does anybody really think that a bad review is a good thing? How does "I do not like it. Your pitch is all over the place. You don't take a breath in the correct place" really help anyone?

There is no guidence there. No direction. It can only lead to more confusion and frustration. Perhaps it may lead the singer to realize that he does infact need a coach. Maybe it will lead him to drop the coach that he does have. And if he has been following a program like pillars he may get disillusioned with it and abandon that path also.

Why is it considered bad to say " good job" " I liked what you did in the first chorus better than what you did in the second verse".

Even if someone is way off on the pitch but his support is good. Why not say " your pitch was bad but your support shows promise" ?

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I don't think anyone is saying they would just give a bad review as in that's no good or that the pitch is all over the place. But rather than "good job," They might say, "it wasn't good because..." and then offer advice after pointing out what they hear wrong with it. Or maybe in other cases, "that wasn't bad but..." and again advice. But the point is to say it's bad when it's bad (but offer advice) instead of coddling and saying "good job" no matter what.

So, sure. Reward the good things, but surely point out the bad. The point is that many times reward is given (good job) to the whole thing....good or bad...for the sake of "positive reinforcement."

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I started to write a long post earlier but after reading I decided I had better take my own advice and keep my keyboard shut. Here it goes any way,

What if what you hear you are not pleased with but there are no technical flaws to comment on? What if the song or voice just does not fit in your opinion? No matter how much experience you have or how technical you are, that is a matter of taste. Should you still say you do not like it because in your opinion it does not sound right or does not fit?

For all I know others may feel the same way. I try to keep my comments to myself in that situation.

When I first joined I thought the critique section was just that. Pick the song apart. what did you like. What did you not like. Was I on key. Did the message of the song get through in a way that was pleasant and appropriate. But I believe that I hurt some feelings or showed my obvious lack of knowledge by saying that some things did not fit emotionally in the song although the technique was way beyond my ability and understanding. And isn't that a big part of singing also, emoting?

This is not a response to any ones previous posts. Just another thought that crossed my mind.

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Ther are I think three areas for review:

1. The end prouct, relatively objective comments such as: pitch, pronunciation, articulation.

2. Aesthetics, more subjective comments on such as the approach, tone , delivery.

3. Technique, comments on how falsetto, support etc. were used. Mostly I think for those of us who know about these things.

I comment almost entirely in category 1.

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So, Tommy, all the times I said "good job" to your performance or recording, that didn't help, at least from the perspective of another blues fan, to let you know you were going on a path that was right and valid? That was wrong? Not helpful?

My apologies. In the future, even if I liked the song and even if you did technically well, I will crap all over you, if that helps you. Maybe you like getting kicked around, IDK. That would be your reward and I have not been rewarding you, then. :o

And I am having the hardest time picking something just to be picking on something just because the section says "critique." And there can always be a picky thing, to justify people's sense of self-importance. For example, you could present a flawless execution of a song. And I could simply say, "the vowels are too wide in this part. I did not like it." I Have seen such a review and my thought was "wide, compared to what standard"? And how could that be determined of what was a phone recording with a cheap, cheap mic? And if the person could "narrow" the vowels, then they could receive the new critique of "vowels too narrow," and on and on, infinitely.

And just before I take another slam for talking about equipment, anyone here have a probelem with getting lessons over the phone? In that case, I don't physically need to be with a coach, right? And if you say I need to, why is that, exactly? What's wrong with doing it over the phone if equipment is not a limitation? You don't get to have your cake and eat it, too.

If the song was good enough for a public performance, from my perspective as the next guy at the bar listening to you on the karaoke mic, I will say so, and trust me, there ain't nunya mean enough to stop me. Tommy might be physically able to stop me, since he has more street-fighting experience and that is what it would take to stop me. Someone is going to have to physically stop me from being to say "good job" if I happened to have liked it.

If the singing was good enough to carry the song, I will say so because this a singer's forum, not a recording engineer's forum. Was it like the original? Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? I don't, which might be a personal flaw in myself.

And since I am not a singing instructor or coach or teacher with any kind of credentials, you can take my review and give it as much weight as what you might accord to anyone on the audience tonight. That's fine, won't hurt my feelings.

In addition, what I think makes me different than others is that I can retain some detachment. I've received a scathing reiew from a person. Then they put up a sample that was awesome. And I tell them so. That is, I don't rip them apart, even if they ripped me apart. Good is good.

I also agree with Rach. Some technical problems are better served by adjusting one thing with surgical precision, rather than saying, the entire thing is broken and must be started over from scratch. Again, that is my layman's opinion. Kind of like the Jeet Kune Do thing. Your body already knows how to move. Here is how to move it more precisely, yet fluidly.

