Trying to connect reinforced falsetto to whistle voice

[classical guitar]

So I've got a soprano d in reinforced falsetto, and no more notes until I get around an F# above that. The F# and above is whistle, but I can't seem to connect the two registers. Anybody here that can do this. I saw I guy named Barry Knuden do it last month and I've been at it since then...

Here is a clip of my reinforced falsetto tone. It only goes up to about a soprano c in this one since it's 3-4 months old and that's all I had at the time. I've been stuck at the d for over a month now...

[Steven Fraser]

So I've got a soprano d in reinforced falsetto, and no more notes until I get around an F# above that. The F# and above is whistle, but I can't seem to connect the two registers. Anybody here that can do this. I saw I guy named Barry Knuden do it last month and I've been at it since then...

Here is a clip of my reinforced falsetto tone. It only goes up to about a soprano c in this one since it's 3-4 months old and that's all I had at the time. I've been stuck at the d for over a month now...

Classical guitar: Before I make a suggestion, got a question: Why would you call that soprano high D falsetto?

Anyway, here is the situation. For your particular voice, singing the way you are, the stability of the phonation is sensitive to the vowel you are using. D6, 1174Hz is right at the top of the 2nd resonance area covered by the Ah vowel. In that region, you can really pour on the coal and wail, as you are. However, to continue up the scale solidly above that D, I think you will need to modify the vowel to one which has a higher 2nd vowel resonance. Otherwise, you will lose the help that the resonance gives the phonation. The first candidate would be /oe/, as in the English word 'foot'. As you proceed higher, you move into the area where /U/, as in the English word 'up' may suit you better.

I suggest trying the singing of /U/ on the F#, and bringing it down easily on the /U/ vowel for a couple notes, and then transition to the /oe/.

[classical guitar]

Ah the search for the missing vowel... I call those notes higher than Eb above tenor c reinforced falsetto, because the timbre changes. I call my Eb above middle c (second passagio) and up head voice. Bb to Eb middle voice. Low G to A below middle C chest voice, and anything lower than that just fries out so I guess it's fry voice. Does this sound like a common registration for a man?

[aldertate]

I call it a bastardized falsetto, but you're not approaching the ascending scale properly. I've recorded Ab6's, which I didn't know they were until my teacher pointed it out....

The approach is simple... start the lower strat note lighter.... not as hard... and slide on up. Just like ascending through the passagio.

Have fun and good luck!

btw I've been told that men do not have the whistle register.. only women do.. fwiw

[classical guitar]

yup starting to get the hang of it now. I can really feel the gear changing to the whistle register even though the sound it staying good and loud. It feels like my vocal cords are just getting a little closer together in the front Who ever told you men don't have whistle register is a silly person... Pity the Fool!

[Jens]

yepp mens voices are built the same, it's only the size thats diffrent. If women have a whistlreregister it's simple math to understand that men do to

This myth comes probably from classical teachings where men almost never used the last upperpart of their voice and thus never "found" the whistleregister.

BTW great tip aldertate, that probably will do the deal :D

[classical guitar]

Man. You guys are big helpers... One more year of this and I'll be singing in a Steelheart cover band... lol

[aldertate]

yepp mens voices are built the same, it's only the size thats diffrent. If women have a whistlreregister it's simple math to understand that men do to

This myth comes probably from classical teachings where men almost never used the last upperpart of their voice and thus never "found" the whistleregister.

BTW great tip aldertate, that probably will do the deal

lmao.. trust me... that was the same reaction I had when I was told that... haha..

Though... to be the devil's advocate for a moment... I believe that the way women approach their whistle register is vastly different than men. Women's voices don't have the massive changes through puberty that men's voices do, and their handling of the whistle register, from what I remember, is much different. I believe they approach it in a 'floaty' fashion. I'll be able to confirm this is a few weeks when I see my teacher again (she knows all about this stuff). I'm sure there are some classical voice teachers in this forum that have worked with the various types of Coloratura's that can confirm/deny this

The power that men need to generate to properly support this register in a way that results in a somewhat powerful sound (though it's definitely a mic technique) requires that the voice is pushed slightly and some amount of tension added in order to achieve the desired sound.

It does not seem capable of filling a hall like a coloratura's voice does, as in the Queen of the Night aria.

For men, the rules are being bent in order to obtain this sound, and that's why I call it the strat range. It's a parlor trick, a modified falsetto (my term is bastardized falsetto cause that's essentially what it is.. an over driven sound). It's not real singing, and should only be used as an ornament. It cannot fill a hall like the women's register, and isn't approached in the same way.

I think the argument that men don't have a whistle register is a sound one because it can't be used like the women's whistle register without bending the rules. The fact that were able to sing those notes is one thing. But we're not doing it in a healthy way.

