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Support. Is it supposed to be intuitive?

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gilad

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Owen,

I definitely agree in regards to the fact that consolidation takes time. Though, in regards to the tissue reformation I'm mainly referring to the composition of the non-muscular tissues of the vocal folds.

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Owen,

I definitely agree in regards to the fact that consolidation takes time. Though, in regards to the tissue reformation I'm mainly referring to the composition of the non-muscular tissues of the vocal folds.

Close enough. I'd imagine it still contributes to a perceived improvement in the "strength" of one's voice though, correct?

What exactly will a singer notice when their vocal fold tissue has become reformed?

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Owen,

I definitely agree in regards to the fact that consolidation takes time. Though, in regards to the tissue reformation I'm mainly referring to the composition of the non-muscular tissues of the vocal folds.

Here's my redneck understanding of that. For, in reality, when you phonate, whether for speaking or singing, it is the outer layers of the folds that are vibrating. And those outer layers are membranes. Membranes that are hydrated systemically from water present in the metabolism (that's why it is actually important to hydrate quite some time before singing, rather than thinking that you are hydrating by drinking water during a singing session) and other systemic hydration, such as the mucus secreted by the membrane commonly known as the "False Vocal Folds." And that, I got from reading about the anatomy of voice production. The false vocal fold is more of a bump than actual folds to produce sound. In fact, every source I have read on anatomy and voice, so far, states that the FVF do not have a role in phonation. It does, however, secrete mucus onto the "true" vocal folds, providing hydration, lubrication.

What threw me off before and is part of how I injured myself is the idea that you can "engage" the fvf. Man, was I an idiot. A complete moron. Twice. Because I thought I "did it wrong" the first time.

However, what you can do is squash down, kind of squeezing them or some how produce some restriction to create this "noise" in the path of the tone production. For example, the rattle I can do on some high notes have nothing to do with the true folds or the fvf and everything to do with my uvula. Still a constriction but way, way higher. It's still a sung note, "underneath."

Anyway, non-muscular tissue, such as membranes, do not "train" to be stronger, so to speak, like muscles. They can, and will, through repeated hard contact, reform as more solid material, commonly known as calluses. On soft tissue, such as the folds or even other mucus membranes, are known as nodules. As opposed to polyps, which can either be cancerous or simply blood blisters that arise for any number of reasons, sometimes including vocal abuse, though not always.

It's the same process, really, as how the fingertips of a guitar player develope calluses. The skin "toughens" up to withstand the repeated hard contact of fingertips on strings to prevent further injury to the body beneath the skin. In guitar players, these calluses are necessary, expected, encouraged to form.

Not so much with vocal folds. So, there may be a fine line of how much transformation you will undergo in singer training. Your vocal fold membranes already have the necessary amount of surface tension and resiliency to phonate, in order for you to speak, which you have already been doing for decades. And if you are suffering from nodules before you even try singing, that may very well have something to do with tensions and what you are doing to speak.

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Ron,

Exactly, there's a fine line. Though, muscles fatigue will usually set in before tissue fatigue so that should be your indicator to rest. Which is much easier said than done. But nevertheless, you are almost always warned beforehand so to speak.

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It seems like were kind of drifting away from the original question of the thread? Is support supposed to be intuitive?

To me, it seems some languages, such as italian and even chinese, tonal languages, lead to singing more easily than others. American english seems so difficult. Sometimes, it seems like the entire language is nothing but dipthongs, odd consonants, some sharp, others lazy. Not to mention our plethora of accents. (do I get extra points for using "plethora" in a sentence? :D )

Nearly every decent source on singing, including classical, starts with how to breathe. Because it's not intuitive, per se. And the naturally gifted singers? Their natural talent has usually been perfect pitch. They still undergo training for breathing to make it all work. Two really good examples, Pat Benetar and Anne Wilson.

In her memoirs, Anne Wilson points out that she took to singing as a teenager. But that her greatest instruction was from her choir teacher, Alan Lund. And that instruction was no other magical trick than how to breathe. To imagine her breathing machine as a pitcher. When you fill a pitcher with water, where does it start to fill up? By the way, yes I am aware that it has been said that Anne Wilson studied with David P. Kyle. Not so, according to her own words. She never mentioned him and I cannot see why she would mention her choir teacher and no one else. But I digress. Breath support, even for a "natural singer,' must be trained, for it is different than what you do to speak. Unless your speaking language is already like singing. Languages like italian, have truer vowel sounds that lend to more tuneful singing but even they have to learn to breathe.

