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How to find M3/super falsetto etc

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Sun
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Hi guys,

When I started singing I didn't have access to regular falsetto (M2), and only M3, that rock-scream sound and it had the range of about A4-D6 (couldn't take it lower), very loud, feminine hooty sound that felt completely weightless. However I never really had good control of it.

After finding M2 coordination (regular falsetto, long time ago) I started using that a lot and forgot how to get the M3 coordination, and M2 became the standard mode of my voice.

Do you guys have any tips/sensations to re-find the M3 super falsetto coordination? I've tried imagining sucking in the air and this gets me into some kind of squeaky whistle type thing in the same register and higher but it doesn't sound/feel the way the M3 used to...

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The word record holder Adam Lopez said he was basically in M2 and he was training scales and it just "flipped" into m3. I don't think there is much other ways lol Brett Manning says you can use lip rolls and vocal fry.

Imo it's all about comfort... if C6 is not comfortable take it very slowly and deliberately.

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Sun I think you're talking about this kind of sound:

https://www.box.com/s/8yaj8mov1albao45yjns

Which is actually M2 I think.

M3 is quieter and not as effortless.

At least that's my experiences with it. I could be wrong.

I can do what I did in that file, also on a splattier "aa" vowel for more rock effect (I'm not as good as that anymore for some reason), OR I can also bring the volume way down and get some find closure and squeak out a tiny sound with a rocks scream timbre, OR I can just pull normal connected M2 a little higher by thinning it out and using a specific narrowed "aa" kind of vowel shade

There's a number of ways to get into that range. So far, my experiences with it as applied to singing are, in the lower 5th octave the pulling M2 approach works best, in the upper 5th octave the reinforced falsetto works best, and M3 I have very little control over so I don't use it.

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I'm not 100 % sure it's the same setup but it might be, here is an old recording of me playing with it:

https://www.box.com/s/znm4mvbrh0a3iqxzkblo

This was super easy/weightless to do

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It's not high neutral, it feels/felt completely different, my neutral goes up to like F#5, and that feels like a SUPER high note in M2/neutral, however with this setup it was like the baseline pitch of my voice was C5, like the effort level to sing a C5 in that setup was like speaking an A2 , it was just different.

Anyway what's important is how to find it not what it's called, so any more tips are welcomed!

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I'll be the old curmdugeon. These stunt notes are just that, good for a stunt. Better to work on the passaggio.

Of course, I may be self-serving saying that, since I have not been able to do anything above C6 in full voice, for me.

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but what does fullvoice means above C6 for a male?

i believe women can still use a few different modes around there, but males ONLY can do whistle on neutral on this area right? maybe we can obtain more volume on the same configuration, but there arent a lot of options, like say 'falsetto vs fullvoice, or different modes!, above C6 for males'......... it has no sense! xD

You're right, you're the new expert, I don't know anything. I just think there's a volume difference or timbre difference between what I do at the top of the 5th octave and what some one else does with a whistle register.

My bad. What was I thinking?

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I'll be the old curmdugeon. These stunt notes are just that, good for a stunt. Better to work on the passaggio.

Of course, I may be self-serving saying that, since I have not been able to do anything above C6 in full voice, for me.

I agree with this, trust me, I'm putting in around 60 minutes of effective passaggio training everyday.

This mode is useful to switch to around D5-E5 for the rest of the 5th octave, popular in power metal style singing, as shown by user Jens f.ex.

I also hope to give you a seamless D2-D6 siren one day ;)

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lol... dream big, my friend. The only way you'll do that is by butchering your technique.

How many breath exercises do you do a day? What do you do? How do you approach your passagio?

As a guy that's sung hundreds, if not thousands of B5's in live shows, I can tell you with all honesty that working up such vocal tricks, which is what they are, will impede your vocal progress. Fun? Yeah, and there are a few short-term perks (hint: handicap stalls are amazing inventions lol). But did mastering this vocal trick help me become a better singer? No, I was inadvertently putting my vocal health at risk.

Quite simply: you can't train for tension and freedom at the same time. Your voice muscles use muscle memory (problem A) and the limited breath support required to sing those notes is the antithesis of what you'll need to fully hook up your voice (problem B).

Ok, I didn't know you were the grand master of deciding which artistic choices are valid and which are not.

I'm working closely with a teacher, practising consistently and seeing great results.

