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Breathing into the back/ribs

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What helped me the most on this is something that Felipe introduced on this board.

You sit down on a chair and hunch forward. I like to keep my hand together and put them in between my legs and also downward and just let them hang in front of the chair. This position shortens your abs and elongates your back so naturally the breath will be more back and lateral. This is also the most important exercise I have done for understanding the lateral rib expansion. Take a low breath in from this position and have it be a sucking motion. A good thing to do at first is to suck in as much air as you can and then pause and then take in even more, then after that do it one more time after another pause. You should be able to take in a massive amount of air and still feel free in the throat. Just remember that this is a training tool and not to directly apply this at first to regular singing because it will involve too much pressure for you to be able to control since it is a newer coordination and feeling for you. With time (And not that much time) you will start to notice easier lateral rib expansion and the breath in the back more without actively trying to apply the new type of coordination.

Felipe, feel free to correct me if I missed anything on this.

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Hello!

Consumming just adding a bit ok?

Its not a good idea to overdo the pressure as I proposed on that thread as a trainning exercise, its best to use that just to get a picture of the increased potential, the idea on there was more to understand it not really trainning, a more healthy approach is just doing low breathing and trying to focus on the expansion movement rather than the intake of air. if you feel ANY discomfort please stop and take it slowly.

Owen it depends on what is being done... But considering that the author words on brathing being the hardest thing, I think it would actually be best to just relax more first.

On the OP: "Breathing is the hardest thing" is a very bad sign man. I advice that you begin by finding a deep and low breathing pattern, relaxing and trying to release air, instead of forcing it when singing before attempting anything else. Its the absolute basis for this idea to work. Until your breathing is low and deep, dont worry about expanding ribs or anything else, consolidate it until you can do it whenever you want with ease.

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Just a few things on breathing that I experienced in the past:

1. Don't think about breathing while singing, this usually creates too much tension in some of your torso muscles, just do excercises to get used to a deep pattern, but don't think about it while singing.

2. While you always have to breathe deep of course, something that doesn't get mentioned often is that you also can breathe "too deep" for certain applications. Opera singers for example breathe really really deep and make full use of appoggio. This gives you great "air power". However, breathing that deep can also limit your range because it tends to make you flip into falsetto at around the 2nd passaggio. This is also why opera singers usually don't use the highest parts of their range, it just doesn't work with their singing style and breathing pattern.

That said, from my own experience I can tell you: Don't think too much about breathing. Just make sure you don't breathe high. A good indicator for this is, that your shoulder don't move up while breathing in. In terms of support in my opinion it is more useful to start out with some "intrinsic anchoring" technique and learn the "deep breathing" and "appoggio"-techniques later, when you are already good with your larynx coordination.

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Hello!

Consumming just adding a bit ok?

Its not a good idea to overdo the pressure as I proposed on that thread as a trainning exercise, its best to use that just to get a picture of the increased potential, the idea on there was more to understand it not really trainning, a more healthy approach is just doing low breathing and trying to focus on the expansion movement rather than the intake of air. if you feel ANY discomfort please stop and take it slowly.

Owen it depends on what is being done... But considering that the author words on brathing being the hardest thing, I think it would actually be best to just relax more first.

On the OP: "Breathing is the hardest thing" is a very bad sign man. I advice that you begin by finding a deep and low breathing pattern, relaxing and trying to release air, instead of forcing it when singing before attempting anything else. Its the absolute basis for this idea to work. Until your breathing is low and deep, dont worry about expanding ribs or anything else, consolidate it until you can do it whenever you want with ease.

Do you like the feeling to be out and down? I have gotten very good at maintaining the expansion but until I started also thinking down recently I was still starting the air with my throat I believe.

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Do you like the feeling to be out and down? I have gotten very good at maintaining the expansion but until I started also thinking down recently I was still starting the air with my throat I believe.

This is quite exactly what I meant with my post. If you start thinking "too deep" or too much down it easily happens that you breath in too much air, which is harder to control. The other possibility is that you support too much and don't have enough airflow, which makes your folds collapse or go into fry mode.