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As I also wrote earlier, for many it definitely needs to be developed. And the first crucial step is to know what support actually is and why we need it in the first place. However, this understanding is unfortunately skipped surprisingly often.

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And what is that breathing training? Coordination. Air speed and pressure relative to fold adduction and resonance. Which is not about building muscle but controlling it.

And there is probably some conditioning, as it were of the throat. Not so much building of muscle as it is control of what the throat is doing. When I say that when I sing, it feels as if I have no throat at all (I get that from Frangcon-Davies), it does not mean that the throat is devoid of tension, at least healthy tension. Just as, a person needs tension to lift his mug of beer, water, whatever you are drinking, to take a sip of whatever beverage. There is some necessary tension in the arm and hand to accomplish this task. It should also be noted that the body is coordinating opposing muscular contractions to achieve this. For example, when you curl the arm and the bicep is contracting. At the same time, the tricep (back of the arm) is maintaining a tension against this pull and this prevents you from smacking yourself in the face with a frosty mug.

The same must happen with the voice and Frisell was saying that this is what must happen in singer training. A balance of contractions, as it were. Only difference, though, using the arm as an example, every one has a supercharged bicep and you need to let the tricep help decide things, so to speak.

The same model can be extended to control of the breath. You already have the ability to expel quickly. The body does it all the time, especially when walking or running, but even at rest. What you must do in singing, is counteract that rush to expel. To take control of it so that you can slow down or even speed up, at times, the expiration, depending on what you are doing. That is coordination. But I don't start from that end. I find the resonant spot of the voice, feel it like a ball. And keep my eye on the ball and let the body adjust to keep that ball in play, so to speak.

And this all takes time. How much time? The most honest answer is that it varies. Our mileages may all vary.

And we may learn different things at different rates, too. Many people want a concrete number. I started playing guitar in 1974. And I would sing while I played, even though, as a family, we sang before that. I pick 1974 as a starting point, for simplicity. Because I wanted to "do" songs. It also explains, in my recordings, why my stuff that is just me and guitar on one mic, usually turns out better. It's what I know, for several decades. I started working on my voice, in earnest, in 1988. And I am still not done.

So, give yourself some time. Though, I would say, if you are not seeing improvement in one year, maybe something needs to change, in my amateur opinion.

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Would love to hear what those other steps are. :)

hahah trying to trick me into revealing the secrets? :P

There are none unfortunately. I really wrote pretty much the whole organization of support used on classical singing on that thread, with more detail than what I think its wise to give actually, even a few references.

On singwise.com I found pretty much the same information, wrote from a perspective of a classical instructor.

I dont recomend trying to do this alone. Alone the best you can do is sing and aim for comfort/quality, and if you find a instructor, remember that the only philosophy that is acceptable is being pragmatic, either there are results or its completely void of value.

I also dont recomend mixing up different methods, specially if you are using writen procedures. Its a very different media that must account for possibilities that are not a worry when working in person, so things may collide and you can engage into a self-defeating circle.

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rach,

all i can say as a singer (a non-tech, non-scientific one) is there is support.... and then there is support.

for example, they'll be days where i'll hit a certain note, and it's landed right in the resonating pocket and in a split second decision i'll just add an additional boost of breath tension onto that pocket and i will get a ring and ping that can blow me away. i can still sing fine without these boosts, but it adds such a level of intensity i just have to include them sometimes.

i still work on breathing, support, breath holding, capacity, all of it..and right or wrong, i can tell you it has served me well.

i'm also one with a big voice so maybe my needs are greater than another singer's. i've heard several teachers say that bigger voiced singers need more just to get their voice moving...

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Well Felipe those are all classical sources. What about support in other genres? Do the same principles apply to all styles of singing?

Particularly, if we want to sing lighter than full voice, shouldn't some kind of change take place in the breathing musculature?

Is there more than one effective way to support?

I keep reading here about people mentioning to always keep the ribs expanded but I'm not sure I agree with that. To me it seems like you'd basically just be taking away the elastic recoil and adding more effort. Unless there is an advantage to eliminating the elastic recoil, in terms of stability. That I don't know.

