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hey folks, let's attack this topic... w.t.f. is "pulling up chest."

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okay my friends.....i'm ready to explore this term, this topic, this method? whatever you want to call it.

this to me is one of the most stupidist, most fear inducing, most misunderstood term that i personally believe is stopping a lot of folks from developing their voice.

you're pulling up chest/or i don't want to pull up chest.....

what are you pulling? what is there in the vocal tract to pull on, pull up?

this is hysterical..lol!!!!

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Pulling up chest = using a hammer when you should be using a laser beam. It can be very confusing because sometimes when I produce the "mix" it seems just like a "pulled chest voice" however it is produced completely differently.

In my Uh vs Ouh thread I forgot to mention that when sirening straight up the scale it helps to "not hold back" the voice because the narrowing-darkening of the vowel will do most of the work. Technically you are pulling chest straight up into m2.

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hmm.. to me pulling chest voice is what the undeveloped voice does when approach high notes. It begins to happen before the voice actually cracks, and can be identified by a strained feeling and/or sound. Most chest pulling occurs around the passagio and can largely be avoided as coordination is built and vocal weight while ascending is reduced. Shouting to "hit" notes is not that way to do this. It hurts and sounds bad.

The term pulling chest voice comes from, I think, the feeling a person gets when they have to strain to reach notes, though this strain is more in the throat than the chest... but no one is going to start calling it throat voice. It's like straining to pull up a weight, and in fact, it might literally be the head voice trying to pull the chest voice up to reach it's comfort zone. Yes, I know this is probably not what's happening, but I like the imagery.

The thing about the chest voice is that it is less of a physiological place, and more of a weight and quality of sound kind of thing. Chest voice is also not just the low range. A singer who has effectively brought down their headvoice (as prescribed by your favourite, Frisell) will not even sing completely in chest voice while in the lowest part of their range. Nor will they be in headvoice. But rather a balance of each.

Another issue is singers often shed too much weight when ascending, and lose their connection to the chest register's musculature which creates a weak sound. This is due to them realizing the danger/futility of trying to power through their range, but then they are neglecting the role that attack and support play in producing a good sound up high. You know, for the belting that makes audiences cheer, weep, sweat, and throw money at you.

It is my opinion that to achieve the goal of singing with one voice ,the singer must have equally balanced registers that are involved in all production of tones, maintaining chest in light heady registration, and maintaining head in heavy belting.

That said, I do believe that the best way to master high tones is to start light, gradually bringing in chest musculature to the sound. Any examination of quality singers will reveal a diverse control over light to heavy sounds. Freddie Mercury being a great example of this. In fact I think his vocal downfall was the reliance over heavy tones in his live performances. I'd say in most of the performances I have seen of his, he pulls chest to hit the notes, whereas in recordings, he approached it more evenly.

Chest pulling also happens very easily in a voice that goes straight to belting without softer singing for a little while first. Like a sprinter who races without stretching or jogging first.

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Pulling chest = overdependence on the muscles that make chest voice work. When we train we are learning to depend on head voice musculature which is a more precise co-ordination imo.

This is why it takes some people YEARS while others just months... depending on how much they depend on "chest voice" it feels "unnatural" to pull head-voice down at first.

Something I feel we tend to forget is "chest voice" is a NECESSARY layer of sound.

I think a better question to ask is HOW do you NOT pull chest? My response would be OO! EE!

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What is pulling chest? Me trying to sing Nickleback songs trying to to sound like Chad. :/

Sorry about that. I couldn't help myself. I think Owen hit the nail on the head with his answer.

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Nothing gets pulled, its just an Explenation of when a coordination is used in the wrong way. The pull comes from the sensation of added effort as one gets higher, this gets extreme when using the speakingcoordination in a wrong way to high

Cheers

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I just did an experiment, To me the pulling is thinking you need to Push the power with your lungs and pull the note up with your throat. Very bad way to go. I need help. :P

If I can trick my mind into thinking the note is being produced in my head it is much easier.

Still just one mans perception.

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Chest and Head, when thinking of resonance, are simply two ways we have to register the vowels in our brains, the referencial point change, just that. When you take chest above the passagio, you start to sacrifice the options to produce certain vowels with clarity, and note Bob, I am not asking if you can or not, its impossible, but then again, I am also sure that the meanning you have for chest is totally different than mine.