Breathing really deep works well with a low larynx position (just as in classical music). It doesn't work as good with a higher larynx position and stronger twang, which is common in contemporary music.

At least from my experience, in contemporary styles it is more useful to think about "keeping up expansion of the torso" instead of "holding back breath in your lower back".

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Consuming. Yes, low and "hollow" ( thats how I feel, it may vary). More stable and easier, not to mention much more air to use. Did you get my email the other day?

benny not necessarily. Support should be trainned to follow your intentions, not as a static thing, trainning in different situations and conditions so that whatever the intention and posture you are using, it follows accordingly.

If you train it as fundament, but you try to consolidate static postures regarding larynx height associated with it, you will kill your freedom instead of actually trainning the fundament.

Expanding the back render results because it allows more pressure, and it is necessary. But it can easily turn against you, if you dont take care, you will just pull chest up and thats not optimal either. So please, prety please, carefull and dont take the brute force approach, even if you are looking for power, thats not the way for powerfull singing. Power comes from ballance of the fundaments. If you rely just on support, you will compromise quality, power and resistance. If in doubt or if not sure if what you are doing is correct, orientation.

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well, i'm a support fanatic, and my opinion is just another that has worked wonders for me.

stand up straight and physically try to expand the entire area of your lower core all around you, back, sides, front, back, all of it. once it is expanded, (ultimately, in time) you want to be able to hold it there for 30 seconds while you breathe in and out and keep everything above tension free.

don't let the lower core contract or cave in...let your muscles keep the outer expansion nice and firm.

this will take time to develop, but the development you get will help you control your exhalation really well. in the beginning it will difficult to keep the expansion firm below, even without the breathing, but with practise you will get it.

just make it something you do during the day..don't formalize it...expand, hold 30 seconds, release...let's say you're watching tv.....expand, hold it out 30 seconds, release......

follow?

in time the lower core will feel like it's stretching 5 inches around, instead of an inch. you will be amazed at the reserve power and control you will develop.

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"Singers are professional breathers" - Dr Fillebrown.

The most important thing is to relax on inhale, control the exhale.

A coach told me, think of the lungs as being in the stomach. Of course, I repeated that here, to various responses. And everyone is so much smarter than I am. So, I will just leave it to the experts and keep doing what I am doing.

So, what does everyone think of Lou Gramm's technique with the shoulder heave that he does? Is it incorrect breathing or movement to display emotion, to make the note look tougher?

Discuss ,,,,,

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Owen it sounds nice man. Hollow inside is very different than simply trying to expand muscles, you will find that the muscles move if you just try to expand them, but its this idea of giving room that allows the air to come in. The important thing is that after you get this going, the air must have pressure to come out on its own, like you are actually holding it back from comming out quickly.

ronws, that you have to ask to Lou Gramm. But it may very well be just an interpretative thing he does, singing everything with a "nothing happening" face is really not the way to go when performing. Trainning is one thing, singing is another.

And there are more extreme applications that will involve clavicular breathing, but trainning this is a bit too much in my opinion. To sing above the tessitura for example in full voice, or to use the kind of belting that actually uses chest registration instead of emulating the vowel colors. Not that hard after the basics are going, does not require any kind of specific trainning, but then you are going outside the safety area.

The more its controled and comfortable on the tessitura, the more smooth and easy the coordination is, the easier it is to use this kind of screams or effects at will.

I find that intercostal expasion is more than enough in pretty much everything aside from very few effect spots on songs.

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Owen to make it more interesting, create a lot of pressure with the intercostal expansion, and then release it slowly and gently without letting the muscles collapse. It will add to the difficutly. With an SS you emulate the resistance of the larynx on the process.

Thats what makes the difference on head voice. If you dont create pressure the exercise is easy but then it does not have enough potential to power your voice on that area.

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Believe it or not, Felipe, I agree with you about Lou Gramm. I think it is a dramatic gesture having nothing to do with his actual breath support but someone else seemed to think it mattered and I thought I would throw that red herring out there.

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it's not used for dramatic effect...

i asked ken tamplin about the lou gramm shoulder thing (he can be seen doing it too sometimes).

it's used to relieve tension that might build up during the song. you see some of it used with that nick petera guy too..

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