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i thought you folks might like to know i started to read the cvt book and just got up to the modes chapter.

i agree with so much of what she says about the importance of support and the physical demands of singing. i'm really enjoying the read.

i like to read a lot to get multiple perspectives......plus, i like to find out if anybody thinks similar to me....lol!!!

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I think you like it because the "physical demands of singing" sounds like hard work.

:)

I often make light of that, I am sure. It's just all of my life has been "hard work" and so, I guess, I don't notice the difference.

To sidewind a little bit, when people talk about trying to sing with congestion or allergies or whatever, my first thought is "what?" Because I just sing anyway, regardless of whatever challenges. I am hopeless, I don't know how to stop singing. To others, it might seem like "work." Maybe some need to see it as "work," to justify the time and energy. Because if it wasn't work, they could not justify the time being spent.

I have no shame. I am going to sing, anyway. In public, no one has asked me to stop or go away. But, like I have said, I am tall and big and probably look scary and people just hope I go away, of my own accord.

Just imagine Toby Keith, but not as handsome.

:D

That's the secret to my public performance success. All you have to do is look like a Hell's Angel on probation with a new haircut.

:D

And I am drifting. Sure, singing is work. Anything we do, from a certain perspective, could be work.

I should just shut up, now.

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I also have and have read the entirety of the book from front to back (the newest edition). I think it's great; although the terminology is different I must say that CVT and 4 Pillars are definitely my go to sources for vocal information.

If you wouldn't mind me high-jacking your thread (if you do just tell me and I'll create a new thread), I've got a question or two (which I'm sure more will come as I practice more) for the CVT guys here:

Using the 4 Pillars method and terminology, I top out modally at around C6 or so, with A5 about the last place it still sounds "useable." Now when I was practicing the CVT modes, with Overdrive and Edge I currently can only go up to around A4 consistently, maybe B4 if I'm lucky. I am also have a high baritonish/robust tenorish fach.

So my question is, is it perfectly ok with my background info for me to assume (while believing I'm using proper vowels,support etc) that I will be able to at least sing up to C5 in both modes eventually, as long as I keep practicing and increasing my vocal strength/musculature, or should I assume I am not using enough support/wrong vowels etc once I'm up around B4/C5? Like I said, I am recording myself and listening back to it while also using a mirror to be as acccurate as possible.

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I also have and have read the entirety of the book from front to back (the newest edition). I think it's great; although the terminology is different I must say that CVT and 4 Pillars are definitely my go to sources for vocal information.

If you wouldn't mind me high-jacking your thread (if you do just tell me and I'll create a new thread), I've got a question or two (which I'm sure more will come as I practice more) for the CVT guys here:

Using the 4 Pillars method and terminology, I top out modally at around C6 or so, with A5 about the last place it still sounds "useable." Now when I was practicing the CVT modes, with Overdrive and Edge I currently can only go up to around A4 consistently, maybe B4 if I'm lucky. I am also have a high baritonish/robust tenorish fach.

So my question is, is it perfectly ok with my background info for me to assume (while believing I'm using proper vowels,support etc) that I will be able to at least sing up to C5 in both modes eventually, as long as I keep practicing and increasing my vocal strength/musculature, or should I assume I am not using enough support/wrong vowels etc once I'm up around B4/C5? Like I said, I am recording myself and listening back to it while also using a mirror to be as acccurate as possible.

I ordered that book lately, too. But I didn't have time to start reading it yet. However, I searched some resources on the internet the last couple of weeks, and here is how I understand it:

The technique you learn when using pillars is mostly related to the mode that is called "Curbing" in CVT, which is basically medium-mass singing. On the high notes Roberts sometimes even switches to "Neutral" or "metal-like neutral", which is basically low-mass singing.

The Edge and Overdrive modes are more towards heavy-mass from what I understand, Overdrive being the heaviest one. While a lot of men are able to reach C5 in overdrive from what I know it takes an insane amount of support and is really physically exhaustive. Edge is a little easier from what I know because it has more twang and less air pressure (it is a little less "chesty").

So if you get problems in the B4/C5 area it is well possible that your support is not strong enough or that you are not shaping the vowels in the best way possible (which is pretty much required for notes that high). Also keep in mind that the lower your voice type the harder it is to get there and the more training is required. It is actually quite rare to hear a baritone sing a C5 in overdrive, most lower voice types switch to Curbing or Edge on notes that high.

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I ordered that book lately, too. But I didn't have time to start reading it yet. However, I searched some resources on the internet the last couple of weeks, and here is how I understand it:

The technique you learn when using pillars is mostly related to the mode that is called "Curbing" in CVT, which is basically medium-mass singing. On the high notes Roberts sometimes even switches to "Neutral" or "metal-like neutral", which is basically low-mass singing.