This super falsetto register is not harmful nor is it hard to do at all, in fact it's super easy when done right. Tons of singers are bridging into this register fine and seamlessly.

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Justin, could you please describe the damaging effects all those years of high singing has had on you personally? Did it give you nodules, or even pre-nodules? If not, then your argument holds no value IMO. I know you're just restating what your classical teacher is telling you, because that teacher hates contemporary singing and want you to think it's all bad technique. It's a very common thing in the classical world.

The reality is there is absolutely nothing more unhealthy about a well done D2 to D6 siren at microphone volume than the inherent, but different, risk of classical singing - having to project to the back of the theater with no amplification.

Now, singing a D2-D6 with classical technique and volume would be unhealthy/impossible, we can all agree on that.

Which goes to show, classical technique sacrifices range in search of incredible power. The minute you push the range too much you risk damage. This is not true with contemporary techniques. I think that says a lot about how "healthy" classical technique really is. The voice was not evolutionarily designed to project unamplified to the back of a theater for hours on end. The voice was also not designed to connect D2-D6 at a lower, more manageable volume. There's no difference in the amount of athleticism and inherent health risk of either task. It's when you try to combine the two that you get into serious trouble. But Sun is only looking for one.

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You're delusional to support such a logically falso position.. and my 'teacher' teaches rock singers....so your ignorance is vast.

Who is this "teacher" and why with quotes? Could you send us an example of the rock singers he's taught? Just curious.

I suffered premature fatigue and required downtime to let my voice recover properly. I could not do shows longer than 2.5hrs, and those required pacing the set lists in order to incoprorate vocal rests.

Since you obviously won't listen to me, I'll invite the other forum members, the highly accomplished teachers included, to decide whether what you described there counts as vocal damage, or even a legitimate reason to call a technique unhealthy.

This isn't about you and your classical technique persecution complex, it's basic physiology.

Justin, I respect classical and contemporary singing equally. As I said, I think they are both equally healthy, or equally unhealthy. They both can be done with good technique or with bad technique. There are highly successful singers in both fields, and singers in both fields who have experienced vocal damage.

You seem to believe this is not so. You're essentially saying that high performance contemporary singing cannot be done with good technique, but high performance classical singing can. Am I misinterpreting you?

I agree with you on some levels about the high range requiring more tension. That's true. But I wouldn't consider singing super high unhealthy and damaging until you overdo it. The same with everything you do to your body...a little sugar isn't unhealthy, a lot is. A little alcohol isn't gonna kill you, a lot is. So, how many 5th, 6th, 7th octave notes were you singing per set, is the real question. And whether you were trained in a technique to pull them off in the healthiest manner possible, even if not perfectly healthy.

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Justin,

I don't know how you deducted that my teacher is incompetent, especially since you literally have no clue about who it is or what is being taught. If it's based on the talk of these super pitch notes, then I'll have you know I haven't even discussed this topic with him so you have no ground to judge.

ANYWAY, what exactly constitutes an "extended range" or the point where it starts becoming unhealthy, according to you?

And what evidence/source do you have to support this statement? (Sincerely interested)

Also what is your opinion of modern high pitch singers such as Daniel Heiman? It's also an interesting question that Owen asks, how many upper 5th or 6th octave note can you get away with (according to you)?

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Once again, not trying to defend or support Justin but sticking my own amateur two cents in (for I am not an accomplished teacher of singing. In fact, I'm just a regular guy that likes to sing and I don't make money at it. I make my check handling crises and catastrophes in the fascinating and insular world of electrical for swimming pools and outdoor living environments and trust me, it makes "american choppers" look like tea and crumpets.)

Some of the ideals of classical and even opera singing is the ability to sing acoustically. That is, over other acoustic instruments without the aid of electronic amplification. For that, you do have to generate power.

Though I was not trained as an opera singer, I have been singing over my guitar, both acoustic and electric, without the aid of a microphone for quite some time. So, I have always needed to have volume, over all. And so, my usable range, as I define it, it is quite limited. Generally, from C3 to C6 in what I call full voice, or the ability to project over an instrument without a mic and pa. Such as my "campfire" editions of songs, my single mic recordings where I am singing and playing guitar at the same time.

Even our illustrious admin, Bob, has said that one might lose the absolute extremes of range in trade for solid sound and flexibility where you need it most. So, it's okay when Bob says it but not when Justin says it? Does Bob's New York accent make it more palatable?