I find that after all this discussion and my promises to be a more picky "ronws," I'm going to continue reviewing the way that I do. If I liked it, I will say so. If I spotted what I thought was a technical problem, I will point that out, along with ideas I may have to fix it. I will also applaud what I think was right or good, from my perspective.

And if the whole thing was flawed, and there have been a few like that, I will point that out, too.

I will not pick on something just to be picking on it when it was a matter of interpretation, just to prove that I can be "critical" or to get in a war with someone, even if that someone has slammed me in the past on something else. I just don't have the energy for that.

And so, I also would challenge others to accept the reviews as intended. Perceptions from fellow singers and listeners. If I say it was and another person didn't like it or had more picky things to say, it's your right to say that you value the picky reply moreso. And if you (persons, in general) do a song well and I say you did a song well and you think you did not do well, let me ask this. Why is my viewpoint less valid? And, what happened to the common knowledge that you cannot hear yourself as others hear you? What may have sounded flawed to you sounded fine, from here. And if you feel there were some mistakes and you even preface it with where, then you don't need me pointing it out because you have already spotted it.

In which case, you need a technical fix. In which case, I might have to echo others here. Get a coach. And that's the "Easy" part. Here is the hard part, the hardest thing you will ever have to do. Pay attention to this coach that you have paid money to. And when he or she says you are doing it right, here's the hard part. Are you ready? Got some backbone? Got some huevos? Are you sure?

Listen to the coach and accept what the coach has said. And disregard the comments of us armchair experts. That's easier said than done. Notice I said it would be hard to do and I was not kidding or exaggerating.

And be prepared that not everyone is a fan. I did a song. Some people made interpretive suggestions. I made those changes and they like the changes. And someone else didn't. You can't win them all.

And I, as a recipient of reviews, work on changing my reaction to reviews, good and bad. To take the reviews and see how they apply, whether to use or not use the recommendations. And thank others for their time, regardless of motivation, for responding. For I have put up songs that never received one comment, good, bad, nothing. Sometimes "bad" press is better than no press at all.

:lol:

You know you tanked when the only response is chirpping crickets.

:lol:

Reminds me of my step-daughter's wedding ....

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So, Tommy, all the times I said "good job" to your performance or recording, that didn't help, at least from the perspective of another blues fan, to let you know you were going on a path that was right and valid? That was wrong? Not helpful?

My apologies. In the future, even if I liked the song and even if you did technically well, I will crap all over you, if that helps you. Maybe you like getting kicked around, IDK. That would be your reward and I have not been rewarding you, then. :o

And I am having the hardest time picking something just to be picking on something just because the section says "critique." And there can always be a picky thing, to justify people's sense of self-importance. For example, you could present a flawless execution of a song. And I could simply say, "the vowels are too wide in this part. I did not like it."

This is probably about the third time I have posted in this thread and it has been misinterpreted so I think I'm done. Shut up Tommy :D No I don't like to be crapped on and I do like it when my songs are liked.

Hold on....I am almost posting another response here........done Tommy....DONE!! :D

I'll take the blame for misinterpretation. Maybe I am not conveying my message well.

I will say this though. When Felipe likes a song I or anyone posts he says it. I can believe it is good also. Because if he finds something glaring in it, he also says it. Or even little details that take away from the song. I call that honest critique.

Everyone may not agree with his critique but then at least it opens a line of dialogue or debate in which case everyone learns from and the singer decides if it needs to be fixed or left alone based on the varying sides of opinion. Or maybe everyone agrees. But for that to happen someone has to say something in the first place.

You know you tanked when the only response is chirpping crickets.

:lol:

I've gotten many of those which makes me curious because they were songs I thought were good. However the only response may have been from you. Then again.....maybe you're just "good Jobing " everything :D

Then again I have posted songs I thought were no good and people like them,so I don't get it.

Then again look at Elena House. Beautiful voice but never a comment.

Or how about Keith? We all know he can sing well but he has been working on some fine tuning of his higher register. He posted a few songs lately that had he said nothing may have got a "good job." They were good. However, he was looking for what was wrong and everyone pretty much chimed in which becomes helpful. Had he not said he was working on something people, for whatever reason probably would have just said "I liked it" leaving him to think he solved his problem.

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Just to let people know: I do not check the critique section every day. If I see a 2 or more songs posted by someone I may pick only one to comment on. Like all of us we do not comment on all posts.

If I feel that both songs are equally well or one has some tweeking over the other I may comment on the latter and not post to the former.

But If I say I liked something I liked it and If I said I didn't Idid not.

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Personally I think everyone needs a level head. The poster/singer as well as the critic. A critique or a seeming shootdown of a technique is only an attempt at help to make it better. In many cases it is just an opinion not fact. One person hears something and attempts to offer advice or correction while the next person hears nothing.