I'm just often surprised at how if I think less about support in terms of muscular positions, and just try to keep the subglottal pressure at a steady rate, I seem to get a very stable tone, with little effort. Which makes me wonder, why does it matter that we expand certain areas, and contract others, when the desired end result is just holding a maintaining a stable subglottal pressure? Is "support" a configuration that makes that stability easier to achieve?

I think the intuitiveness of support depends entirely on what and how you are singing...the easier it is, the more natural support can be. The more demanding the singing, the more you may have to consciously manipulate things in ways that feel unnatural. That's just my experience thus far with it, I'm no expert.

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owen, that's true, but what about the support benefit that relaxes the vocal tract....and lessens tensions and constrictions?

that sends you up your range with that super chesty sound?

Bob, I don't buy the tension displacement thing you always talk about. Can you find me a source that can confirm there is some science behind that?

Honestly I just think it's playing a trick on yourself. By adding tension down below low, the tension upstairs just becomes less apparent. I don't think it actually decreases.

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owen, maybe not scientific evidence but check out franco tenelli's science of singing videos, the series he has on appoggio.

it's not about adding tension, it's about redirecting it away from the vocal mechanism to enable you freedom with power.

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I know I kind of sound like a broken record, but it's crucial to know what support actually is and why we need it. Then afterwards people can explore the varies ways of approaching breath management. But it's crucial to understand what it is in the first place because that will make sense of the varies and often very different approaches.

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I know I kind of sound like a broken record, but it's crucial to know what support actually is and why we need it. Then afterwards people can explore the varies ways of approaching breath management. But it's crucial to understand what it is in the first place because that will make sense of the varies and often very different approaches.

Rachsing: Do you have any recommendation on reading materials, or videos on the net that you recommend?

I have noticed to expand my ribs, i need to put some pressure on my abdomen. Does this mean that when I sing, i keep the same pressure on the abdomen as if I am doing the hissing exercise? Would that be the right assumption?

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Well Felipe those are all classical sources. What about support in other genres? Do the same principles apply to all styles of singing?

Particularly, if we want to sing lighter than full voice, shouldn't some kind of change take place in the breathing musculature?

Is there more than one effective way to support?

I keep reading here about people mentioning to always keep the ribs expanded but I'm not sure I agree with that. To me it seems like you'd basically just be taking away the elastic recoil and adding more effort. Unless there is an advantage to eliminating the elastic recoil, in terms of stability. That I don't know.

I'm just often surprised at how if I think less about support in terms of muscular positions, and just try to keep the subglottal pressure at a steady rate, I seem to get a very stable tone, with little effort. Which makes me wonder, why does it matter that we expand certain areas, and contract others, when the desired end result is just holding a maintaining a stable subglottal pressure? Is "support" a configuration that makes that stability easier to achieve?

I think the intuitiveness of support depends entirely on what and how you are singing...the easier it is, the more natural support can be. The more demanding the singing, the more you may have to consciously manipulate things in ways that feel unnatural. That's just my experience thus far with it, I'm no expert.

In singing technique, not classical or whatever label, supporting a production is providing adequate pressure and stability (sustainning the airflow). Its a dynamic process, not just expanding here or there.

If you are doing something correct, and then expand the ribs, you will just disrupt it, not improve.

Classical support, is a way to organize this coordination, and well, its efficient enough to deal with the dynamics requirement of classical singing, so it will pretty much be an overkill on any kind of style you want. Support is dynamic, its not about dealing with an instant of a "high" note or something, its trainning the whole breathing mechanism to respond to whatever it needs to do, and after that using a holistic way to consolidate everything (focus).

There is not much formal material regarding the application of classical technique on pop, yet. ;) But really, Ive been singing a lot of stuff with no big concerns about support besides knowing what to do and when... And on most pop material, it wont get even near the ammount of engagement that is used when trainning.

If you train correctly, not classical, jazz, rock or pop, your voice will just respond to what you want to do. There is no need to do even one scale with a quality to sing Journey for example.

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Gilad... I am a singer who has to warm up the support and then coordinate it to my laryngeal configurations every day to sound halfway decent. I believe this has something to do with my speaking voice being mainly neutral and neutral with air with very little twang or support -- my usual speaking voice actually detunes my singing voice.

here are some of my favorite exercises for warming up my support.

Stretches to stretch and warm up the intercostals, internal+external obliques, pecs, lats, lumbar region of back. (I could elaborate further if needed.) This helps me "wake up" the support/anchoring muscles. I make a point of breathing into the stretches. I gathered my current list of stretches from multiple singing schools' ideas and drills.