My accent is a mix of west coast and some texan. Maybe I should try saying it. :lol: Although, when pressed, I think I can do a Tommy Lee Jones but, and certainly a Bill Paxton sound to the voice. But I digress.

One should not be offended by the word, "ignorant." It means, "lacking in knowledge."

I am ignorant in a lot of things. Ingorance is something that can be cured by education. In fact, the more I study singing, the more of my own ignorance is revealed, even to me.

Can a voice make a certain pitch? Yes. Look at our recent covers of "Hurt." Yes, I could make some low notes. At very low volume. As opposed to say, Benny, who make the same notes but with such a resounding ring that it beats the pants off of me. Should I always sing that low? Probably not. Not necessarily because it might be damaging but because it is not really where my voice is centered. And I have tried it a step up from the Trent version. Much easier for me, but it changes the whole feel of the song.

And the majority of my work in singing will not be at the extremes of range. Then, again, I am not looking to sing an exclusively baritone, or even basso, repertoire or list. That is, my primary aim is not in singing out of what is the nominal or natural range of my voice.

And I totally expect that last sentence to draw fire my way.

Next will come the statement that a number of classical singers have injured and damaged themselves with types of classical training. And there may even be some credence to that, depending on what classical school one is talking about. Even Renee Fleming, in her memoirs, learned the hard way to avoid roles that required a different fach than is right for her voice. So, for those who want to say that classical has produced it's number of vocal failures, please have the intellectual honesty to admit that it came from trying to do something with the voice that it was not designed to do. Otherwise, why the damage?

That's the part that is always forgotten. Why exactly did the classical training cause the damage? Changing fach? What about the classical training caused the damage? Was it from expecting and "forcing" the voice to do something that was "damaging"?

Chirpping crickets ....

Then, again, are we comparing apples to oranges? If popular singing allows any kind of sound, why worry about any comparison to classical singing or classical singing technique? Sounds a bit dichotomous, to me. Prattle and ramble about classical and quasi-classical technique. Then say, well it's not important if you can make a sound at a pitch.

I think it would be difficult to set the ground rules for a truly comparative discussion.

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Ron you're not only defending Justin (you say you're not so that no one kills you, I get it :lol:) but also saying exactly what I was saying. That, classical singing is fine as long as you stay within your range. I absolutely agree.

But Ron, would you also agree there is more range that exists outside of that, that's plenty healthy, as long as you don't try to make it project over an orchestra? You know, the G2's you did in Hurt. Is it healthy if sung right up to the pop filter, yes? It only becomes unhealthy when you try to sing classical tessitura in that range and it's not meant for your voice.

But "screaming" a C7 is not necessarily classical tessitura. You're still aided by amplification. And you also, hopefully, aren't doing it more than a few times in a long set.

I totally agree that singing in the 7th octave for a full set at full volume is seriously damaging and unhealthy for the voice. I just don't think singing a few 7th octave notes per set at the volume of a mouse squeal, Adam Lopez/Mariah Carey "whistle voice" style, with the best technique attainable, is unhealthy. Regardless of fach.

Screaming your brains out, like really singing loudly and with distortion, on C7 frequently throughout a set? Sure, that could cause problems. Maybe that's what Justin was doing, I don't know until he tells us.

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LMAO! Yeah I think we all agree screaming our brains out for more than half an hour most likely isn't too healthy. However I think it's a cool effect and worth training AFTER you have trained all your basic skills, passaggio, even some songs.

IMHO opinion I think head voice was critical for survival at some point in time (primitive function) but like anything it shouldn't be abused. If you can only have sufficient power in the 5th or 6th octave then stay there and when that is perfectly 100% solid then consider going higher.

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IMHO there is no need for a man to sing in the 6th or 7th octave not even for effect. You have all agreed that you cannot distiguish between vowels at that range so all you are doing is singing one or two notes in a line up there.

The money notes are between G4 and G5 If you have that you are Gold.

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IMHO there is no need for a man to sing in the 6th or 7th octave not even for effect. You have all agreed that you cannot distiguish between vowels at that range so all you are doing is singing one or two notes in a line up there.

The money notes are between G4 and G5 If you have that you are Gold.

It's all about taste, there is no good or bad in singing. Some growlmetalband sounds like an rape in a dark alley. They sell albums...