The point is that if it were a record for sale maybe you buy it anyway. But once put under the microscope for the sake of technique improvement (or not) then it is a different ballgame.

Guitar players as well as vocalists can say the Niel Young isn't a model singer nor guitar player. Put his song here (raw) for critique. But the bottom line is would you buy it or listen to more? Yes I would. But if he put a new song here for critique...well...:) So a bad critique doesn't necessarily mean you dislike it. It's based on advice and improvement.

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I've gotten many of those which makes me curious because they were songs I thought were good. However the only response may have been from you. Then again.....maybe you're just "good Jobing " everything :D

Darn it, Tommy, you made me laugh.

Good job ....

(looks both ways, carefully)

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Honesty is the key whenever you are into giving your opinion in something, specially in this case, a review section on a specialized forum.

If you seriously cant stand your ground in saying " I like it, or not like it", despite if knowing or not the reasons why, then Im sorry but you are doing something else, you are not reviewing.

But I dont believe that is the case. As I said on the beginning of the thread, and all this circular arguments confirms, its just a case of overthinking stuff that really dont matter to it. A person asks your opinion and you go about didatics of how you will better teach him/her? Come on... This is arrogance.

So singers are "sensitive to pitchness". Surely! And they do well on being so. But If they are really this sensitive, why sending something pitchy? Tensions? Or is it a perception problem? There are persons who do not have a relative pitch perception well developed and will need to work on it, the basic step to develop it is exactly knowing that they have the issue (the lack of perception prevents the person of perceiving it, tricky uh?).

Im not against anyone here giving out "good jobs". All im asking is if you are giving a good job when you really think it is a good job, regarding the song. Are you reviewing the song you heard or something else that has nothing to do with?

As was said before: Are you giving the truth? Can it be trusted?

Its curious that the didatic thing was brought up, trust is the only thing that matters in a teacher-student relationship, all this postive reinforcement blabbering works well with dogs and maybe kids up to a certain age, but does not work when you work with an equal. If you try to pull something like this and the person notices... Maybe it will work with a bunch of complete beginners who have no idea of what they are doing, but I consider it no ethical, to me its what defines a fraud.

By praising qualities that are not there yet you are deceiving the results that you should be helping the person achieve, and not creating illusions of accomplishment.

Am I really this weird? Would you guys be ok being instructed like that? "ooohh awesome job in this line (the rest sux big time...), such a wonderfull singing (you wish)"... Why doing it with others? This is not ok guys, it is a distortion of values.

From the day I began trainning, negative feedback, was not only important, but expected. So what is wrong? What needs to be changed? If its all wrong, then its better listenning to it already and working towars the goal starting now than trying to give out homeopatic dosis, thats what I would want if it was me, and its the only way I can think about this.

Anyways I sincerely hope you guys think a bit about it. And Im not directing this to you rowns, I never doubt you were sincere. This is really a more general thing, and really towards the honesty part, not trying to force my opinions on anyone, as I said before.

Again, is it honest? Cant it be trusted?

Simple questions. There is no didatic involved ;)

And yet you will notice that I am only more direct with the people I see on the technique forum and seem to talk from an instructed background. In my opinion if you can talk and discuss support, give instruction and brag about how super large your range is, then the least to be expected is results when singing.

Otherwise I dont ommit myself, but I do keep in mind that the technical background isnt supposed to be there and I approach things in a more "wordy" way, although I do try to keep the message intact ;)

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Who cares about honesty? Go with what gives the best results. And you can find good stuff and qualities in all singers if you look good enough. The same with the bad stuff...

You should tell the singer/vocalist need to hear, some get pushed to the next level by brutal honesty and others simply quit.

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Yes honesty is desirable, but not as desirable as good results. You can ALWAYS choose to see the good in things instead of the bad. And focus on that, this works wonders...

even the worst singer can make something good, id still focus on that.

Ive been extremly bad, couldnt hear any diffrence between pitches and no rythm plus à weak voice.

if id heard the truth then i wouldnt be on this forum today... Instead people pushed my strenghts and im so grateful for that today.

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Honesty is expected and desired. Also what should be taken into consideration is the level of ability.

If you expect me to sound on the level of Felipe or Robert or GuitarGeorge on my contributions all you can honestly say is "I do not like it. There is not enough support, too much air, no consistency" and you would be correct to do so. But you can hear from my contribution that I am not on that level far from it. I would not expect to hear "Great job" If I am being judged or reviewed from someone expecting that quality.

But I do expect for someone knowing my limited ability and where I am in the process to be able to tell me if I am getting better, If the voice fits the song, Do I have enough compression.....

I am not so self centered to think that If someone says "good job" on a review that I would think that I can take over Roberts job. I would only think that I am getting better. I believe that other posters are equally self aware.

