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Question for CVTr's - is this Overdrive?

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gno
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Geran - thanks for the reply. The vowel really sounds like "eh" to me. It is only a C#5 - one half step above the safe Overdrive limit. Plus he's got that classic overdrive "bite" just like in the book:

To me it doesn't sound like a high curbing vowel of "i" or "uh"

I guess it could be edge? because of the "eh" and he is definitely belting it.

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I put it through a spectrum analyzer and there is a giant amplification of the second harmonic on the C#5. So although I'm no expert on the terms I'm pretty certain it's either overdrive or edge.

This guy's definitely a high tenor, you can tell by the power, brightness, and effortless execution of everything. So I think it makes sense he can bring overdrive up a little higher than the average male.

Did anybody else notice part of the audience singing the "woah oh oh oh"s is harmonizing? Sounds super cool. There must have been a good amount of singers in the audience.

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geran89, edge on C#5 isn't that ridiculous! It's not easy, but accomplished singers can do it. It's one of the recommended methods for rock singing, to go from overdrive to edge as you approach the high C. I still think it's edge. His faithfulIIII before it is curbing, i agree, but the character totally changes on the note that geno asked about!

This guy's definitely a high tenor, you can tell by the power, brightness, and effortless execution of everything. So I think it makes sense he can bring overdrive up a little higher than the average male.

It may be true that some people can break the overdrive limit (with females the official CVT position is that D5 is the limit for most but some women may achieve Eb5), but this isn't an example of it. It's definitely not overdrive IMO.

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I put it through a spectrum analyzer and there is a giant amplification of the second harmonic on the C#5. So although I'm no expert on the terms I'm pretty certain it's either overdrive or edge.

This guy's definitely a high tenor, you can tell by the power, brightness, and effortless execution of everything. So I think it makes sense he can bring overdrive up a little higher than the average male.

Did anybody else notice part of the audience singing the "woah oh oh oh"s is harmonizing? Sounds super cool. There must have been a good amount of singers in the audience.

Owen - Your spectrum analyzer results confirm what I was hearing. In a "chesty" configuration the 2nd harmonic is hyped. That's from a lot of compression - TA involvement. And in overdrive the first formant of the vowel travels up in parallel with the fundamental, changing the vowel. Sounds to me the 1st formant is doing that here.

I don't know a lot about Edge, except that it uses a lot of Twang. Twang hypes the singers formant which is way up in 2 - 3k range. The 2nd harmonic of this note is below that - about 1k. The CVT book doesn't talk about how the formants change in modes, or what the CT / TA is doing. But the fact that Edge used to be called Belting, makes me think that this could very well be Edge - Anybody know if Edge hypes the 2nd Harmonic like Overdrive?

And yes - I did notice the audience singing - that really makes the performance.

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It's either curbing or edge. Frankly, does it matter which one it is? My suggestion would be to practise this song in curbing mostly and sometimes practise it in edge. Then, when doing it live, you can choose to go to edge if you want to sing it as powerfully as you can, but always be ready to back off the volume into curbing (or even neutral), especially if you feel that you're starting to push too much.

I would also suggest we ask Raching which mode it is. I would guess he'll make a simple, short statement like "it's curbing" or "I believe it's curbing" or "try all the modes and use the one that sounds the best to YOU" - which is something I would agree with.

On really high notes it's very hard to tell the difference between curbing and edge, or at least it is to me. One good indicator of which one it is, is to try to sing it and try to feel if you could possibly sing it any louder or more resonant. If you can't make it any louder, it's probably edge.

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hi folks,

just listen to you guys....lol!!!!

you remind me of that mr. kimball character from the "green acres" tv show.

"that's edge....well, it's not really edge, it might be curbing, well, it might also be overdrive......what was the question again."

here he is in case you don't know him...histerical

(notice he didn't go to the big high note at the end.....)

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LMFAO all I know is regardless of he is tenor that area is definitely "trained" even if he didn't have professional coaching.

My question would be what is he doing to get those notes connected and powerful without sounding overly girly, as you can hear he has a lighter voice but as he goes higher he MAINTAINS power.

Wonderful clip geno, thanks for sharing.

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Dunno, is it that special to shout everything that comes above the passaggio? What is with these veins popping and all the effort for the small sound result?

I don't know - that's a good question. I see veins popping from good singers sometimes, and sometimes I do it too. I don't know if that's necessarily bad. I remember a piano teacher once told me that it's good to see blood flow in the hands - muscles work more efficiently when blood vessels are delivering oxygen - as opposed to when you have tension in the hands which restricts blood flow - and then you become tight. Maybe it's the same with singing. Maybe geran is correct that you increase blood flow when singing powerfully - you see veins and that's ok.

As for the shouting above the passagio - well, I guess to each his own. To me, I just love the sound that guy gets up there. Others may not like it. The guy seems to have a very good handle on his voice. Maybe he's not doing some things perfectly, but if I could sing that way with all his flaws I would be very happy.

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hi folks,

just listen to you guys....lol!!!!

you remind me of that mr. kimball character from the "green acres" tv show.

"that's edge....well, it's not really edge, it might be curbing, well, it might also be overdrive......what was the question again."

here he is in case you don't know him...histerical

(notice he didn't go to the big high note at the end.....)

That's hilarious Bob!

Yeah - it must sound kind of funny. Like who the hell cares? Lets get on with it! Shut up and sing!