If you try, something will simply not be able to ajust and you will get strainned or airy, and STILL will not produce the sound you intended. If you open the vowels, then sure thing (belt :P).

So you simply change the referential point, going high with what CAN go high :). And there you go, you can be as strong as you want without strain.

Its important to know this, because before you actually change the referential, and it will be through trial and error and experimentation, you will not even KNOW what the hell Im talking about. Its something nobody can even look at, there is no instrument that can look into your brain and say, oh look, here he switches the idea.

"You" here is not really you, like a generic statement ok. What do you think that the work you did with Frisell gave you? :)

And man, I am 100% with you that chest must be trainned and must be strong, but its much more important that its done fully correctly than simply going strong in any way the person can.

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If you dont decouple the idea "chest" from "weight" and "fullness", its meanningless.

Absolutely, the most brilliant post in this thread.

It reminds me of what Frisell said about "chest" in his book, "The Tenor Voice." Then, again, I only read that thing 4 times. So, there's always a chance I could be wrong. "chest" is a timbral quality that describes good resonance and volume. But it is independent of the place the pitch has in one's range. You can have "chest" anywhere in the range if you have resonance and volume.

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jonpall, it was a scale. it was somewhere in the "staying in the mix, strains..." post.

ron, awesome my brother from the lone star state....you said a serious mouthful on post #14.

i'm (thank god) a little busy here in the store today. i will reply soon.

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Thanks, Bob. Reading Frisell and others of the same ilk actually helped me get away from head and chest or singing from a head voice perspective, though that is where his training starts. It progresses to one voice.

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I don't associate head or chest with "musculature." It gives the wrong mental image. Exactly what "musculature"? The tendons in the big toe on my left foot? Or the cremaster muscle (I will let you look that one up)?

And it could be that "chest" is a misnomer that started because one's range obviously starts in the speach part of the range. And was associated with sympathetic vibrations in the upper chest, such as vibration of the clavicles, for example. And head voice because of sensations felt in the head. When these are nothing but sympathetic vibrations, coincidences that happen along with the sounding of the note.

Even if we could theoretically accept that a low note may also have some resonance in the chest cavity (though I doubt its value, if any) the higher notes will simply not get their resonance from that cavernous place. It's a matter of simple physics. A high note is a small wavelength and needs a short or small space to double back on itself and add to its own original amplitude to create a taller amplitude and the amplitude is responsible for the volume.

And that's just the way it is, regardless of religion, creed, ethnic background, training, not training, whether a person knows basic physics or not. Not knowing the physics of it does not make it go away. It's like the bugs bunny cartoon where he forgets to fall because he never studied the "law" of gravity. It just doesn't work that way. Physics is physics.

But rather than think in terms of chest voice and head voice and this or that muscle, it is better to think of the note resonating as it should, a full, round sweetness. You let the rest of your body adjust to keep the notes in the "sweet spot."

I think the best way to deal with pulling up chest is to write those words on a target. Then hike about 600 yards away. Get a .308 with a scope on it. Then, obliterate it.

:)

Or,a compound bow at 50 feet. Either one will do.

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Physics or no physics being one who hits that wall or rather ceiling there is a right way and a wrong way. Whether you call it pulling chest or taking overdrive above the limit without proper support. It is something that we have all tried to do before we "Learned" how to navigate passaggio.

Like it or not it is still there even after we learn to negotiate it. It may get to the point that we do not notice it as much, but it is there. Otherwise we would never have any discussions about whether to "Bridge" early or late.

A lot of people who learned to work through it talk about working from the bottom up as far as you can go without disconnecting and also working from the top down going as far as you can go without disconnecting. Eventually you will get to the point where you switch from one to the other without feeling or hearing it. But the switch is there.

Yes we need to think of it differently. There are better ways to describe it other than Chest and Head but I cannot think of any. I am still learning.

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Let me be even more mystical. Most people hit the chest vs head voice wall and yes it is there and denying that it does not exist does not make it go away and it was not my intention to state that it was not there. However, I think it is there precisely because you cannot sing the way you talk. Because the way people talk, regardless of language, accent, dialect, color of their socks, whatever, is not the same as what it takes to sing. I wonder how much faster people could progress in their singing if they could just bring themselves to accept that you cannot sing like you speak?