The Edge and Overdrive modes are more towards heavy-mass from what I understand, Overdrive being the heaviest one. While a lot of men are able to reach C5 in overdrive from what I know it takes an insane amount of support and is really physically exhaustive. Edge is a little easier from what I know because it has more twang and less air pressure (it is a little less "chesty").

So if you get problems in the B4/C5 area it is well possible that your support is not strong enough or that you are not shaping the vowels in the best way possible (which is pretty much required for notes that high). Also keep in mind that the lower your voice type the harder it is to get there and the more training is required. It is actually quite rare to hear a baritone sing a C5 in overdrive, most lower voice types switch to Curbing or Edge on notes that high.

Thanks for the reply. Since I've read the book, I am aware that Overdrive is basically "chest voice stretching/pushing", but in the book an exercise will say "sing single notes on overdrive. Men start at C4 and go up to C5" with the audio example also up to C5. I've noticed that my voice is definitely not as light as the male example voice (he's more of a low tenor if I had to guess), but like I said, I was just wondering if my unable to reach C5 is more likely to be the equivalent of a weak individual trying to bench press 300lbs while using perfect technique, or if it's more likely a strong individual who can't do it because of bad technique. I guess I could always make a sound file...

Also, as stated above, is it common for people used to singing in curbing/neutral to have trouble singing high in Edge? (and this is not just to benny but anybody else). Especially considering learning how to Edge isn't too complicated, especially on the low notes...

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here's a way to view high notes that has helped me a lot. just break it down into lowest terms.

for a strong high note like a c5...simply what are the basic requisites?

increased air pressure enough to vibrate a stretched, thinned, taut set of vocal folds = support

a setup that minimizes extraneous muscle tension = support

a vowel condusive to the task...a narrow vowel to allow you up.

so yes, it may very well be the support is not sufficient (a very individual component) and you haven't developed the voice to the point where the folds can stretch out enough to hit that pitch.

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I was just wondering if my unable to reach C5 is more likely to be the equivalent of a weak individual trying to bench press 300lbs while using perfect technique, or if it's more likely a strong individual who can't do it because of bad technique. I guess I could always make a sound file...

My vote would be for the latter. It does take a fair amount of energy but unless you're old or really out of shape it's probably more related to technique. It's more laborious to lift weights than to sing C5 in overdrive. :)

Do the bite and use the EH vowel and keep the shouty character. Try lower notes first like maybe G4. The volume should be very loud, but not necessarily the loudest you can possibly go. For me, whether the mode is "centered" or not seems to depend a lot on the volume. Try louder or quieter (but still loud) volumes until you get it just right. And be sure to keep the ribs extended etc (support). Good luck. :-)

a vowel condusive to the task...a narrow vowel to allow you up.

Not if you're trying to do it in overdrive. :)

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The technique you learn when using pillars is mostly related to the mode that is called "Curbing" in CVT, which is basically medium-mass singing.

No, the techinque in the Pillars would probably translate more to what cvt calls metal-like-neutral or "mln", which is basically twangy head voice. It can't really be curbing because the Pillars doesn't recommend the I vowel (as in "sit"), which is one of THE most important curbing vowels but it allows the Eh vowel which is just forbidden in curbing (on high notes). The pillars also don't talk about the "hold". However, some students might accidentally do curbing when training in the 4 pillars, without being aware of it. But all those modes are cool in their own way.

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Intersting... As I wrote my understanding of CVT is not that deep yet.

And maybe it's just me, because I am using the CVT technique with appoggio, not with intrinsic anchoring. I am also not using that Eh vowel to the extend Robert does.

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Actually, TVS now uses "uh" as the preferred training vowel for head voice. And uh is a curbing vowel if I'm not mistaken. TVS is also incorporating new specialized onsets to train bridging with more M1 musculature. And although TVS doesn't directly teach the hold with that specific terminology, it's still in there...some of the new specialized onsets definitely trigger a feeling in the larynx that is definitely similar to CVT hold as I understand it...a slight gripping feeling at the intrinsic muscles of the larynx. This all represents a shift from the old "eh" inside MLN approach to something closer to CVT curbing.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. I started training with pillars when the appoggio part and stronger mentioning of the 'uh' vowel was already in. The video lessons of course are not updated that frequently, so you still hear a lot of 'eh' vowels there. But you can also hear that Robert himself has shifted his tone quite a bit away from that MLN if you compare the recording of "Souls of Silence" on YT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX_6r2WjtLw) with the newer one on his MySpace page (http://www.myspace.com/tvsvox).

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But TVS still uses eh at the bottom because, one, it trains a modification to happen to help modify the laryngeal configuration along with it, and, IMO, eh just sounds way better down there. Has more of a rock and pop vibe, a low uh lacks bite.

Yeah, probably the only reason. Though a low 'uh' can sound quite fitting for certain genres. I think Geoff Tate is a great example of a singer that uses 'uh' basically trhoughout his whole range. It makes his lows sound a little theatry and wide but for the style of his music it definitely fits.

