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Lip Trills Counterproductive

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Hey all, don't mean to cause a ruckus since I do believe lip trills are GOOD warmups and cooldown. However, I have found out that they are counterproductive to ACTUAL singing

Think about it.... how much air is required to sing? How much is required for lip rolls? Now i'm not saying abandon lip trills but for someone like me who has trouble holding back air... is there not a better approach?

A quote from Jack Li Vigni an operatic tenor:

"You don’t push air through the cords to create flow. This is why I do not advocate certain exercises meant to increase air flow, like lip trills. I think they could be good but these encourage a sense of flow through the cords, this pernicious idea of the Bernoulli Effect. The gain is not worth the risk. If the Bernoulli Effect has any relevance to singing, which scientists are now backpedaling, it is certainly in the context of firm glottal closure and not of loose dark singing. Any teacher advocating a dark loose sound where you let the breath go, where there is no sense of narrowness in the sound, well… you shouldn’t listen to these people."

What are some good alternatives to lip rolls besides tongue trills? Which I find work a little better for me and use less air :)

By the way... HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone. :D

- JayMC

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Hey all, don't mean to cause a ruckus since I do believe lip trills are GOOD warmups and cooldown. However, I have found out that they are counterproductive to ACTUAL singing

Think about it.... how much air is required to sing? How much is required for lip rolls? Now i'm not saying abandon lip trills but for someone like me who has trouble holding back air... is there not a better approach?

A quote from Jack Li Vigni an operatic tenor:

"You don’t push air through the cords to create flow. This is why I do not advocate certain exercises meant to increase air flow, like lip trills. I think they could be good but these encourage a sense of flow through the cords, this pernicious idea of the Bernoulli Effect. The gain is not worth the risk. If the Bernoulli Effect has any relevance to singing, which scientists are now backpedaling, it is certainly in the context of firm glottal closure and not of loose dark singing. Any teacher advocating a dark loose sound where you let the breath go, where there is no sense of narrowness in the sound, well… you shouldn’t listen to these people."

What are some good alternatives to lip rolls besides tongue trills? Which I find work a little better for me and use less air :)

By the way... HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone. :D

- JayMC

Well, Michael Jackson did lip trills at the beginning of his workouts.

And since he is the "Immortal One", you can't argue with him. :)

If you have trouble doing lip trills, just press your cheeks with your thumb and pointing finger.

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I wonder what Senore Li Vigni means by "loose, dark singing"? What does he mean by that and why is it to be avoided?

As for the Bernoulli effect, really, a person should have a solid grasp of basic physics to talk about that but it's okay to have layman opinions. After all, I don't know much about singing and I talk about it all the time. :lol:

Perhaps Li Vigni had a problem with lip trills or found them boring. And felt the need to justify his rejection of them. One could always warm up like Ronnie James Dio. A beer and an interview.

( I need a devil smiley right here. or just \m/ )

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I think the whole purpose of lip trills is to keep from overblowing the folds and thinning the folds. It also helps condition the inner workings of the voicebox at a deeper level without the use of external muscles. Take the explanations from Seth Riggs not from other teachers. He seems to explain the purpose better than others.

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I think M is right. Just the same, I don't do lip trills, as a rule, though I am not, I repeat, not justifying Li Vigni's comments or even the subject matter of this thread.

Like Owen, I prefer more resonant warm-ups, when I do warm-ups. Either ng sound or the v sound. It's been said that lip trills can teach you proper breath support. But I think it's just one tool in an arsenal of tools. Find the one that works for you. If it's lip trills, great. Tongue trills, wonderful. Resonant tracking, excellent. Or "engaging the core," does wonders for others.

It can be too easy to get into "my dog is better because he gets Ken-L Ration". If it works for you, so be it.

Jack Black did lip trills and it worked for him.

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Any exercise is as good as how you do it. Ask yourself why am I doing this exercise, and measure the result according to your set expectation.

Generally I found a lot of people just liptrill one way and sing completely different. Then they are frustrated and say it doesn't help. How about just approaching the liptrill the way you were going to sing it?

Personally, I like liptrilling through songs just to isolate the breathing part of it. Once I feel I found the right breathflow for the song, it allows me to approach the song more confidently.

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Just giving a shout out to El. I haven't seen you post in a while. I hope everything is well and good with you.

I always remember my step-grandfather's warm-up that he taught me, as a joke.

on a single note, "me, me, me. You, you, you. Us, us, us ...."

I guess that's not helping much.

:/

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I think the whole purpose of lip trills is to keep from overblowing the folds and thinning the folds. It also helps condition the inner workings of the voicebox at a deeper level without the use of external muscles. Take the explanations from Seth Riggs not from other teachers. He seems to explain the purpose better than others.

MDEW: The lip trills are pretty good to help a large and/or low voice to keep from clenching when first learning to let the folds thin. But, rather than keeping from overblowing, they encourage a light adduction and light-mass with a falsetto-ish registration, what might be called a Neutral with air if we were using CVT terms. Put another way, it uses the airflow and the light semi-occlusion to get a less muscular style of phonation going. IMO, very useful for certain types of heavy and low voices early in training. Less useful later on.

I hope this is helpful.

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MDEW: The lip trills are pretty good to help a large and/or low voice to keep from clenching when first learning to let the folds thin. But, rather than keeping from overblowing, they encourage a light adduction and light-mass with a falsetto-ish registration, what might be called a Neutral with air if we were using CVT terms. Put another way, it uses the airflow and the light semi-occlusion to get a less muscular style of phonation going. IMO, very useful for certain types of heavy and low voices early in training. Less useful later on.

I hope this is helpful.

Thanks Steven. I have trouble putting my thoughts into words.

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Just giving a shout out to El. I haven't seen you post in a while. I hope everything is well and good with you.

I always remember my step-grandfather's warm-up that he taught me, as a joke.

on a single note, "me, me, me. You, you, you. Us, us, us ...."

I guess that's not helping much.

:/

Yeah ;> Made my move to the US to be with my wife ;> New life, new location, life caught up on me a bit.

That and studying opera 4 nights a week and occasionally performing, phew, it can be a lot.

But I'm still lurking around the corner ready to help people ;P

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i like lip bubbles as a gentle warmup and warmdown.......i feel a nice vibration which can be very soothing to tired folds.

i personally think it's a nice range builder because it encourages (as steve said) less clenching and gripping.

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