Would it be correct to classify rappers as "singers" by definition?

[chamcham]

My favorite rapper (R.I.P.):

More emotion in his lyrics than any other rapper I know, and he was a decent singer, too. Also the only artist to get a number 1 chart hit in the U.S. with a song in German language.

Every time I hear the words "German music". I think of "Engel" by "Rammstein".

And it reminds me of an anime music video for Evangelion:

[benny82]

Yeah, Rammstein lyrics are often pretty much somewhere in the middle between rap and singing. Something like speech-singing.

[chamcham]

Rap is often associated with the MPC. More so than the keyboard or piano.

Here's an extensive documentary on rap producers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibac3vaWP04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJi0euGh9Dw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaJgwnbXJyY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2z7XrcOX-g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yYjZs5pTSo

[Felipe Carvalho]

Yes, no, maybe.

What difference does it make? So that we can say that one or another person is not a singer?

if screamming stuff without control is singing, rapping is too. To me, someone that uses just 2 notes and have control over them is a better singer than people who try to do fancy stuff and fail, dont deliver.

[VideoHere]

hymm......

[MDEW]

One mans Rap is another mans song.

[Validar]

Well let's put it this way, if one ONLY raps...on a business card, would they give themselves the title singer or rapper? Rapper, of course.

If they both sing and rap, then it's whatever is more significant to them in their mind. In that case they can call themselves a rapper, a singer, or both.

Here's where it gets interesting. A lead vocalist that only screams. If they couldn't put vocalist, would they be more likely to put "singer" or "screamer" on their business card? Probably singer. To them, somehow, screaming is a form of singing. And I believe that is an acceptable mindset in the world of heavy music...somehow

But, we have different words for them for different reasons. Singing is not rapping is not screaming. But a vocalist may do any or all of these things. Can't go wrong with the title of vocalist.

And there we go. So, I would say classification does indeed matter, though some have an unexplainable disdain for it, apparently.

[Guest]

Gotta tell you boys, if I heard someone trying to categorically reject rapping as a form of singing, I might not think it was racist, but I would think it was suspiciously exclusionary, and that might make me wonder what a person stood to gain in keeping a population out of their little club. I'm totally not trying to be a dick, Validar, just elucidating the thought process that I'm sure a lot of us are going through.

That said, I would definitely consider rap singing. I'm sure there are virtuoso tap dancers who turn up their noses when some kid krumping calls himself a hoofer, just as I'm sure some painters sneer at Jackson Pollock, but we as a culture owe a lot more to those artists than we do to snooty traditionalists.

[Validar]

Gotta tell you boys, if I heard someone trying to categorically reject rapping as a form of singing, I might not think it was racist, but I would think it was suspiciously exclusionary, and that might make me wonder what a person stood to gain in keeping a population out of their little club. I'm totally not trying to be a dick, Validar, just elucidating the thought process that I'm sure a lot of us are going through.

That said, I would definitely consider rap singing. I'm sure there are virtuoso tap dancers who turn up their noses when some kid krumping calls himself a hoofer, just as I'm sure some painters sneer at Jackson Pollock, but we as a culture owe a lot more to those artists than we do to snooty traditionalists.

It's really not a matter of excluding out of snootiness. I think of it as simply identifying something as what it is and isn't. My friend was presented with the question of whether he liked rap, and explained why he didn't. He could have very well lied just to placate the other friend, but he gave his honest opinion, which I have more respect for of the two. He was neither tactless or condescending about it. One can very well be musically diverse, yet have genres that don't appeal to them.

In Owen's post, he spoke of what one might put on their business card if they were strictly a rapper. Wouldn't there be a greater level of expectation if this person were to use the word "singer" as opposed to "rapper" on the card? I honestly believe so, and as I said, it's not out of a desire to exclude anyone.

[Guest]

I'm with you on that, it'd be very weird for a rapper to just put "singer" on a business card. I don't suppose you've heard the single of the new Snoop "Lion" album? He reinvented himself as a reggae guy, so he sings a little and it's hilarious.