Slow inhales through the nose while paying close attention to not using throat constrictions to slow airflow. Try to think about engaging your core muscles in order to inhale slower. Aim for 45 seconds to a minute. Repeat 3-5 times.

Slow exhales through an "SSS". I'm sure you've seen SSS exercises. The slow exhale requires a small sound.. one I would say is more ssss than SSSS. Take a deep low breath (feel the diaphragm suck in and the lower abs come out a bit even) and hold it for 3 seconds while checking right under your ribcage to see if your muscles are properly engaged or collapsing. If they're collapsing, you're probably using throat tension to hold your breath instead of the muscles. Next, exhale slowly through an sss sound while avoiding lip, tongue and throat constriction. The area under the ribcage should be trained to not collapse throughout the entire exhale, if I recall correctly. If anything, the diaphragm should stick out more and more as the support muscles deal with the constantly decreasing volume of air while trying to maintain expansion. I'd go for 45 seconds with the slow exhales.

Alexander Technique posture alignment practice - stand six inches away from a wall... practice slowly rocking your body back and letting your lower back, upper back, and head touch the wall simultaneously... esp the lower back. Practice anchoring the body with proper alignment like that and sing some vocalises or scales with your posture aligned by the wall. You should feel your lower abs pulling in while your sides and back are still expanded (using your lats and obliques to hold the rib expansion, essentially) and your diaphragm region slowly begin to puff out more and more (keeping ribcage expansion).

I find what is called "internal anchoring" with the inner obliques more difficult to engage than other support muscles. If I'm not standing or sitting well, it feels like I have trouble accessing it.

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Rachsing: Do you have any recommendation on reading materials, or videos on the net that you recommend? I have noticed to expand my ribs, i need to put some pressure on my abdomen. Does this mean that when I sing, i keep the same pressure on the abdomen as if I am doing the hissing exercise? Would that be the right assumption?

I highly recommend that you look into basic respiration physiology though it can be difficult to grasp in the beginning. There are varies ways to approach breath management and a lot of people swear by their own way, but respiration physiology is non biased.

For instance the approach you mention is only one of many. For instance it's called "Natural support" in CVT and is a very common "appoggio" technique in the Italian school.

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Gilad... I am a singer who has to warm up the support and then coordinate it to my laryngeal configurations every day to sound halfway decent. I believe this has something to do with my speaking voice being mainly neutral and neutral with air with very little twang or support -- my usual speaking voice actually detunes my singing voice.

here are some of my favorite exercises for warming up my support.

Stretches to stretch and warm up the intercostals, internal+external obliques, pecs, lats, lumbar region of back. (I could elaborate further if needed.) This helps me "wake up" the support/anchoring muscles. I make a point of breathing into the stretches. I gathered my current list of stretches from multiple singing schools' ideas and drills.

Slow inhales through the nose while paying close attention to not using throat constrictions to slow airflow. Try to think about engaging your core muscles in order to inhale slower. Aim for 45 seconds to a minute. Repeat 3-5 times.

Slow exhales through an "SSS". I'm sure you've seen SSS exercises. The slow exhale requires a small sound.. one I would say is more ssss than SSSS. Take a deep low breath (feel the diaphragm suck in and the lower abs come out a bit even) and hold it for 3 seconds while checking right under your ribcage to see if your muscles are properly engaged or collapsing. If they're collapsing, you're probably using throat tension to hold your breath instead of the muscles. Next, exhale slowly through an sss sound while avoiding lip, tongue and throat constriction. The area under the ribcage should be trained to not collapse throughout the entire exhale, if I recall correctly. If anything, the diaphragm should stick out more and more as the support muscles deal with the constantly decreasing volume of air while trying to maintain expansion. I'd go for 45 seconds with the slow exhales.

Alexander Technique posture alignment practice - stand six inches away from a wall... practice slowly rocking your body back and letting your lower back, upper back, and head touch the wall simultaneously... esp the lower back. Practice anchoring the body with proper alignment like that and sing some vocalises or scales with your posture aligned by the wall. You should feel your lower abs pulling in while your sides and back are still expanded (using your lats and obliques to hold the rib expansion, essentially) and your diaphragm region slowly begin to puff out more and more (keeping ribcage expansion).

