Rests between lines when training tough songs as a beginner?

[jonpall]

Hi guys,

I posted this on the CVT forum but since there are so many vocal experts and great singers here, I thought I post this also here and see if it could also bring up an interesting discussion here.

Here you can hear me training to sing the song "Highway to hell", a classic rock song that requires powerful vocals. First I sing the song clean and then with distortion. All the time, I'm singing the song fairly slowly and taking pauses between lines:

http://www.box.net/shared/hk6335fnvb

Then I sing the entire thing (well, a verse and a chorus) with distortion without pausing (which I normally can't do, at least not for a long time, but managed to pull off this time):

http://www.box.net/shared/3yyk09dlqq

That second thing is currently very, very difficult for me to do.

My question is, is it normal, since I'm new at attempting such difficult songs, to have to pause a bit between lines when I'm training to sing those high pitched powerful songs, to rest my support muscles and my twang muscles a bit?

If I don't, those muscles get tired too quickly for me to finish the song properly, particularly my support muscles in my lower abdominal region, but also some muscles in my throat (I'm guessing the muscles that twang are at least one of the muscles that get tired since if I get really tired I often lose my twang).

Note that singing with distortion tires me more than singing clean, but I guess that's normal. Still I can't help to think that maybe I'm straining a bit too much than I should.

I'm wondering if this is to be expected for beginners at this stuff, or maybe if I'm singing correctly, even tough songs like this one, I should not get tired at all, ever? I'm especially wondering if it's wrong to feel slightly tired in my throat after each line, i.e. like I'm releasing some muscles after each line. My throat doesn't tense a lot, but still, a bit and maybe it should not tense up at all?

Maybe some of you more experienced guys can tell from those recordings if I'm doing something wrong?

It would be so cool if anyone could tell me if I'm heading in the wrong direction or not, because I was hoping that if I did what I'm doing in these recordings often enough, one day I would not have to take those pauses between lines. Is that a correct assumption?

It would really mean a lot to me if some of you more educated people could take the time to answer this. Sorry if I'm being too wordy.

Note that even though I'm training distortion, I'm not sure if I'd ever sing that song with distortion on every note but rather key notes and phrases.

Regards,

jonpall.

[Steven Fraser]

I posted this on the CVT forum but since there are so many vocal experts and great singers here, I thought I post this also here and see if it could also bring up an interesting discussion here.

jonpall: I hear a few things in these recordings that I'd like to mention.

First, you are breathing very rapidly and audibly right before each phrase, which is not optimal for your recovery for it. Let your throat relax and expand as you take a slower breath, and you will find that your endurance will increase.

Second: I hear onsets taking place on notes quite lower than the ones sustained. While this may be stylistically what you are wanting to do, the tendency will be to carry the registration of the lower note up to the higher one, which will cause oversinging if you do it. Be sure that you shed the lower note's weight as you make the leap upward to the sustained note. One thing you can also do is to practice onsetting the first note of each phrase directly on the note that will be sustained, so you learn what it should feel like when sustained. If you cannot onset the sustained note cleanly, you are oversinging. Back of 15% and eat the mic a bit more.

Third: Twang your onsets. When you do the lower-note-onset (like mentioned in Second, above), you need to be sure that the twang is already there.

Fourth: I put the spectragraph on both versions. Sometimes, you match your vowel very well to your sung note, but it does not happen consistently. Singing the most resonant vowel every time will lessen the work you have to do at the laryngeal level... and you will sense less effort.

To train this... slow down each phrase to perhaps 1/4 speed, and pay attention to the vowel sound of each sustained note. It may be useful to sing the phrase without consonants, that is, just the vowels, legato, to get the sense of the fine-match that is possible. Then, when you have found the exact right vowel, add the consontants back. Then, when you can produce each vowel just right with the words, then increase the speed.

[jonpall]

First, you are breathing very rapidly and audibly right before each phrase, which is not optimal for your recovery for it. Let your throat relax and expand as you take a slower breath, and you will find that your endurance will increase.

I didn't realize I was doing that but I listened to it again and you're right. Thanks! I'll try to fix this.

Second: I hear onsets taking place on notes quite lower than the ones sustained. While this may be stylistically what you are wanting to do, the tendency will be to carry the registration of the lower note up to the higher one, which will cause oversinging if you do it. Be sure that you shed the lower note's weight as you make the leap upward to the sustained note. One thing you can also do is to practice onsetting the first note of each phrase directly on the note that will be sustained, so you learn what it should feel like when sustained. If you cannot onset the sustained note cleanly, you are oversinging. Back of 15% and eat the mic a bit more.