I guess I'm facinated with CVT these days. Not sure I agree with it, but I never took from a CVT teacher so I don't really know. In CVT - if you want to do something, say in Overdrive, you need to practice Overdrive. So if I wanted to sing those notes like that guy, and approach it from the "CVT angle" I would need to know what the heck mode it is so I could practice that mode. In CVT every mode has specific things to concentrate on. I don't take the CVT approach so, to me, it is just kind of facinating to hear how the CVT guys analyze something like this.

I'm making some good progress with Bristows program and I think it is based on what CVT would call Neutral. So I often wonder - if I would take the CVT approach would I get there faster?

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LMFAO all I know is regardless of he is tenor that area is definitely "trained" even if he didn't have professional coaching.

My question would be what is he doing to get those notes connected and powerful without sounding overly girly, as you can hear he has a lighter voice but as he goes higher he MAINTAINS power.

Wonderful clip geno, thanks for sharing.

Yeah - I think this guy is pretty amazing. Devitis made me aware of him first with another live clip of him singing this song which was pretty stunning. So I found this and realized that he is doing some pretty spectacular stuff.

Here is the other clip - he is a great entertainer to - very good with the audience and pretty funny. Very natural.

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Geno if you want to get really good at "neutral" and all its variations, TVS is one of the best methods available for head voice development. You have some version of pillars don't you? If it's 2.0, you have enough to work with the develop strength in the head voice. 2.5 will give you more to play around with, more flexibility and control over the sound ideal you're looking for. And I don't really know what 3.0 is up to but it's coming.

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I'm realizing how important it is to get the CT involved - earlier. Bridging early instead of bridging late. I spent a lot of time doing Tamplin's "carry chest into head as far as you can." That's great for belting but I couldn't do lighter singing - high. And I even practiced CVT's neutral exercises for a year and that didn't help much. Doing Bristow's program and 4 weeks I'm a changed singer. His program is much more effective at teaching CVT neutral than CVT neutral exercises. I'm not being fair because I think it's hard to do a program from a book. You probably need to take lessons from a CVT teacher. I have no doubt Robert's pillars is good.

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i don't mean to imply that it's easy....but i like to reduce it to lowest terms....like reducing a fraction.

components: the right narrow vowel shade for him, a solid, supported breath, nice open airway, and the right fold compression, sung rather strongly...yet managing to stay braced yet relaxed as possible.

plus he know exactly where and how to direct the breath tension to the optimal spot. i like to simplify rather that overthink things....

i'll bet he'd have to change to light head voice to finish with the d5#

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i think CVT is one of the less complicated methods in fact xD

It is okay for me to call you insane? Does that break forum rules?

Just kidda ya geran! :lol:

To each his own. But to my own brain, CVT, the way you potray it on this forum, seems like one of the more complicated methods by far.

It all depends how you define "complicated"

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it's not complicated, as i just said: you pick the sound you want, you learn it with time, you dont think again.

other methods, again as i said, will not give the sound you want, so the road to that sound is ridiculously larger. therefore, far more complicated.

Well I disagree, because what if I want a sound that doesn't exactly fit into CVT terminology. That a different method can teach me better. Then which is more complicated, trying to find that one obscure path within CVT's multiple modes and complex variations and rules, or a method that simply teaches me a specific sound I'm looking for? The former of course.

Think of how often we argue over how TVS terms translate into CVT terminology. If Rob went back in time and studied CVT from day one he would not sound the same, he wouldn't have thought to access those sounds because CVT's rules would probably steer him away from it.

Not saying TVS is better, just that if you want one of CVT sound ideals (or lack thereof and freedom from or whatever it is), go CVT, if you want TVS sound ideals, go TVS, etc. That's the simplest path to take. CVT is not the only method that teaches you how to get exactly the sound you're looking for.

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if you want robert's sound, it is overdrive > overdrive-like neutral, changing somewhere around D4-E4, sometimes using neutral with air, when distortiong, false folds and true folds distortion, light sound colour above & dark sound colour on the bottom.

I don't agree about his use of modes: what I have heard so far from Robert Lunte is primarily full metallic.

The difference between his late and early bridging has to do with the amount of volume reduction.

(don't forget that overdrive can have medium volume, this is one of the changes that has been made from earlier versions of the cvt book)

Early bridging is basically reducing the volume of overdrive to medium.

It borders on neutral of course, but it is primarily overdrive.

This is based on what I've heard him sing in the middle and high part of the voice.

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My sound ideal?

Not really. My sound ideal does not include Journey at all lol. Im just wondering what is in there that requires a special technique.

I think the performance sounds good. I am just wondering what can be accomplished trying to fit everything people do into a "technical" rule.

In what I know this is a "gray zone", other solutions will sound similar but it just isnt what he did. What he did is relying in his conditioning and simply applying force, which isnt the same as power, also in my opinion. Thus the veins popping, which also may be ok for you, I just find it unnecessary.

But best of luck. I find it very curious to say the least.

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Two clips

One about bridging:

(Sirens to G4)

"Early bridging" at 3:00-3:09 vowel EH/OH kind of in between in overdrive

"Late bridging" at 6:36 to 6:46 same vowel

Notice also that his sirens are more quiet, but that he raises the volue slightly once he reaches G4

And then his latest contribution as far as I know:

At 1:44 F4 vowel EH overdrive

At 2:15 Ab4 vowel EH overdrive + OH and EH on "YOH EHint gOHnna die"

At 2:28 Ab4 to F4 vowel EH to OH in overdrive

There is more later also

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