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Singing a C6

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Mr.stevenbradley

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Hey guys,

Lately I've been trying to see how high I can possibly sing, and my ambitions have been peaked hearing how certain singers (IE Mark Grubb) can actually sing above Female High C. C6.

No matter what I do, I absolutely cannot get above Bb5. It feels impossible, and I don't know what to do. I've seen Alessandro Del Vecchio do it, and it's amazing.

I've talked with Mark about it, but would like some other opinions as well, maybe one of them will make everything click for me.

Thanks so much!

-Steven-

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Hey guys,

Lately I've been trying to see how high I can possibly sing, and my ambitions have been peaked hearing how certain singers (IE Mark Grubb) can actually sing above Female High C. C6.

No matter what I do, I absolutely cannot get above Bb5. It feels impossible, and I don't know what to do. I've seen Alessandro Del Vecchio do it, and it's amazing.

I've talked with Mark about it, but would like some other opinions as well, maybe one of them will make everything click for me.

Thanks so much!

-Steven-

Steven: What vowel are you singing, and what amount of jaw drop and mouth opening are you using? Tuning the vocal tract by adjusting jaw drop, lip opening and raising the larynx will help, but they are subject to maximums. They can take you only so far.

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Hey guys,

Lately I've been trying to see how high I can possibly sing, and my ambitions have been peaked hearing how certain singers (IE Mark Grubb) can actually sing above Female High C. C6.

No matter what I do, I absolutely cannot get above Bb5. It feels impossible, and I don't know what to do. I've seen Alessandro Del Vecchio do it, and it's amazing.

I've talked with Mark about it, but would like some other opinions as well, maybe one of them will make everything click for me.

Thanks so much!

-Steven-

maybe, i say "maybe" it's simply not in your range..and there is nothing wrong with that.....a voice teacher would be your best bet to assess whether you are capable. some teachers say whatever note you can hit in falsetto you can most likely hit in full voice.

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The highnotes in that range can be quite tricky specially when you approach the Soprano high C.

I can press myself up to a D6 sometimes if im not doing whistles wich can go alot higher, and my best tip is visit your highest notes everyday sing them with diffrent volumes, Do them in scales then your muscles will get strong enough to go higher.

Videohere, expanding range is always possible atleast if you wanna go higher and that is true for almost anyone if you dont have vocalinjury.

Steven bradley please post a clip of your Bb5 so we can hear how it sounds maybe some small pointers can get you on the right path.

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The highnotes in that range can be quite tricky specially when you approach the Soprano high C.

I can press myself up to a D6 sometimes if im not doing whistles wich can go alot higher, and my best tip is visit your highest notes everyday sing them with diffrent volumes, Do them in scales then your muscles will get strong enough to go higher.

Videohere, expanding range is always possible atleast if you wanna go higher and that is true for almost anyone if you dont have vocalinjury.

Steven bradley please post a clip of your Bb5 so we can hear how it sounds maybe some small pointers can get you on the right path.

Jens and stevenbradley: A very good way to extend range is to start with whistle voice, and then learn to add weight to it once the mind and muscles are able to maneuver.

As a specific exercise to accomplish this, I recommend what is called a minimum threshhold pressure approach to the voice, i.e., singing with the absolutely lowest-energy tone that can be made clearly. Begin in the very low range with an extremely soft vocal fry, which sounds more like popping than a real tone, and then siren up until the tone sounds steady, but tiny. There should be no sense that the voice is using any air at all.

The sirens will likely be irregular on first attempt, as adduction reflexes will need to increase just a small amount to compensate for the thinner vocal fold configuration. If a break occurs (where the voice just stops), when you repeat go _slower_ through that region of pitches. The reason for the break is that the thinning vocal process no longer has sufficient adduction to retain the minimum threshold pressure. Going slower will help you sense out how to subtly increase adduction to compensate. The adjustment needed to keep phonation going will be very small,

Once the siren is working softly in the low and middle voice, take it higher, just by thinking higher. Its perfectly ok at this point for the voice to skip a bunch of notes and land suddenly on a note that will seem much more easily done. This is very likely because that particular fundamental has aligned with a resonance. From there, continue to siren around very gently to learn just what thoughts cause the pitch to change. Again, no sense of support or air pressure is expected for this exercise.

I hope this helps.

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Hi Steven! Thats a very interesting excercise. I can even go up to a D6 with that unsupported, thin sound, while my normal head voice range ends somewhere around G5. Could You also explain how to bring back the weight and support to the voice, when it's already up there around C6?

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I used to be able to barely squeek out a G5 (and would never go even remotely that high during live shows). My volume lowers at Eb5. I thought this was just my limit and I could increase my bridging ability by vocal exercises, but never get past that limit and certainly not in full voice.