The idea of mine for this style of training was to begin each note from a safe place or note that didn't hurt. Therefore, many of the notes begin from a weak, low volume, lower pitch, non twanged note and then I try to go to the note and sound I want without straining. But maybe this is a bad idea of mine. What do you think?

Third: Twang your onsets. When you do the lower-note-onset (like mentioned in Second, above), you need to be sure that the twang is already there.

Good point, I didn't think of that. Still, it could have been simply because of my point above - I'm starting with a very relaxed, safe pitch. But I'm going to check if I do that when I'm singing regularly. In these 2 recordings, I'm not singing the way I would actually sing a song normally.

Fourth: I put the spectragraph on both versions. Sometimes, you match your vowel very well to your sung note, but it does not happen consistently. Singing the most resonant vowel every time will lessen the work you have to do at the laryngeal level... and you will sense less effort.

To train this... slow down each phrase to perhaps 1/4 speed, and pay attention to the vowel sound of each sustained note. It may be useful to sing the phrase without consonants, that is, just the vowels, legato, to get the sense of the fine-match that is possible. Then, when you have found the exact right vowel, add the consontants back. Then, when you can produce each vowel just right with the words, then increase the speed.

Thanks, that's a good tip. Do you have any comments on my questions in my first post?

[VideoHere]

Hi guys,

I posted this on the CVT forum but since there are so many vocal experts and great singers here, I thought I post this also here and see if it could also bring up an interesting discussion here.

Here you can hear me training to sing the song "Highway to hell", a classic rock song that requires powerful vocals. First I sing the song clean and then with distortion. All the time, I'm singing the song fairly slowly and taking pauses between lines:

http://www.box.net/shared/hk6335fnvb

Then I sing the entire thing (well, a verse and a chorus) with distortion without pausing (which I normally can't do, at least not for a long time, but managed to pull off this time):

http://www.box.net/shared/3yyk09dlqq

That second thing is currently very, very difficult for me to do.

My question is, is it normal, since I'm new at attempting such difficult songs, to have to pause a bit between lines when I'm training to sing those high pitched powerful songs, to rest my support muscles and my twang muscles a bit?

If I don't, those muscles get tired too quickly for me to finish the song properly, particularly my support muscles in my lower abdominal region, but also some muscles in my throat (I'm guessing the muscles that twang are at least one of the muscles that get tired since if I get really tired I often lose my twang).

Note that singing with distortion tires me more than singing clean, but I guess that's normal. Still I can't help to think that maybe I'm straining a bit too much than I should.

I'm wondering if this is to be expected for beginners at this stuff, or maybe if I'm singing correctly, even tough songs like this one, I should not get tired at all, ever? I'm especially wondering if it's wrong to feel slightly tired in my throat after each line, i.e. like I'm releasing some muscles after each line. My throat doesn't tense a lot, but still, a bit and maybe it should not tense up at all?

Maybe some of you more experienced guys can tell from those recordings if I'm doing something wrong?

It would be so cool if anyone could tell me if I'm heading in the wrong direction or not, because I was hoping that if I did what I'm doing in these recordings often enough, one day I would not have to take those pauses between lines. Is that a correct assumption?

It would really mean a lot to me if some of you more educated people could take the time to answer this. Sorry if I'm being too wordy.

Note that even though I'm training distortion, I'm not sure if I'd ever sing that song with distortion on every note but rather key notes and phrases.

Regards,

jonpall.

jonpall,

i'm just a singer.. steve's the expert, but comparing you to the original recording you are singing it in a lower key. you might want to try it in a higher key which may help you lift you out of chest and have more of your singing of this song predominately in head voice and reinforced falsetto which should make it a lot easier for you. just a suggestion.

[jonpall]

VIDEOHERE, I'm sorry, but you're incorrect. I'm singing it in the same song as Bon Scott did. This is me: http://www.box.net/shared/hk6335fnvb and this is him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5BjIVS04jk.

[jonpall]

Btw. I did the same thing with GN'R's Sweet child o' mine: http://www.box.net/shared/razny84165.

I still feel I strain too much. Do you think I should keep on doing what I'm doing and then the strain will eventually go away or is it just simply wrong to feel a bit tired in my support muscles and a bit in my throat muscles when I'm training those type of songs, even as a beginner?

*Edit*: I just tried it again and strained less, even with grit on the high notes. I just kept on thinking about the principles in Jamie Vendera's RYV2 book and inhaled a little slower and more relaxed than before. I'm trying to keep both twang (which produces high overtones) and an open throat (which produces lower overtones) when I sing. I think I tend to lose twang too often.