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As for myself I have been looking forward for you to critique my song. I already know that I have a lot of faults but I am not good enough to spot them by myself.

I know where you are coming from in your post. I am a guitar player and I can tell when someones instrument is out of tune. I can tell when another guitarist is out of sinc with the drums. Before I learned how to play I could not tell weather a guitar was in tune or not. Now I am sensitive to it.

I have not learned to play the voice yet like you have. I am not sensitive about when someones technique is good or bad. I can only tell when it is way above my level or way below. To the former I say good job because it is above me. If there is something obvious to me then there is something that I can point out.

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I appreciate honest feedback if it helps me tweak my performance. And I want to know if something needs work. But I don't get too crazy about it. Opinions vary and I have to take the whole ball of wax into consideration. That means feedback from here and similar places, as well as feedback from live performance from people I can see and touch! After all, singers have been successful and learned for many years before there were ever such a thing as a forum. Most times you have no clue who is critiquing you anyway other than what or who they say they are from behind their computer screen. I've heard people right here who can spout a great deal of information but can't sing a lick. I have found this common on forums of all types, from fighting/martial arts, weight lifting, boxing, health, art, diet or whatever...you name it.

These days people live their lives by what is said on forums. I've been to health forums where everyone is suddenly a nutritional expert and they all start spouting the same things. "you'll never be healthy if you don't eat this twice a day." Or take this every day. Or Auto repair forums "your car will never run right unless you have this" Or exercise forums " you will never be fit unless you do this." Get it? Everyone is an expert. Over the years (I have been frequenting forums for almost 20 years) I have even met forum members in person. Quite often they are nothing like you thought by their writing and also usually suck at what they claim to be good at on the forum.

So, while I learn a lot, I also have learned how to learn from a forum. By weeding through what is said, thrashing the info from "overkill" types, taking much with a grain of salt, and relying on real life experiences for my main source of feedback and guidance.

There are many great people out there who could care less about the internet. And many more who succeeded before there was such a thing as a computer or a smartphone. Luckily here we have recordings on forums like this as well as videos to help. But there are still those who never post samples. There is also skype which is good. But again....that falls into the category of live and in person. Like I said. I take all of it into consideration for how I am doing personally.

If I had no more computer I would have to rely on how much people would smile when I sang,(or not) or feedback. Sometimes someone can compliment you because it is the nice thing to do. But sometimes someone can actually go out of their way to get to you to compliment you. You know....when they didn't have to. I take that over a forum critique any day.

But if I get a critique that can actually enhance that performance and make them smile more or stand instead of sit when applauding. Then again....that's something. Again, I consider it all. :)

But that's me ;)

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Felipe i think your hungup on the word honest... Yes you should be honest but focus on the good parts, it's alot easyer to build on something good Than to work from whats bad. This applies to life in general

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Of course, one has to mention that all the stuff about operant conditioning and dogs does not apply but that it is not directed at "ronws." But I am the one that mention all of that unimportant stuff.

For me, disingenuity is a hard thing to accept. Most people don't have the strength to be honest. Honest with others, honest with themselves. In my experience, disingenuous statements start with "I love you but" and my favorite, "not to be mean or nothing, but." Or the polite version "with all due respect." What follows is a total disregard for what the person has said.

It is more honest to say "ronws, the stuff about operant condition and dogs is not applicable." Or, even more honestly, "ronws, I do not believe that is applicable." Whether it is, or not, the statement is more honest.

Felipe is right, however, it is more honest if you say you don't like something. And, if possible, please explain why you did not like it. However, please, be prepared to back up what you say or answer questions when someone questions your review.

I also think it is more honest for me to say I liked this and that needs work. I am being honest when I say such things. I am also being honest when I say that someone needs to fix this or that and not that they need to start from the basics. Sometimes, a mistake is just a mistake.

I am also honest when I point out that my review is from my perception and my thoughts on singing. For some, a mistake means the entire singing structure must be re-built. I don't think that way and I am being honest when I say I don't think that way.

Except in a few circumstances. And those few times, I let the person know they had nothing good. Those posts have since sunk into the oblivion of the database or server space or whatever the tech term is.

Can ya'll really stand some honesty? Do you really have the huevos, the backbone? Who is the cheerleader around here? Who hands out many "good job"s, with or without additional critique? Who is that?

So, who or what is this thread about?

And no, I'm not being confrontational, not trying to have a flamewar or a verbal throwdown. Just looking for some honesty.

On a sidenote, any guy who is married knows the answer to the question "do these pants make my behind look big?"

The proper answer for the married man is "you look great."

And my wife's measurements are 36-24-34, so I get to be honest all the time.

Sometimes, it's good to be me.

:D

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