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Which programs are the most useful for singers?

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leezuh
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I have heard of all of these programs: TVS, CVT, jaime vendera's program, ken tamplin's program, Brett Manning's program...

Are there any other ones out there that are helpful? If you've tried any of them, what did they help you with the most?

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Hey Leezuh.

I am on the four pillars program which is definitely a work out, but I did find recently Anne Peckham's Vocal workouts for the contemporary singer. Pretty good stuff in there.

Before all that, I did the singing for the stars program. Got nowhere...

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Threads about comparison of the singing systems never work out well.

Find the one that uses words and concepts you understand and work with that. Granted, it would be nice to have sample texts. But, really, if you just read the threads around here, you will get a general idea of how each system approaches something. Pick the one that makes the most sense to you.

All that being said, I have found that the best singer training system is to strike a deal with Satan to have the "folds of destiny."

:D

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People have their different tastes. I am squarely in the CVT camp, it's one of the only methods where I can personally actually understand what people are trying to say.

Another good program is Audacity or another sound recording program, so you can listen back to yourself. Quite handy. :)

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I definately would like to hear what others have to say. But I like TVS because its very noob-friendly and doesn't beat around the bush. He basically says this is the passaggio... build the foundations to bridge and connect... then bridge and connect =)

Some other books are useful too, I have Richard Millers book the Structure of Singing and Vendera's book called Raise Your Voice, I am looking in to purchasing CVT or KTVA and when I can afford it the Voice Of the Mind by Herbert Caesari. (If anyone has input on these please pm me or reply here).

It's not really about what programs work, it's about what programs work for YOU. SLS didn't really work for me and seemed overly commercial lacking info on twang/support/dampening that really became more clear to me after exercising with TVS.

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We have seen this question before and I think the membership here has done a nice job being fair to all programs. There are a LOT of great books and training information out there and super talented teachers.

You have to consider the following factors in my opinion. As a professional in this business and from the perspective of the consumer.

- Is there actually a training methodology, or is it just a collection of good ideas and tips without cohesion?

- Is there a book that has been published and is the outcome of research, hard work and scholarly ambition... that also gives you more value?

- Are there viable vocalize (vocal workouts). Training content you can actually use to train with and practice?

- Is there good solid science in regards to the physiology of human phonation and acoustics in the program?

- Does the program teach its concepts with the benefit of using vocal modes?

- Can and does the author/producer perform and demonstrate their own workouts, lessons and have some measure of credibility in terms of their ability to execute what they are teaching to others?

- What is the customer service like?

When I factor these points and make a priority list, I have to say I would recommend the following, in this order.

- TVS (The Four Pillars of Singing)

- CVI

I honestly believe, these are the two leading programs/schools in the world today that have almost everything you need and would expect to have... and will get results.

If you master the concepts in these two programs you will have the best science of singing, the best collection of workout content, two great books (lots of content) and two very credible, proven programs that are training singers all over the world every day. You will also have methodology in your hands, to hasten the time to getting progress and make things easier to understand.

Still great products would be:

Kevin Richards

KTVA

Jaime Vendera

The second group are all world-class pros that you will learn from and know their craft like anyone in the first list! This is only based on my personal and professional opinion.

The advise you are getting here not only from me, but from the other members is founded on really solid experience. I know these guys, they have been on this forum for years and training for a long time.

BTW... you can download a copy of the Table of Contents from the TVS "Four Pillars of Singing" in my signature if you would like to get a view of the concepts we cover in the program... or watch a video where I share some features and benefits of "The Four Pillars of Singing"..... Sorry if if sounds like Im shamefully self promoting myself folks... I am actually motivated to help this individual beyond my own gain here...

I hope this helps Leezuh...

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I definately would like to hear what others have to say. But I like TVS because its very noob-friendly and doesn't beat around the bush. He basically says this is the passaggio... build the foundations to bridge and connect... then bridge and connect =)

Some other books are useful too, I have Richard Millers book the Structure of Singing and Vendera's book called Raise Your Voice, I am looking in to purchasing CVT or KTVA and when I can afford it the Voice Of the Mind by Herbert Caesari. (If anyone has input on these please pm me or reply here).

It's not really about what programs work, it's about what programs work for YOU. SLS didn't really work for me and seemed overly commercial lacking info on twang/support/dampening that really became more clear to me after exercising with TVS.