I believe that's why I was told men don't have a whistle register. If we did then why can't we approach it in the same way the women do?

I've been singing strat notes for years, and understand them very well. I can tell when they're done right, wrong, etc... experience is the greatest teacher... and my $0.02 worth is that we're using a modified whistle register, if one wants to even go that far. However the fact that it doesn't use the 'interest' of the voice but rather the 'principle' to create the sound, means that the rules are being bent. Therefore it's not a legitimate aspect to singing.

It's cool, and I like doing it, but it is what it is. :)

[jonpall]

aldertate, when I was 14, I used to think that if you didn't sound fairly close to Alice Cooper, you weren't a "legit" rock singer. Now I know better. When it comes down to singing, there is no such thing as legit, just taste. I will admit, that in opera, things are different (yet there, people can argue about things). You're talking mostly to a crowd that doesn't listen much to opera (even though I take it that you also like rock and metal yourself), in which people tend to talk more about what's acceptable and what's not. For example, some of my friends love Bob Dylan and they just like him much more than "technically correct singers". It's all just a matter of taste. I used to get red in my face trying to convince them that Freddy Mercury was a lot better singer, but that's a battle you cannot and should not try to win, IMO.

Peace out,

jonpall.

[aldertate]

aldertate, when I was 14, I used to think that if you didn't sound fairly close to Alice Cooper, you weren't a "legit" rock singer. Now I know better. When it comes down to singing, there is no such thing as legit, just taste. I will admit, that in opera, things are different (yet there, people can argue about things). You're talking mostly to a crowd that doesn't listen much to opera (even though I take it that you also like rock and metal yourself), in which people tend to talk more about what's acceptable and what's not. For example, some of my friends love Bob Dylan and they just like him much more than "technically correct singers". It's all just a matter of taste. I used to get red in my face trying to convince them that Freddy Mercury was a lot better singer, but that's a battle you cannot and should not try to win, IMO.

Peace out,

jonpall.

If I didn't think it was acceptable, why would I have given him the advice on how I sing my Ab6's? It would be irresponsible not to alert him to the dangers of a given technique.

Wouldn't you want someone to do the same thing for you?

[Jens]

What you refer to as the stratrange in regards to your clips is a high twanged headsound, that sound can be pulled very high up in the range but men also posses the "flutevoice" kind of singing.

this is me doing such sounds

probably some notes above C7

there's also people ive heard one live actualy who has a poweredwhistleregister was crazy high in volume and he could take it all the way up to C7, he could easily fill an operahall with it... It didnt really have that pulled tensed sound to it either, I do even remember some forum guy here aninomouz i think who had such an extension to his voice.

and when my voice is at it's most powerfull state volumewise im up in the soprano C range, but then im powering my "falsetto"

everything is a matter of taste, claimin one sound is singing and the other one not is wrong...

For example in my opinion operatic coloraturas sound horrible and it's just a gimmickturkeyvoice missing consonants But on the other hand I dont divide whats singing or not...

[classical guitar]

Yea, but do you hear the disconnection in that clip in before it hits the whistle? What I'm doing is much, much louder and could fill a hall. I can't take that big ballsy sound to C7 (I can make sounds and sing scales up to the highest A on a grand piano with the register that guy is using), but I can hit a E which is two notes higher than what I had.

[Jens]

yes but my post was geared towards aldertates response to the guys dont have the flutey sound. yes the whistle in that clip is disconnected i know that it's similar to the setting mariah carey uses...

[aldertate]

yes but my post was geared towards aldertates response to the guys dont have the flutey sound. yes the whistle in that clip is disconnected i know that it's similar to the setting mariah carey uses...

First off, I am a regurgitater of my training lmao..

Secondly.. are you effen serious? lmao... You're going to try to pass this clip off as singing? LMAO You're killing me Jens, killing me.. Can I record my sneezes when I pinch my nose? I think that might qualify as singing to you. :lol:

When I hear someone sing a line using that 'technique' I'll believe you.. lmao.. but I ain't holding my breath.....

Here's someone you're going to absolutely love:

Adam Lopez:

this guy is ridiculous.. no offense... In my humble (and yet very outspoken opinion haha) it would be a nice change if any of these guys would use actual words, or <gasp!> sing those notes as part of a song.

But that would actually require them to... umm... actually sing those 'notes' with coordination, now wouldn't it? I don't think the tension their using would allow them to do that. I doubt they could go from a high A4 to a C7 in one breath. I honestly don't think that's possible for them in a live setting... but... in a studio with a ton of effects it might sound cool..

If I were a dog, that is.

Would you expect a bass to have the same high range as this light tenor?

I stand corrected! lmao

[jonpall]

aldertate, Jens wasn't singing in that clip. He was making sounds, to illustrate a point.