Then I tried James Lugo's "hee-yah" exercise for a week and to my amazement, I could take that exercise up to a very loud A5! Can anyone tell me why it was easier for me to go higher with that "hee" vowel?

Maybe this is a good exercise to increase one's extreme high end?

(Btw. the exercise is basically like this: You start with a very twangy "hee" sound on a male tenor C and then slide down to a chesty "yah" an octave below. Then you raise the starting pitch half step at a time.)

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Hi Steven! Thats a very interesting excercise. I can even go up to a D6 with that unsupported, thin sound, while my normal head voice range ends somewhere around G5. Could You also explain how to bring back the weight and support to the voice, when it's already up there around C6?

DJDeth: Sure. Place to start is to connect that note scalewise. Skip up to it, and sing a scale downward easily. Repeat until you do not 'clunk' into the next stronger adjustment, but kinda glide into it. You will feel the engagement.

WHen that happens, you will be ready to reverse the direction of the scale. Jump up to the top note, sing down the scale gliding in, and then sing back up the scale. The tendency will be to take a bit more weight up as you do. Its exactly what you want.

You will find that its more work as you go upward, but should not be too much.

Next exercise is to add a messa di voce on the top note after you have returned to it. Skip to the note, scale down, scale up, and do a little cresc/decres pair on the note. Go easily. Don't press it. Just slowly will it to be a bit louder. Your desire to do the crescendo will engage a fuller registration.

There are other approaches, but this one works very well for many.

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I dont like posting my weaknesses, but this is me going over soprano C with alot of volume. It's by no means sounds i could use live since it's hit and miss for me...

Could you please Steven gimme some tips on what i should do when im attemptning to go that high with lots of volume... When i use the whistleregister and swells it, I cant get it anywhere near the volume i have in my head/falsetto the coordination feels so diffrent...

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/21275650/sopraqno_d_attempt.wav

I do think im alittle low on the soprano D even :P

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I dont like posting my weaknesses, but this is me going over soprano C with alot of volume. It's by no means sounds i could use live since it's hit and miss for me...

Could you please Steven gimme some tips on what i should do when im attemptning to go that high with lots of volume... When i use the whistleregister and swells it, I cant get it anywhere near the volume i have in my head/falsetto the coordination feels so diffrent...

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/21275650/sopraqno_d_attempt.wav

I do think im alittle low on the soprano D even :P

Jens: The 2nd note you sing is about 22Hz Sharp of D6 (Soprano high D) The third one (with much more distortion) is the E6 :-)

Yes, the head coordination will feel different from whistle. I hear no falsetto in any of what you recorded.

Here is a spectrograph of your 2nd note. From it, we can make some conclusions about how you can get easier production, _and_ more power at the same time:

THe frequency scale is along the bottom, 1 2 3 4 (5 is the top, but not shown) THose are KHz. So, 1000, 2000, 3000... Hz. The first spike (representing your fundamental,) is just to the right of the 1(000) Mark. Its the softest of the 4. I tested it individually, and it centers on 1096 Hz, 22Hz sharp of D6.

The 2nd harmonic, a bit wider, centering just to the right of the 2, is the 2nd and tallest spike... it's the loudest. This is where most of the power of the note is coming from.

H3 (harmonic 3) is a bit weaker than H2, but still louder than H1. H4 is the 2nd Loudest.

Here is what this tells us:

1) You are getting the bulk of your vocal power on this note from two resonances which align with H2 and H4. I think H2 is aligning with formant 3 (F3) and I think H4 is aligning with the singing formant of your tenor voice, likely because you got some twang going. This is all good. :)

Since F1 is very likely lower than your fundamental, I do not expect to see its influence. However, I don't see any influence from the 2nd formant resonance, F2. The formant is there, but not aligned well with any harmonics.

Look at Harmonic 1 for a moment. You can see that there is some soft sound energy to the 'left' of the center of the peak, while the peak is on the 'right' side. This indicates to me that your F2 is tuned HIGHER than that harmonic, and in your vibrato cycle you are closer to it when your vibrato is on the higher frequency side. What this tells us is that you may be able to get more oompf on the note if you darken the vowel by using a 'just slightly' less wide mouth shape, or (alternatively) just a teeny bit less jaw drop. Either of the motions will lower the formant a wee bit so that it aligns advantageously with H1 (the fundamental)

When that happens, the tone will become much fatter, fuller, and way louder.

To be certain of this, would you do me a favor... would you sing D3 (the D below middle C) with the same embouchure that you did for this note? Record it, and post it, and I will do a spectrogram of it to show you where the resonances are. They are much more visible when you are singing a lower note.

I hope this helps.

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Mr. Fraser,

Forgive me if the answer to my question is already posted somewhere on this thread, but could you explain what the Formants are? I'm following everything in your explanation, save for this term. :)

I'll try and post my example of Bb5 asap...