Of course, that's a mental thing. Which leads to an oft-repeated maxim.

;)

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I do agree with you Ronws. And the problems is that there is different things that a person needs to do to sing instead of speak. Words can and do trip us up because there are many interpretations that can be made from a string of words.

Our ears also play tricks on us. I was doing some sirens while driving down the road trying to determine what I was doing wrong and what this pulling chest means. I could sing above passagio with a resonant sound unfortunately this sounded nothing like the way others sound when they are singing above Passagio.

When I try to make the sounds I hear other people make when they are singing I end up "Pulling Chest"

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I do agree with you Ronws. And the problems is that there is different things that a person needs to do to sing instead of speak. Words can and do trip us up because there are many interpretations that can be made from a string of words.

Our ears also play tricks on us. I was doing some sirens while driving down the road trying to determine what I was doing wrong and what this pulling chest means. I could sing above passagio with a resonant sound unfortunately this sounded nothing like the way others sound when they are singing above Passagio.

When I try to make the sounds I hear other people make when they are singing I end up "Pulling Chest"

Well, that's an easy one for me to figure out.

Quit trying to sound like others. I want you to sound like M above the passaggio.

I will need your address so that I can send you some of my ego. You need some ego. You need to realize that the voice of NDEW is just as valid and worthy of hearing as other voices.

Be known for being MDEW, not the guy that sounds like this or that other guy.

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You cannot,not try to sound like others... Only way is to be quiet, the voice is mimiced, our entire voice... Thats also the reason why singingtechniques work.

I think the biggest vocalmyth is that we have our "own" voice, sure there are some physical properties but everytime i look at the bigger picture those gets less and less significant...

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Oh boy... this has nothing to do with ego or uniqueness.

Mdew. Here is the deal. Whenever you try to copy a sound your brain will try to do what it knows how to do to achieve it. If you try to copy the sound of head voice, all you will achieve is tryjng to force chest to replicate it. It has not choice, you see?

If you are looking for an audible way to identify head voice, look at how the different vowels relate to eacher other when the singer is using it. Notice that they are produced in a different way, but also they are "held" in place in a different pattern, pretty much like that whistle thing you did.

The color helps of course, but its that pattern that you must find. Try using a very dopey Uh and finding a way for it to ring from a very relaxed initial posture. Remember to let the air flow to ensure you are relaxed.

Its from this ring that the vowels must define on head voice, thats the "center" of production in there and its this difference that makes chest break. The "top-down" image, is just that. But if you dont have the resonance working, the initial vowel ajustment so that you have a reference, it will not be top-down, it will be "nothing-down" and you will brake.

Believe it or not, the main problem is relaxing the posture, which probably will involve a major change on the intention.

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Oh boy... this has nothing to do with ego or uniqueness.

Mdew. Here is the deal. Whenever you try to copy a sound your brain will try to do what it knows how to do to achieve it. If you try to copy the sound of head voice, all you will achieve is tryjng to force chest to replicate it. It has not choice, you see?

If you are looking for an audible way to identify head voice, look at how the different vowels relate to eacher other when the singer is using it. Notice that they are produced in a different way, but also they are "held" in place in a different pattern, pretty much like that whistle thing you did.

The color helps of course, but its that pattern that you must find. Try using a very dopey Uh and finding a way for it to ring from a very relaxed initial posture. Remember to let the air flow to ensure you are relaxed.

Its from this ring that the vowels must define on head voice, thats the "center" of production in there and its this difference that makes chest break. The "top-down" image, is just that. But if you dont have the resonance working, the initial vowel ajustment so that you have a reference, it will not be top-down, it will be "nothing-down" and you will brake.

Believe it or not, the main problem is relaxing the posture, which probably will involve a major change on the intention.

I agree. Until you learn a different way to make a sound you will use what your body already knows. As a child the way I learned to speak in a high voice was to mimic Micky Mouse and "Geraldine" from a "Flip Wilson" character(I'm old look him up on google).

So when I would sing high notes I would use one of those voices already in my memory. I am now learning new ways. I did manage to create a ring whether or not it is the ring I am looking for and the vowel production was very different from what I am used to. I am working on making it a habit.

Ronws, I am not trying to mimic someone elses singing voice. I am trying to learn how they sing. I want my unique voice.

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