I don't think ANYONE can actually sing that high using understandable words - but that's because all vowels merge into each other that high. I'm sure you know all about this. Notice that Mariah Carey doesn't use words when singing that high, just a single vowel for some melody. It's more of an effect than anything else. There is also no way to sing that high with a thick sound. I don't see anything wrong with Jens' illustration.

Yes, in classical singing, there are "acceptible" sounds and then there are "other sounds" - all of which classical singers often simply hate, because they don't consider it real singing. I understand their point of view - for the past few years I've become a closet listener of classical singing - EVERY now and then, mind you. I looked up Jose Carreras since you mentioned that something in my voice reminded you of him and educating myself about related things have got me to look into things I didn't think of before, most noticably vowel modification. And thank you for that.

I realize that classical singers are looking for very resonant sounds to be able to project very strongly over an orcestra and are looking for the purest, most beautiful sound possible. Opera lovers want to hear voices that they consider boarderline miracles in terms of power, beauty and technique. I can understand why, after listening to opera for a long time, other styles of singing don't have the same effect on you, even though that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. But beauty is in the mind of the beholder and, like it or not, most people find the greatest pop singers of all time to have more beautiful voices than the greatest classical singers. Sad? Perhaps. But true.

Cheers,

jonpall.

[Jens]

Well firstoff did I ever say it was singing? No I cant recall it... Anyways thats just sounds it's not used in songs or controlled in anyway(in that clip) just a demonstration of a coordination... Honestly man how many words do you hear above G5 ?? is it fun and cool to use sounds above that in songs? Yes I think so... For example i enjoyed your high B5's in your clips, it's the same shit a effect used for fun and showoff...

All is still a matter of taste, and everyone does not have the same taste...

A bass can have a whistleregister just as good as adams I have no doubt about that...And a bass Can have a highrange as a Tenor...

"Can I record my sneezes when I pinch my nose? I think that might qualify as singing to you. :lol::lol"

No please dont, but be sure you dont miss to record the time you fall down from your high horse, cause that will be music to me

"I doubt they could go from a high A4 to a C7 in one breath"

If they could would that change your opinion about them? I doubt it...lmao

you are corrected! lmao

[aldertate]

Well firstoff did I ever say it was singing? No I cant recall it... Anyways thats just sounds it's not used in songs or controlled in anyway(in that clip) just a demonstration of a coordination... Honestly man how many words do you hear above G5 ?? is it fun and cool to use sounds above that in songs? Yes I think so... For example i enjoyed your high B5's in your clips, it's the same shit a effect used for fun and showoff...

All is still a matter of taste, and everyone does not have the same taste...

A bass can have a whistleregister just as good as adams I have no doubt about that...And a bass Can have a highrange as a Tenor...

"Can I record my sneezes when I pinch my nose? I think that might qualify as singing to you. :lol::lol"

No please dont, but be sure you dont miss to record the time you fall down from your high horse, cause that will be music to me

"I doubt they could go from a high A4 to a C7 in one breath"

If they could would that change your opinion about them? I doubt it...lmao

you are corrected! lmao

my horse is damnd high hahaha..

though what's the point in having a register if a singer can't use it? Especially one that, from the look on Adam's face, resembles me sitting on a toilet... )

There's always new stuff to learn, but I'm a cranky bastard, and while I hope to find new stuff in modern styles of music, I'm extremely leery of any particular style that may prevent the voice from embracing other styles.

Yeah... I guess that can go for classical singing too. lmao.. cause it makes some of us (cough cough) much more ummmm... retentive than others.. :)

[aldertate]

aldertate, Jens wasn't singing in that clip. He was making sounds, to illustrate a point.

I don't think ANYONE can actually sing that high using understandable words - but that's because all vowels merge into each other that high. I'm sure you know all about this. Notice that Mariah Carey doesn't use words when singing that high, just a single vowel for some melody. It's more of an effect than anything else. There is also no way to sing that high with a thick sound. I don't see anything wrong with Jens' illustration.

Yes, in classical singing, there are "acceptible" sounds and then there are "other sounds" - all of which classical singers often simply hate, because they don't consider it real singing. I understand their point of view - for the past few years I've become a closet listener of classical singing - EVERY now and then, mind you. I looked up Jose Carreras since you mentioned that something in my voice reminded you of him and educating myself about related things have got me to look into things I didn't think of before, most noticably vowel modification. And thank you for that.

I realize that classical singers are looking for very resonant sounds to be able to project very strongly over an orcestra and are looking for the purest, most beautiful sound possible. Opera lovers want to hear voices that they consider boarderline miracles in terms of power, beauty and technique. I can understand why, after listening to opera for a long time, other styles of singing don't have the same effect on you, even though that certainly doesn't apply to everyone. But beauty is in the mind of the beholder and, like it or not, most people find the greatest pop singers of all time to have more beautiful voices than the greatest classical singers. Sad? Perhaps. But true.