I find what is called "internal anchoring" with the inner obliques more difficult to engage than other support muscles. If I'm not standing or sitting well, it feels like I have trouble accessing it.

Slowstart: Thanks man! I really appreciate it. Great explanation. Yes, please. I would like to know what your warmup routine for the support system. Can you email it to me by pvt messaging me?

Tomorrow, I will give your whole exercise routine a try. It sounds like it is solid. Thanks!

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Rach,

I recently have been able to use more support to aliviate pressure on my throat (which is not all the battle, as i need to center well the modes, but support can make that easier), and i discovered that is TIRING AS F*CK, i really never ever felt this tired, and for the first time i have to change clothes after my singing practice because of the excessive sweat. I think that on those 4 things you mentioned rach, probably the last 2 are very important but also the anaerobic and also aerobic would serve to build part of the stamina! dont you think?

Also, Kaare, one of the best cvt teachers says all the time that on the gigs he sweats more than the drummer!, dont you think it has to be this physical?

I see no problem in working on the 4 things you mention, as a whole, in breathing exercices, vocalizing and singing.

Gilad, you can learn a lot on your own in singing technique, but it is just different, and with 99% of the people it will be a lot slower than doing it with a good teacher (this is my case, and sometimes it is very frustrating).

Despite that, in my case i see a couple positive things in practicing and learning technique on your own: yeah it is a lot slower but, first, is cheaper (hahah okay that is obvious so lets skip that one).. you can really, slowly, take more awareness of your body, without the instructions of somebody else making noise everywhere, you can really really be in touch with yourself and develop some autonomy, resilience, and responsability of your process. and this is something i like from cvt, they like to put the responsability of the process in YOU, so if you read their book, or you see their advices on the forum, you can see that they make you experiment a lot, whenever the voice is healthy, with your muscle memory, their advices are made to make you create awareness, and discover the sounds you want in a healthy way, without a teacher, without giving you ONLY some personal images/sensations (they do, but it is just one piece of the cake, completely the opposite with classical in which images is almost all you have), and without the most complicated scientific explanations (that are just theory, without too much practical application. really, cvt is not so 'nerdy', complicated or rocket science as some people here tend to think, it is just ridiculously simple!, but of course, is not fast, it is always a process).

So you can learn it alone or with a teacher, we are all different :P

Jens is one of the best examples here on the forum about taking the road of being mainly self-taught! it is slower, he has said that, but, you can see the results. It just takes a lot of discipline, focus, and to be open to new things, to experiment, and even to be able to go back to basics if necessary (this is something im doing now, to really rebuild my whole head voice configuration, as im tired of strain, it's over for me with that).

Geran: Thank you very much for your opinion. I am in kind of an agreement with you. although I missed the support throughout my 20 years of singing, but I have gained a great range, and singing feels pretty natural except when i head up to those high notes. Deep in me, i know I have the tools to reach a C6 at least. I am now pretty confident that with the right support, I will be able to achieve my bigger goals. Jens is most definitely a good example for a self taught singer. He has an amazing skill, and superb knowledge.

At this point, on behalf of all the self-taught singers, I would like to really really thank everyone on this forum. You guys are a tremendous help to us! We would have been in a more confused world without you guys.

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It was mentioned that there is not much in the way of material to relate using classical technique to use in pop and rock music. I will have to differ, based on personal experience. In 1988, I checked out from the Dallas Public Library, "How To Sing" by Graham Hewitt. He was a classically trained singer and teacher and specifically wrote the book to help pop singers. He came from the same school of thought as Lilli Lehmann, who had a book by the same name, though published earlier. It was after using his book I could finally do all of "Stairway to Heaven" in full voice and could do "The Immigrant Song" and give my first wife a headache from the sheer ton of volume.

Other's mileage may vary.

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It was mentioned that there is not much in the way of material to relate using classical technique to use in pop and rock music. I will have to differ, based on personal experience. In 1988, I checked out from the Dallas Public Library, "How To Sing" by Graham Hewitt. He was a classically trained singer and teacher and specifically wrote the book to help pop singers. He came from the same school of thought as Lilli Lehmann, who had a book by the same name, though published earlier. It was after using his book I could finally do all of "Stairway to Heaven" in full voice and could do "The Immigrant Song" and give my first wife a headache from the sheer ton of volume.

Other's mileage may vary.

Was it mostly correct support you learned from it?

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