Thank you!

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Hey Stevenbradley,

This is what I found to define formants:

Formants are defined by Fant [1] as 'the spectral peaks of the sound spectrum |P(f)|' of the voice. Formant is also used to mean an acoustic resonance,[2] and, in speech science and phonetics, a resonance of the human vocal tract. It is often measured as an amplitude peak in the frequency spectrum of the sound, using a spectrogram (in the figure) or a spectrum analyzer, though in vowels spoken with a high fundamental frequency, as in a female or child voice, the frequency of the resonance may lie between the widely-spread harmonics and hence no peak is visible.

Is this right Mr. Fraser?

Cheers!

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I'm going to give it a shot here: Formants are the collection of resonant peaks that make different vowels distinguishable. If you purse your lips for an "oo" sound - and just blow air - no voice - and then gradually change the "oo" to an "ee", you'll hear the resonant frequency go up. Your voice produces fundamental pitches and harmonics - these pitches are "overlayed" on to the resonant frequencies, which amplify the harmonics depending how close they are to the resonant frequencies. The resonant frequencies are more or less fixed for each vowel and the pitches from your vocal bands are variable. You can "tune" the freqencies of the resonances to help amplify the different harmonics depending on the pitch you are singing. This is referred to as vowel modification.

Here is a nice explanation:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/music/vowel.html

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Mr. Fraser,

Forgive me if the answer to my question is already posted somewhere on this thread, but could you explain what the Formants are? I'm following everything in your explanation, save for this term. :)

I'll try and post my example of Bb5 asap...

Thank you!

Mr.stevenbradley: Guitartrek and chele1000 have already posted good descriptions. What I would add is that the positions of these resonances (the formants) move in response to any change in the dimensions of the pharynx, the mouth, the lip opening, the height of the larynx and the position of the tongue.

The lowest 2 formants (F1 and F2) are the ones scientists believe our senses of hearing interpret as vowels. They can be moved up or down, both in terms of absolute frequency, and also the spacing of the two of them can be varied.

Formant 3 is tuneable as well. It is highest when the tip of the tongue is right behind the lower teeth. If the tip is allowed to touch the gum right below those teeth, F3 will get a little lower.

Whenever a harmonic aligns with a formant, that harmonic is significantly emphasized, giving the voice more power and ring. The more resonance, the easier the tone is to produce as well.

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I dont know Martin... C6 with twang? that could get pretty chokey... I think you should go to a fluty'r placement for men to hit a C6... Great stuff Steve Fraser...

Steven, you realize Grubb has been training with me... ? The question I want to ask you is, why do you care? Why do you want to sing a C6 anyways... I mean, you have to know, that the most impressive notes are not the highest ones in terms of achievement in your training ... they are easy and any "chimp" can scream a high note... the true grit is in the low head tones like D4, D#4, E4, F4, F#4, G4, G#4... sing these notes in a strong head tone that is amplified with twang, not constricted and modified with a good "Eh" or "Uh" vowel... and Ill show a vocal moment that is glorious.

Most people can scream out a super high note... its not that big of a deal... show me control, isolated twang, good pitch in the low head tones.. thats where the money notes are and these are pitches you are actually going to use far more often then the occasional, high note scream.

Steve F. : Vowel modification work is KILLER!! ... let me know when your back in Seattle.

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I dont know Martin... C6 with twang? that could get pretty chokey... I think you should go to a fluty'r placement for men to hit a C6...

Well that's a personal choice. You can do it both ways. Jens posted a fine example of C6 - D6 - E6 sung with Neutral and Twang (Metal-like-neutral). :)

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The question I want to ask you is, why do you care? Why do you want to sing a C6 anyways... I mean, you have to know, that the most impressive notes are not the highest ones in terms of achievement in your training ... they are easy and any "chimp" can scream a high note... the true grit is in the low head tones like D4, D#4, E4, F4, F#4, G4, G#4... sing these notes in a strong head tone that is amplified with twang, not constricted and modified with a good "Eh" or "Uh" vowel... and Ill show a vocal moment that is glorious.

Most people can scream out a super high note... its not that big of a deal... show me control, isolated twang, good pitch in the low head tones.. thats where the money notes are and these are pitches you are actually going to use far more often then the occasional, high note scream.

I'm totally agree with you. That's exactly what i'm workin on since we had our lesson ;-). ( the next one will be soon).

This is exactly what i wanted to talk (even if i didn't say it well), in the topic about Terence Trent d'Arby and soul music here :

http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=705

In this style of music most of the singers use strong head voice that for me is really more difficult than singing C6, i can do those really high notes, so if i can do it, i think everybody can do it... On the good day i can vocalize ( with tiny volumes) an octave higher. But whats the interest do to that, how many times in your life will have to sing those 'above the clouds' notes....