I love highnotes, even the extremes i think it's very cool. I realt wanna hear justins c7

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Just giving an opinion. Not putting anyone down for wanting to sing notes that high. There have been many discussions about the ill effects of singing above your abilities. I am just pointing out that it is a desire not a necessity.

I also think that Steve Tylers screams sound cool and wish that I could replicate them. Also once I achieve that sound I will use it whether it shreds my vocal cords or not. It is my choice.

I do envy your whistle voice but I would not know how or where to use it effectively in a song.

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Let's put it bluntly. A C7 may sound cool but total mastery of C4-C5 is just so much more valuable imo... after you have that you can add "effects" like C7 however unless you are Mariah Carey/Minnie Riperton or a serious rock screamer then there isn't much artistic usage for it "so far."

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Let's put it bluntly. A C7 may sound cool but total mastery of C4-C5 is just so much more valuable imo..

I totally agree. Ironing out the passaggio, which is most of a tenor-ranged song is, is more important than the absolute highest note.

I can't do a C7 in any form or fashion, that I am aware of. And most of what I want to sing falls between C3 and C5, maybe up to A5. And better to work on that area for everyone that is between D4 and B4 (whereever your passaggio happens to be) than a Lopez stunt. I mean, good for him, to be able to do that.

I don't think I am any less of a singer because I cannot do that. Nor do I think I am "working" any less because I am not trying to do that. If I can just control my pitch and usable volume on what I am singing, and more importantly, convey the feeling I have for a song, then I am a success, at least in my own book. The only book that matters. :D

Have you met my ego? :lol: You may have to stand back a little to gain perspective ... :lol: :lol:

But Ron, would you also agree there is more range that exists outside of that, that's plenty healthy, as long as you don't try to make it project over an orchestra? You know, the G2's you did in Hurt. Is it healthy if sung right up to the pop filter, yes? It only becomes unhealthy when you try to sing classical tessitura in that range and it's not meant for your voice.

Good points, though I think you can damage your voice in pop music. Yes, I did some low notes. No, I do not have the ring of a true baritone, pop or classical, with those notes. But I think I can get away with it because I did in the way that my voice works.

Also, importantly, I am not trying to make a singing career, amateur or pro, out of singing that low, essentially outside of my artistic range, though the effect may be "artistic." There are only a few songs pitched that low that I like. Otherwise, everything else that I like to sing is up where my voice is comfortable, more volume and ring. Even if everyone, haters and fans alike, happen to like how I sounded on those low notes.

The recording you could hear was live. You can hear my dog outside, barking. At the end, you can hear the tv in the other room. Consider it a slice in the life of Ron. And later, I performed it for my wife. And it is a quiet song, with or without mic. And times before, I thought I could not make a usable G2. You tell me I did and I accept that, even if it means that I have proven myself wrong. I have probably been wrong more often than you but I have also lived longer than you have. ;)

And, of course, there are the other comments about doing extended high bits in live performances for long times and it may cause damage. Sounds a lot like the things being said that there is a risk of damage from doing that. The converse, whether you agree or not, could also be that staying within the limits of the voice can also bring endurance.

Bob has said that, in the quest for one voice, a solid strong emotive flexibility throughout his range, that he is not working the absolute highest noises he can make. And it is an acceptable trade-off. I think that is a wise thing.

So, I might ask the original poster why he is worried about these stratospheric notes? Should he, and his teacher, worry more about the passaggio? Which is kind of the same point that others have made I just made it sound nicer ... maybe.

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  • Administrator

@ JustinOthersinger :

Once again, I have been receiving a number of emails regarding your comments/behavior in this Forum. Some are as follows :

1) “Your teacher doesn't know what they're doing. Find a real teacher and then get back to me. You're wasting your money.”

2) “You're delusional to support such a logically falso position.. and my 'teacher' teaches rock singers....so your ignorance is vast.”

3) “Adam Lopez is a joke and nobody with any real knowledge of vocal technique would ever take him seriously.

3) "When you can actually sing a D2 to C6 siren, or my C2-C7 range we can talk shop. Right now you're on the outside looking in... and you have no clue.”

The Modern Vocalist World (including the forum), has strict rules regarding RESPECT for ALL of our members, and as such, said posts are becoming disturbing and belittling to many of our members. We value ALL of our members, including yourself, HOWEVER, this behavior MUST CEASE and DESIST as of NOW !!!