Cheers,

jonpall.

check out early Carreras... when he still had a voice.. <me ducks> lmao... For a guy that lived through what Jose did he's doing an amazing job.. but his early stuff is golden...

Not Bjorling or Kraus golden, as I am a purist... and it doesn't get much purer than those guys.. but.. he was really good.. as was early Domingo. Domingo sings Caruso is a really great recording of him.

Yeah... you have a golden tinge like Jose, and that's a rare commodity my friend. Dickinson had some of that too in the early Maiden cds.. but he lost it...

Ray Alder is really good, early Fates Warning stuff with him singing is pretty astounding...

vowel modification is crucial for the upper range and the upper passagio (depending upon what vowel you're trying to sing)... such a pita that is.. I'll have to record some of the Quilter piece I'm working on (Now Sleeps the Crimson Petal), give an idea of how I've been taught to approach words/lines/etc... it'd be far from perfect, but it might help others to develop their own methods for finding their vocal lines.

Anyways.. fun discussion.. :)

[Jens]

well if you want crazy voicetechnique noone touches heiman in my opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X37p0l000TQ

best highnotes ever!

[gno]

Jens - yeah that guy is really good!

[classical guitar]

Well guys. This thread is a huge success. Through the all the discussion of extended range I was able to pump out queensryche and steelheart all 4 hours long of drunken karaoke last night. No straining, just big as balls sound the whole night long.

[aldertate]

Well guys. This thread is a huge success. Through the all the discussion of extended range I was able to pump out queensryche and steelheart all 4 hours long of drunken karaoke last night. No straining, just big as balls sound the whole night long.

If you're going to drink, don't drink beer... hops are killer on voice.. but there are lots of things left that you can drink hahaha..

Glad you had a blast at drunken karaoke.. hahaha

Tomorrow I'm hitting the studio to put the finishing touches on another Iron Maiden song (Flight of the Icarus) and I'm thinking about changing the ending a bit... we'll see what happens...

Have a good one!

[Robert Lunte]

First off, I am a regurgitater of my training lmao..

Secondly.. are you effen serious? lmao... You're going to try to pass this clip off as singing? LMAO You're killing me Jens, killing me.. Can I record my sneezes when I pinch my nose? I think that might qualify as singing to you. :lol:

When I hear someone sing a line using that 'technique' I'll believe you.. lmao.. but I ain't holding my breath.....

Here's someone you're going to absolutely love:

Adam Lopez:

this guy is ridiculous.. no offense... In my humble (and yet very outspoken opinion haha) it would be a nice change if any of these guys would use actual words, or <gasp!> sing those notes as part of a song.

But that would actually require them to... umm... actually sing those 'notes' with coordination, now wouldn't it? I don't think the tension their using would allow them to do that. I doubt they could go from a high A4 to a C7 in one breath. I honestly don't think that's possible for them in a live setting... but... in a studio with a ton of effects it might sound cool..

If I were a dog, that is.

Would you expect a bass to have the same high range as this light tenor?

I stand corrected! lmao

Ive heard Jen's whistle voice and I think its cool.... but I dont think I would call it singing and i do not believe Jens would either... I dont like this term "Reinforced Faletto"! Falsetto is a vocal mode, characterized by and extraoridnary amount of respiration escaping through the glottis, thus the windy nature of Falsetto... these phonations you guys are demonstrating and discussing are not windy... there is fold closure here, therefore, it is not Falsetto.

[Robert Lunte]

I maintain that the pursuit of the most extreme high note is interesting and perhaps academic, but at the same time... missing an important point. Singing super high notes is not necessarily easy, but its a lot easier then singing good strong E4-A4s...what are for men, the lowest head tones. Mastery of these pitches and their application to the art (your tunes!) is really where the raw super-hero vocals are my friends. Scream a tenor high C5 and above... ok, cool.... But show me a rock vocalist that can articulate consistent fold closure in and around the passagio, C4-A4... and write melody in that area and Ill show you a vocalist that "gets it".

Cool conversation.

[Jens]

Robert i belive reinforced falsetto is a accurate term, it's mainly used in europe to describe the upper register it's the same as headregister. So it all depends on if you wanna describe falsetto as the breathy tone or headvoice, here where I live even voicescientists use the word falsetto about the upperregister still stating it could have fullfold closure. I think it's okay aslong as all people knows whats sounds we are talking about, and since there are a clip in this thread i dont see how it's nessecary to do a deepdive in terminology again

All in all I dont think we should care what we call a sound, just as long as people agree on what sound we are discussing. But I understand what you mean Robert, to some note dividing the headvoicesound and the falsetto sound will cause confusion. Anyways great post robert i totaly get what you mean.