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Yes,

The "range chasers" (I know Jens will kill me for this LOL ).

What's the first wish from like 95% of the beginner singers out there? And what is the one singing-program that profits on guaranteeing to fulfill it?

But eventually every singer gets wiser. ;)

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Well the thing is above the cloud notes sets you apart from singers who does not or cant perform them. High notes is a great way to get attention thats why you use them, to wow people with less understanding.

Highnotes look harder then they are to perform like Robert lunte said, but remember that your audience is usualy not trained singers but regular people... They wont have a clue that the middlerange is always the hardest, then you can choose if you should use that to your advantage or not.

Martin every singingprogram promises highnotes and profits from it...

Robert you talk alot of opening up your voice to 4-5 octave ranges in your videos and if your not a very very deep basso you need to get pretty far above soprano C to entitle yourself a 4 or 5 octave range.

Im a real rangechaser since most of the music i want to sing is tenorstuff, most rocksongs, most songs on the radio lies outside of my range since im probably a lighter typed baritone.

The rangechasing from beginner singers is natural since most good singers that are exposed in media or radio have huge vocalranges, is that so weird to want that?

Every one wants to express themself diffrently and i dont think anyone has the right to question what drives a person to sing a certain way... Why would you wanna sing like that?! Why do you wanna growl you should sing musical? You know sounding pretty is whats hard, sounding horrible like deathmetal everyone can do...

Ive seen thousands of similar reactions when a singer wants to learn something, and it's so contraproductive...

The threadmaker didnt ask about how important the middlerange is or isnt, he is asking about notes above soprano high C either you can respond in anyway to help him with the things he has asked about or just be quiet.

Bringing this thread into an other subject wont help him in anyway with what he wants...

Oh Btw Steven thanks for your great analysis it rocks, im gonna post a clip on a lowernote as soon as im done moving :P

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Mr.stevenbradley: Guitartrek and chele1000 have already posted good descriptions. What I would add is that the positions of these resonances (the formants) move in response to any change in the dimensions of the pharynx, the mouth, the lip opening, the height of the larynx and the position of the tongue.

The lowest 2 formants (F1 and F2) are the ones scientists believe our senses of hearing interpret as vowels. They can be moved up or down, both in terms of absolute frequency, and also the spacing of the two of them can be varied.

Formant 3 is tuneable as well. It is highest when the tip of the tongue is right behind the lower teeth. If the tip is allowed to touch the gum right below those teeth, F3 will get a little lower.

Whenever a harmonic aligns with a formant, that harmonic is significantly emphasized, giving the voice more power and ring. The more resonance, the easier the tone is to produce as well.

So is it the formants that are represented as spikes on the spectrograph, or the harmonics? I guess I have been looking for both on the graph. To get it all clear in my head, the Four spikes refer to the four harmonics produced by the fundamental note. Is this correct? And the harmonics grow when they align to the formant of the elements of the vocal tract?

Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

-Steven-

(P.S. Robert, I do know that Mark trained with you. I am merely studying range development 'for the heck of it'. I've heard Alessandro Del Vecchio hit A5's and C6's, and it seems like a great thing to be able to do. But truly, practicing these notes takes up one-tenth of my practice time. In this case, we are similar in that C6's are low on the priority list. :)

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Yes,

The "range chasers" (I know Jens will kill me for this LOL ).

What's the first wish from like 95% of the beginner singers out there? And what is the one singing-program that profits on guaranteeing to fulfill it?

But eventually every singer gets wiser. ;)

New singers want to learn to sing high notes... sure. Martin, I get it... TVS helps people to expand range and that is a strong message at TVS... and here I am, seemingly saying its not important... You guys have mis-interpreted the context... Im not saying that its not important to sing high notes or that its not cool to sing a C6... it is... Im only trying to help Steven, who BTW... was a student of mine and lives in Seattle, WA, so I know Steven personally ... by pointing out what I feel is a perspective that will help him...

I see singers spending a lot of time too often worrying about "whistle notes" and sending me emails on how to sing a C7 whistle and stuff like that... OK, ITS COOL.. its certainly interesting, I just think some people need to focus on notes that they are going to actually need more frequently. Im simply suggesting that we train on the notes that we are going to need the most when applying to the art.

My question was not to belittle Steven's request, it was just to get him thinking a bit about it.

In regards to "profits" Martin.... Its obvious your implying to me. Listen, I dont make big profits... I barely pay my bills... but what I do make... is a lot of people happy and provide a great service that gets results...

So who IS making "profits" in this business Martin? Ill tell you who... your hero, Cathrine Sadolin from CVI...You would have to be making HUGE profits to be able to afford that office she has in downtown Copenhagen that I have been to three times... And you know what, thats ok! Again, anyone that provides a service that is helping people achieve their dreams and goals in the business of music... that can make a little profit, god bless 'em...

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