Your comments and posts are in violation of our forum rules which I encourage you to read. Rule 5 specifically reads : " Maintain respect for others and refrain from insults or belittling other peoples postings. In a heated discussion, "RESPOND", don't "REACT".

Please be advised that further posts and/or further complaints of this nature will NOT be tolerated and will result in you being banned from The Modern Vocalist World Forum.

Regards,

Adolph

Forum Administrator

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Rach, I think since Rob is founder of this forum, whether we like it or not, or think it's fair, he is going to be allowed to bend the rules a little bit more. The dynamics here aren't like the US government, we can't overthrow this forum. That being said, Rob barely bends his own rules at all. If he did, this forum would have collapsed years ago.

Him seeking you out about copying pillars is not being disrespectful, it's just him doing his job to make sure no one copied his program...

I do also agree there is a bit of a TMV stream. But think about what it is. It's all done as a way to keep an open forum together. I far as I know, there are two implicit principles here that are unique to the community: 1. Being open to the ideas of others and 2. leading by example/establishing credibility (or humbly admitting your lack of credibility as MDEW is so great at). And those are what keep this forum open to a variety of methods, and factual so it doesn't turn into chaos. The best members are great at maintaining both principles, they get along best.

This all being said, I don't think what Justin said was that bad. Particularly the last comment, all he was doing is accusing me of not leading by example! Okay, you got me Justin, I can only sing a connected E2-F5 siren and the 6th-7th octave stuff I can only squeak out. Here I am, admitting my relative lack of credibility, see how this works Justin? I just think most of all, the insult toward Sun's teacher went over the line a bit.

But I'm not a moderator, I'll let the other guys handle this.

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All this makes me wonder. Did I insult Sun's teacher by pondering if they should spend more time working on passaggio than the absolute highest notes he can make? I mean, it's just a question but it could be construed as an insult if someone were to say "What do you mean they should be concentrating more on passaggio? Jeez, Ron, at least he's working with a live teacher in the same room."

And I would have no defense.

Just the same, I see what Adolph is saying. It sounds like a direct insult to tell the op that he is wasting his money with this teacher. Whether that is true or not, it is considered bad form to be so blunt.

Just like, it could be bad form to tell someone they will only get so far with sls. Something said by just about everyone here, except, maybe, myself, though I don't recall saying that, specifically. Though I have noticed some people who have used these other systems coming to 4 Pillars to get something they feel, for themselves, was lacking in the other systems. Though that can certainly be also mental.

Politically, I am at my best when I shut up, which is the hardest thing for me to do.

:lol:

I'm all about singing. And my boss made some new rubber stamps for work. Company address, company endorsement on checks, stuff like that. I should have had him make me one that says "good job" since I am so good at that.

:lol:

I think TOS states that we should respond to statements but not directly insult another member. And I have seen Justin be insulted, what I thought was directly. Called a troll, not just accused of trolling. But I could be wrong.

Profanity. I have been accused in the past of having out of control profanity. Can anyone here point to such profanity, other than a word in a song title? Such as my theme song

I have seen others, including one or two members of the powers that be, use profanity with far greater regularity than I have ever used, here. But I get it, there are two sets of rules. One for ronws, one for everyone else.

So, Owen is right, so wise for someone so young. This not a democracy. House rules, just like Las Vegas. Whatever the house decides.

To quote David Lee Roth, "You've got roll with the punches to get to what's real."

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I think there may have been maybe 2 posts in this thread that did at least try to steer the OP into the direction for achieving his goal of finding M3 configuration. I am also guilty of not seeing the need for that and expressing that opinion. But the question was asked How to find M3 not whether it was safe or popular or impossible.

Safe or not, I have heard that Brett Manning found his Whistle by using the Edge or Vocal fry exercises. He also talks about learning to disengage the Digrastic muscles under the chin. Also by phonating on an inhale you can get a higher sqeek sound that can be used to find the coordination for the whistle. As with anything, if it hurts don't do it.

I have not tried any of these things. I cannot access the whistle register, but I have watched the video of Brett explaining how he found it. My memory being the way it is, it would be wise to look for that video on youtube and watch it yourself.

As for the other issue of My teacher is better than your yours and I know best, you know nothing.

Anyone who thinks they have all the answers lacks wisdom.

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