[Guest]

Rapping is a form of poetry... but no one calls it "poetry" similarly even IF rapping was a form of singing (which it might in fact be) we still wouldn't call it singing.

Ding! :D

[MDEW]

If I advertised for a singer and a person who only raps showed up I would have to tell him that he/she is not what I advertised for. Then again I would also have to specify what genre I was advertising for.

[Guest]

MDEW, that's legit, but what if like a rabbi showed up? Or a yodler? Or tom waits? They might not fit the bill, but you can't just say outright that they're not singers. In some cases it's a cultural thing, in some it's a matter of taste and perspective, but I'd say a singer is anyone that calls themselves a singer.

[Validar]

I'm with you on that, it'd be very weird for a rapper to just put "singer" on a business card. I don't suppose you've heard the single of the new Snoop "Lion" album? He reinvented himself as a reggae guy, so he sings a little and it's hilarious.

Well, that my point. A rapper may very well think of "rapper" and "singer" as synonymous, and may opt to use the word on his cards, which raised my question of whether or not this is correct. I would find it a misrepresentation, myself. "Singer" implies far less limitations than the word "rapper", which in itself refers to the genre specifically.

but I'd say a singer is anyone that calls themselves a singer.

I'm not sure I understand this. I can call myself an auto mechanic for putting a new tail light bulb in or putting air in my tires, but let me assure you, I am the last guy in the world you want to call if you break down. Most women know more about cars than I do (sad to say), and I would be utterly useless to you.

[Guest]

I should rephrase, how about this: a singer is anyone that calls themselves a singer and believes it. I mean, on a business card you're going for clarity and concision, so if a rapper wrote "singer" I wouldn't think they were mistaken, I'd just think they're ineffective communicators. A parallel example, if a singers card just said "artist", I'd think they were pretty dumb too.

EDIT: I guess all I mean is that whether or not one is a singer is a matter of culture, taste and perspective, not one of criteria. Hell of an interesting discussion, either way!

[ronws]

Here's another favorite rap song of mine. Well, the vocal line starts out as rap, anyway. And the funky slap bass helps, too.

Is he rapping, singing, or both?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERTT_sv8sV0

[MDEW]

If I advertised for a singer and a person who only raps showed up I would have to tell him that he/she is not what I advertised for. Then again I would also have to specify what genre I was advertising for.

raphaelsToday 19:31:58

MDEW, that's legit, but what if like a rabbi showed up? Or a yodler? Or tom waits? They might not fit the bill, but you can't just say outright that they're not singers. In some cases it's a cultural thing, in some it's a matter of taste and perspective, but I'd say a singer is anyone that calls themselves a singer.

That's why I added the part about including the genre. ;)

[ronws]

Is this rapping?

[Felipe Carvalho]

haha...

Pop music is pop music, the style does not matter. Many of the singers really are not singers, they are just actors. Images being sold. And a good producer who knows how to make music out of almost anything.

Rap is a style of music, the person in front of it delivering a melody line with lyrics, using his voice as an instrument, be it a well worked melody or not, be it harmonic or not, is the singer. No you would not call someone that only knows that style to do another style. Is it so complicated? I need a guitarrist to play rock, so I will find someone that plays rock. Sure if I seek guitarrists, some that only play Bossa or Funk may show up, but thats not what I need.

No need to tell the guy that "hey if you cant play rock, you are not guitarrist". No he can play other stuff in his guitar.

I would like to know, define a singer to me please. What does a singer do that a rapper does not .

Eminem is a rapper, and hell, we can all take a few lessons on interpretation and dynamics with the guy. Thats how he would reffer to himself. A rapper is just a person who sings rap.

A rocker sings rock.

So on...

Again, what is the point?

[Validar]

Here's another favorite rap song of mine. Well, the vocal line starts out as rap, anyway. And the funky slap bass helps, too.

Is he rapping, singing, or both?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERTT_sv8sV0

I would venture to say both. However, anyone who is familiar with a lot Mike Patton's work is surely aware of how talented, unique and diverse he is. In this context, I can appreciate the rapping with the singing for the sake of contrast.