The 'eh' sounds a little more natural or speech-like in the low register which is preferred by many contemporary singers.

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Now that you are reading the CVT book can you better explain what the "Hold" is or what they mean by "metal"?

i haven't gotten that far yet, but i can definitely describe a metallic sound as i know it in non technical terms....a metallic sound occurs on vowels sounds such as "lah" when the sound is produced with basic twang and a neutral or high larynx..

it's the "chiaro" side of the voice...the bright, pingy, side and the higher harmonics are more prevalent.

you cut out metal when the larynx drops or you use certain throat shaping (vowels/vowel mods).

and here's the technical explanation:

The metallic voice is usually confused with ring or nasality by singers and nontrained listeners, who are not used to perceptual vocal analysis. They believe a metallic voice results from a rise in fundamental frequency. A diagnostic error in this aspect may lead to lowering pitch, an incorrect procedure that could cause vocal overload and fatigue. The purpose of this article is to study the quality of metallic voice considering the correlation between information of the physiological and acoustic plans, based on a perceptive consensual assumption. Fiberscopic video pharyngolaryngoscopy was performed on 21 professional singers while speaking vowel [e]--in normal and metallic modes to observe muscular movements and structural changes of the velopharynx, pharynx, and larynx. Vocal samples captured simultaneously to the fiberscopic examination were acoustically analyzed. Frequency and amplitude of the first four formants (F(1), F(2), F(3), and F(4)) were extracted by means of linear predictor coefficients (LPC) spectrum and were statistically analyzed. Vocal tract adjustments such as velar lowering, pharyngeal wall narrowing, laryngeal rise, aryepiglottic, and lateral laryngeal constrictions were frequently found; there were no significant changes in frequency and amplitude of F(1) in the metallic voice; there were significant increases in amplitudes of F(2), F(3), and F(4) and in frequency for F(2); metallic voice perceived as louder was correlated to an increase in amplitude of F(3) and F(4). Physiological adjustments of velopharynx, pharynx, and larynx are combined in characterizing the metallic voice and can be acoustically related to changes in formant pattern.

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I got the latest edition. The support chapter is one of the best in my opinion.

But I m a self thaught singer and to be honest I found that the techniques are not so easy to understand. It impossible for me to tell if I do things right or wrong.

It seems like you have to get some cvt Skype sessions to truly understand how it works.

Too bad they didn't spend some times on making some real "cvt singing program".

Sound more like a bible for advanced singer than just a singing program.

But I would be really happy if some people here would like to help me. ;-).

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Yeah!, if robert lunte used curbing, he would sound more like ken tamplin!, which is a good example of that mode :P

'i think' that lunte on his high notes sings only on neutral and metal-like neutral! but i could be wrong :)

I still have my doubts about Robert using neutral, at least for the notes below B4. In one of the video lessons he states that the vowels EE and OO are basically unwanted on high notes with TVS technique because they cause too much constriction. This is kind of the opposite of CVT neutral, considering that EE and OO are said to be the easiest vowels for neutral mode. I remember some moderator on the CVT forum identifying Roberts lower range up to about B4 as overdrive and his upper range being edge, what would you think?

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I still have my doubts about Robert using neutral, at least for the notes below B4. In one of the video lessons he states that the vowels EE and OO are basically unwanted on high notes with TVS technique because they cause too much constriction. This is kind of the opposite of CVT neutral, considering that EE and OO are said to be the easiest vowels for neutral mode. I remember some moderator on the CVT forum identifying Roberts lower range up to about B4 as overdrive and his upper range being edge, what would you think?

I have lurked the CVI forum. I think you are talking about Henrik. Looks like a viking but he's really mellow and supportive. He expresses CVT as suggestions and tools, rather than carte blanche "this is the way it is." The advantage of the terminology, I suppose, is to give nomenclature to make sounds and processes more identifiable, though it may still take work to get there. But sometimes, having a mental picture of the goal is half the battle of getting there.

I didn't remember the discussion on Robert's voice but then it has been some while since I even looked through their threads.

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I still have my doubts about Robert using neutral, at least for the notes below B4. In one of the video lessons he states that the vowels EE and OO are basically unwanted on high notes with TVS technique because they cause too much constriction. This is kind of the opposite of CVT neutral, considering that EE and OO are said to be the easiest vowels for neutral mode. I remember some moderator on the CVT forum identifying Roberts lower range up to about B4 as overdrive and his upper range being edge, what would you think?

Interesting. EE and OO are good for neutral but not the kind of neutral Robert likes/liked to use, which is more edge-like (twanged) and overdrive-like (open, shouty but not shouted which would be full overdrive). The EE and OO will tend to lead you to the softest, gentlest regions of neutral.

Just guessing here.

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