JayMC I have Herbert Caesari's book, "The Voice of the Mind"... and it had a huge influence on me and TVS pedagogy. There are a few KEY concepts in TVS that had their original source of inspiration from this book. For example, the popular TVS "lift up / pull back" technique that is used to train the timing and coordination of bridging as well as train the body to stop constricting through the passaggio... was a concept wholly inspired by this book.

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It all depends on what you feel you need to know in order to achieve your goals.

If you are like me, and don't need to understanding the workings of the voice and it's terminology, but want to Sing to the best of your ability... Then I'd recommend KTVA (from what I see in the demos and reviews - users)

If you want to sing, and do care about all the terminology and technical reading about the voice - then TVS / CVI...

Jaime Vendera is good - if you want to break glass (since that's what he keeps talking about it - big deal).. and Keith Richards, have range, but their tone is not that good to my ears... At least not compared to the aforementioned.

SLS singing is okay, if you don't have balls ;-).. joking... it's good for a particular genre base (Soul, RnB, etc)..

SS is all around bad, for what I see and hear... Unless you enjoy marketing more then singing... They will also sell you a can you can spray on your head to make you look like you have rock hair ;-)

So, it's all about what you want to do..

In the end, it's up to you how you will turn it around and where you want to go with your singing... .

The more intense the product, the more dedication you need to do it..

d.

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bottom half on this, well said david.

i would also like to recommend the youtube videos of teachers like dan formica, mark baxter and dave brooks.

they have a down-to-earth way of explaining things that you just end up "getting it."

or they give you a different perspective on things.

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I feel the need to point out that while TVS and CVT are both very good products, they do not teach exactly equivalent material. Sometimes they teach the same concepts but in different words, but a lot of the time they teach different concepts that will lead you to sing differently depending on what you choose.

The main difference is that TVS has a strong emphasis on bridging, which is going from "chest voice" to "head voice" at a certain pitch, and then making the head voice sound chesty. In CVT, this would be termed as switching from overdrive to metal-like neutral at a certain pitch and then using MLN on higher pitches. This is a fine approach, but it is ONE approach out of many possible choices.

If you like the sound that TVS teaches, then you'll find A LOT more detail on it in TVS than you will in CVT - in the latter, MLN is just sort of mentioned. But if you prefer a different kind of sound, like Stevie Wonderish curbing, TVS doesn't really cover that.

I took a few lessons with Rob once and by no means am I an expert on TVS (or much, really) but when I did do a few quality sirens with Rob (out of many attempts!!!) the feeling of the high note is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the way I approach high notes now. There are different ways to approach them, TVS is covers one/a few of those ways in great depth, whereas CVT will teach you all of the ways but perhaps in less depth.

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I, too, have the tendency to believe more those who can walk the walk, as well as talk the talk. Go to youtube and see which of the teachers have performed or recorded something. Most especially, performance in front of a live audience, half of whom are probably half-inebriated and don't hesitate to applaud or boo. The unforgiving, the great unwashed. The "public." (scary, ominous gong sounding in the back .....zhzhzhzhzhzhzhzh)

That being said, I supposed it's possible to teach without having a professional singing career but I, in all of my flaws and personality defects, prefer teachers who have actually done the thing we want to do. There's training, then there's singing in front of people. So, who can train you so solidly that even if you get some butterflies performing in front of others, your technique is in the background and carries you?

And it's not so much a matter of audience size. If that were it, then Formica and Tamplin have played to the biggest audiences I can see on youtube. But Kevin Richards, Robert Lunte, they have certainly played to smaller venues. In front of real people, not just singing to the camera, though that has advantages for those of us who could not be there.

Some systems approach a wide variety of singers. Some wish to cater to all, from the casual church or karaoke singer to the pro. Then there's people like Rob Lunte, even Ken Tamplin, who are training you to be on stage, singing. 'Cause I tell you what - there's a difference of hearing yourself in your room or even through headphone monitoring while recording. It's another thing to hear yourself in a 400 watt pa system in a club. Or louder, like in a performance hall. You need to get comfortable with that and train for that. That's your work environment if you are going to a pro singer. Get used to it. Who trains that? I wonder? ;)

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Results... Look at the results. Thats the only thing that matters. Are the results something you would like for your voice? Are you really considering singing? As in listenning and being really connected to what you hear, or are you just looking for range or pieces of what you think is technique and letting the most important part of it, singing, aside?