Many of the singers really are not singers, they are just actors.

Ok, and you have reached this deduction based on your own perception/definition of what a "singer" is, correct? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, yes?

Again, what is the point?

Well, at the very least, when one is confronted with the question of whether they like rap, I think it would help significantly if they don't like it, to present some actual information and reasoning rather than a simple "I hate rap because it just sucks.", and potentially be unfairly deemed a "racist" or closed minded.

Hell of an interesting discussion, either way!

I rarely make threads of my own (or post much in general anymore due to being hellaciously busy) but when I do, I try to make it thought-provoking. :)

[MDEW]

:| How about asking what genre you like and why. Or even Do you like Rap? Why do you feel that way?

My reason for not liking certain songs Rap or otherwise is usually the content or message. Pretty much the same thing that would make me like a song.

Genres seem to gravitate to a common theme. There are aspects to Rap that I do not particularly care for But it does not make it any less a valid form of music.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Not really something that I care about Validar, just to show how pointless all this is. And justifying tastes is a waste of time really. You wont like Rap if we could prove to you that its super refined technical work, neither you will convince anyone to not like it by showing them how its not singing...

Around here in my country there is something WAY worse, something that is based on actually not being musical in any way. Porn lyrics totally out of intonation, recorded in total disregard, including digital clipping. And these people are called singers...

And people actually like it. I dont, not because of what I say above, I dont relate to it. My taste.

I think Chris Cornell and Sebbastian Bach are amazing. I enjoy listenning to it, and both strainned their voices to death. I also like Ozzy and Dave Mustaine work.

As far as technique is concerned, its not singing, its wrong. But its my taste, I like listenning to it and it does not matter one bit to me or to them.

I always think that our obligation as students is to look for value and qualities, when possible of course. Im not saying that every rap is a source of musicianship. But there is worse, and there is material with value.

[slstone]

Rap is an old word, actually a slang word to describe talking. That's why its called rap, could label it as spoken word. Yes some rap is rythmic, but usually not melodic. Some people mix it up a bit. Look at old Kid Rock stuff, Linkin Park.

The Faith No More thing also mixed both into a rap/rock fusion.

The mention of screamo and death metal stuff, I don't call that singing either, mostly grunting into a vocal distortion box to try to sound demonic. If I want to hear a demonic voice, I will call my ex, lol.

I am not saying that it isn't entertaining or whether or not it has a place in the world of entertainment. It's not something I choose to listen too, but as others pointed out, it is it's own form of art.

I just wouldn't call it singing.

Example: American Idol is a singing competition. Has a rapper ever won a singing competition? just asking...

(Please note that no mention of race was mentioned in the above rant, thank you for listening).

[ronws]

If I want to hear a demonic voice, I will call my ex, lol.

Amen, my brother.

To others, my perogative. Inside family business, way too long a story, even for me.

:)

[chamcham]

Rap is an old word, actually a slang word to describe talking. That's why its called rap, could label it as spoken word. Yes some rap is rythmic, but usually not melodic. Some people mix it up a bit. Look at old Kid Rock stuff, Linkin Park.

The Faith No More thing also mixed both into a rap/rock fusion.

The mention of screamo and death metal stuff, I don't call that singing either, mostly grunting into a vocal distortion box to try to sound demonic. If I want to hear a demonic voice, I will call my ex, lol.

I am not saying that it isn't entertaining or whether or not it has a place in the world of entertainment. It's not something I choose to listen too, but as others pointed out, it is it's own form of art.

I just wouldn't call it singing.

Example: American Idol is a singing competition. Has a rapper ever won a singing competition? just asking...

(Please note that no mention of race was mentioned in the above rant, thank you for listening).

There was a rap group that made it through a few shows on X-Factor last year.

They were called LYRIC 145. To me, they were a welcome breath of fresh air from the other singing acts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyxpiy4JHNE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p6B0Z3QGcA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3GNy9Bczrk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRTrMm_HpeE

The girl with the eye patch in Lyric 145 reminds me of Lisa Lopez from TLC