[jonpall]

I think I've finally stumbled upon what my biggest problem with the high pitch rock singing stuff has been:

I was losing my twang on a regular basis, even though I thought I was not!

When I really focused on keeping my twang throughout the song, my strain was much less! And adding distortion was also much easier! I found that often, when I was singing a decending melody I just lost my twang without noticing, and it hurt my throat. I also found out by experimentation that vibrato seems to be a good tool to bring out twang - a good way to check if I'd suddenly lost it and to bring it back. Has anyone else noticed this? I'm guessing that the pulsating nature of vibrato sort of "hammers" your voice into twang mode or something

Anyway, I tried again with Aerosmith's "Cryin'", not looking to produce a final outcome but just keep twang on all notes, have a slightly lighter colour (which I might need to darken later on) and even add grit on notes here and there with not that much effort:

http://www.box.net/shared/r981y27uo8

I'm not sure if anyone heres a big difference between this and the previous take but it felt so much easier to do this time around. I also didn't have to sing as loud, even though it probably sounds just as loud.

Sorry about how much I've been posting lately - it must bother some of you, but I think I'll reduce my number of my posts now because I feel I'm on the verge of "getting it". I really should have listened to guys like Jens, analog, Robert, Martin and others who've spoken so highly about twang - it was just that a completely twangy sound, i.e. the "duck" sound was so far away from a sound that I liked, that I didn't give it a big chance. Now I now that this sound must be present when you sing, particularly on higher notes in rock 'n' roll, even though you darken the sound and sound more "manly" And, like always, I could be completely wrong in this post! Cheers, guys!

[VideoHere]

VIDEOHERE, I'm sorry, but you're incorrect. I'm singing it in the same song as Bon Scott did. This is me: http://www.box.net/shared/hk6335fnvb and this is him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5BjIVS04jk.

jonpall, it's all good.

i had used this video for comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqwFfGgLPzM

compare it to your's and you'll see what i mean

[jonpall]

I used the original recording. Only a madman like Bon would actually raise the key of a song when singing live But maybe he just didn't realize it :)

[VideoHere]

I used the original recording. Only a madman like Bon would actually raise the key of a song when singing live But maybe he just didn't realize it

yes, but that 1/2 step up may actually make that song easier to sing, since it's all head voice and falsettto

[Steven Fraser]

I think I've finally stumbled upon what my biggest problem with the high pitch rock singing stuff has been:

I was losing my twang on a regular basis, even though I thought I was not!

jonpall: :)

[joshual]

maybe i'm completely wrong but here's what i think:

It seems that on Sweet Child' you are covering too much the sound (dark tone), it can come from the recording, but i'm pretty sure it's not.

And on both i heard too much support, compared to the original songs. It like hearing myself when i'm supporting too much lol.

Another thing maybe, i think it's very hard to work on one particular thing, twang here, singing many songs of different artists. I would just stick to one song and make it better.

Don't know if it can help, but i have to say your thread is fantastic!!!

[jonpall]

Good point, joshual. Yeah, on Sweet child I think I might be covering a bit too much. It's good that you brought it up because I didn't pay too much attention to it, so now I can work on fixing it. I also didn't have enough twang, like I mentioned above, so that's why that take hurt a bit, not much, but a bit too much for my liking. On my take on "Cryin'" above, I think I'm covering a bit less and it felt much easier. Since then, I've been practising with more twang and my high distorted notes have so far been MUCH, MUCH easier. But I think I have to be careful of keeping my throat open when I twang, because if I don't, the sound gets too piercing and it seems that it actually makes it harder to add distortion. I'm still trying to find a balance between a too much pharengeal sound and a too much operatic sound. I want both the high and and low overtones and an overall great sound. Thanks!

[Steven Fraser]

When I really focused on keeping my twang throughout the song, my strain was much less! And adding distortion was also much easier! I found that often, when I was singing a decending melody I just lost my twang without noticing, and it hurt my throat.

I also found out by experimentation that vibrato seems to be a good tool to bring out twang - a good way to check if I'd suddenly lost it and to bring it back. Has anyone else noticed this? I'm guessing that the pulsating nature of vibrato sort of "hammers" your voice into twang mode or something

jonpall: vibrato is an indicator of reasonable vocal function and lack of restricting tension. Vibrato on its own would not 'cause' twang, or even make it easier. I think, rather, that the vibrato is resulting from increased freedom, and with that freedom, you are more able to sense the exact actions that result in the twang. Expressed another way, you have let go of some throat tension, and from that 1) the vibrato results, and 2) you are more able to manage the twang. I think they are both effects of the tension reduction. All good stuff. Congrats!