If not, the person/program cannot teach you. Technical trainning requires that you seek the results being presented, it requires you to trust the source, because many exercises will seem pointless, or too easy, or too basic, or too "foolish" or whatever, and many things you will have to do will go against your natural reaction to it, simply because if it was natural for you, you would not need to learn.

I keep reading non-sense like how approaches to a particular part of the fundaments are done, it does not matter! As long as the fundaments are working, if you train head registration with falsetto, whistling, air puffs, or whatever, as long as it consolidates the notion of what the registration IS in terms of an action mapped, and this is one of the most difficult parts to get down, its awesome.

Actually two things to look for, comfort and results. Uncomfortable singing you can do on your own, and its healthier than doing procedures to strain on different ways. Comfortable singing, besides being the main source of quality, feels awesome.

I would not think twice: between a teacher that says that knows techniques like this and that, and knows the old scrolls of ancient knowledge of the viking singers (applied using quantum-physics modelling of course), but sings using a lot of strain and with results that fail to match the proposal. And a person who does not use tons of terminology and sings well and in a comfortable way (sings well as in makes you actually want to hear the person singing). The later will surely be able to teach me much more than the first. Always. And Id say that in the later case, no matter how technically competent you are, you can always tap in the musicianship and learn.

You can place the number of names of famous singers you want behind it, cant sing, cant teach. Better learn from the famous names if thats what matters.

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We live in a time that is unique in the history of vocal techniques for singing. Rarely, if ever, has mankind had more innovative and advanced techniques available to learn how to sing. This is a very unique time in the history of vocal technique development.

There are a lot of great coaches, all will teach you something that will help you to sing better. They are all really talented, world-class coaches.

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I, too, have the tendency to believe more those who can walk the walk, as well as talk the talk. Go to youtube and see which of the teachers have performed or recorded something. Most especially, performance in front of a live audience, half of whom are probably half-inebriated and don't hesitate to applaud or boo. The unforgiving, the great unwashed. The "public." (scary, ominous gong sounding in the back .....zhzhzhzhzhzhzhzh)

Would you only go to a doctor that could prove that he had recovered from many diseases himself, or would you look on statistics on his/hers patients? :)

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I feel the need to point out that while TVS and CVT are both very good products, they do not teach exactly equivalent material. Sometimes they teach the same concepts but in different words, but a lot of the time they teach different concepts that will lead you to sing differently depending on what you choose.

The main difference is that TVS has a strong emphasis on bridging, which is going from "chest voice" to "head voice" at a certain pitch, and then making the head voice sound chesty. In CVT, this would be termed as switching from overdrive to metal-like neutral at a certain pitch and then using MLN on higher pitches. This is a fine approach, but it is ONE approach out of many possible choices.

If you like the sound that TVS teaches, then you'll find A LOT more detail on it in TVS than you will in CVT - in the latter, MLN is just sort of mentioned. But if you prefer a different kind of sound, like Stevie Wonderish curbing, TVS doesn't really cover that.

I took a few lessons with Rob once and by no means am I an expert on TVS (or much, really) but when I did do a few quality sirens with Rob (out of many attempts!!!) the feeling of the high note is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the way I approach high notes now. There are different ways to approach them, TVS is covers one/a few of those ways in great depth, whereas CVT will teach you all of the ways but perhaps in less depth.

eggplant, how many lessons did you have with me? If you are referring to the bridging manuevars we were doing during your first or second lesson, we were only building coordination and timing with 'lift up / pull back" technique and no doubt, working on other aspects of your phonation package such as your embouchure, larynx dampening, tuning the vowel and other things. Cutting to the chase, you can't judge TVS bridging on a few lessons when you were a beginner to the technique.

Had you remained in my tutelage you would likely be bridging with incredible power and stability by now. You would be working a lot on strengthening M1 musculature with specialized onsets and getting very strong intrinsic musculature through your passaggio and M2...

TVS students who are trained in the methodology can make just about any sound they want to make Egg. The training system and methodology works with both light and medium mass singing... as well as early and later bridging techniques, its all in there. If we only had like three lessons, you didn't really train TVS. How many lessons did we have Egg? Mind sharing who you are so I can trigger my memory of our work together?

Great to have you as a student, let me know if you have any questions regarding your training.

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Here is my student and TVS Teacher, Randy Loran, laying down some Journey... just an upland rehearsal moment. He is working out the set for a Journey Tribute project... BTW... this is light mass and early bridging... for a tenor. Randy has been with me for about 7 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_f7en7qReQ

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Though I feel like TVS opening up to more variation of technique/sonic colors is a new thing. Back in early 2012 TVS was indeed still rather focused on one kind of sound, like eggplantbren said. There was definitely an undeniable favoritism toward early bridging and open vowels.

But not anymore. TVS is probably the fastest growing vocal method out there. Whatever criticism you had about it six months ago is likely no longer applicable now. That tends to be true at any particular point in time.

That's why skype lessons are great. You're always getting the newest cutting edge TVS material.

Not only do I appreciate you making that point from the perspective of a real TVS student that is seriously training TVS with me, and I think is actually qualified to comment on TVS in this way... it simply is the truth...

2012 was a HUGE growth year for TVS ... I have to say, I have to give some credit to Dante and some of the guys on this forum for inspiring me to start thinking about building more musculature inside of M2... I became convinced that targeting certain muscles in the voice in creative and isolated ways, would produce a 'beefier' M2 phonation. It was just a matter of 'hitting the weights'... So, I developed the 7 Specialized Onsets to manipulate the intrinsic muscles and coordinations into configurations that would build more muscle... on top of that, we up'd our game on respiration at TVS last year by introducing Appoggio techniques. The combination of better respiration and more muscularity in the voice, especially through the passaggio and into the head voice... aided by the 7 Specialized Onsets I developed has proven to be a huge win. Just ask Owen, who actually had a front row seat and watched these concepts come together of the course of the year... in fact, Owen was probably one of my top 'lab rats' to test these techniques and ideas... My students sounded great before... but now... after working with them to develop more muscularity and better respiration... they sound really huge and boomy! Students that were struggling for too long, suddenly put it all together with these new specialized onsets... Training specialized onsets has definitely become part of the 'core' of TVS Methodology.

And its not just my students... my own voice is sounding really beefy now... more beefy then the past... but if i want to throttle back the mass and sing more lightly like the Journey video I posted above, I can. I haven't lost any of the lighter mass sounds, I have only gained more beefy and boomy tones to my palette of color choices.

Anyways, ya... I stepped up for my students, teachers and for myself in 2012 and it resulted in big advances in more musculature, coordination and belty sounding M2s for everyone. Thanks for chiming in with that Owen...

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rob,

we know randy is good, (i've heard him do touchin' lovin') but with these acoustics and the live room it's hard to tell what he truly sounds like on this.

Well Bob, its just a rehearsal room recording... but I don't think its hard to hear anything. It seems perfectly clear to me what he is doing and sounds decent for an iphone.

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Hi Rob,

I'm sorry if I appear to have misinterpreted TVS based on a few beginner lessons and forum posts. I know you've worked a lot on improving it and putting more things in there for your more advanced students. There are certain things that I haven't heard you use in songs or teach in training videos, but that of course doesn't mean you don't know about them or know how to teach them to students who want them (I am not thinking of things like death metal grunting here, but things like the medium volume/intensity, crying sound on the narrower vowels, CVT curbing basically).

I do have a personal preference away from bridging-based pedagogy though, as I wasn't very successful with it. Maybe I would have been if I'd had more lessons with you and less with SLS. Obviously it works for many people though!

BTW I'm the Australian guy who lived in California and probably seemed pretty odd.

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Egg, all pedagogies content with bridging in their own ways... so don't now try to pigeon hole me into a "bridging based pedagogy". At this point, you probably had 1 or 3 lessons with me, you really are not qualified what so ever to begin classifying TVS as "this" or "that" or has 'this" or didn't do 'that' for you... Until you actually train TVS in a serious way and knock out a good 10-12 sessions with me, and thus know more about what TVS is and what we are doing, do me the favor of leaving the conclusions to those that have actually trained TVS... I don't want to sound 'snarky' here, but in a forum discussion that is about the sensitive topic of "this program vs that program"... Let's keep it real... to people that are actually my students.

You had no more then what, 1 or 3 lessons with me... and then went on to train SLS? Just leave it to Owen and Jens and people that have done the program bud... thanks.

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