messa de voce rocks!!

[VideoHere]

this question is for all the "pros" out there. i have noticed that with the messa de voce exercise (a.k.a. transcending tone) you really can learn to get in touch and pass through all of the "voices" falsetto to head, head to middle/mixed, middle/mixed to full when done correctly.

how long did it take you folks before you could do that version of the exercise, that way, consistently? are there any supplemental exercises you have used to hasten the progress? i'm stuck right where the sound is swelling to middle voice. i break, click, you name it. it is very difficult for me to do at all.

are there stepping stones, or more interim steps i can take or should have taken?

i'm usng "yay" and running from e to g over the middle c note. thanks in advance for any help.

(and i think you folks owe me one, for hardly helping me improve on my "hot blooded.....lol!!!!)

[jonpall]

Do you get airy at some point (while thinking you're not)? You can often just hear it, or just feel it in your mouth. Maybe you could record yourself doing this and post it here for comments?

[aldertate]

this question is for all the "pros" out there. i have noticed that with the messa de voce exercise (a.k.a. transcending tone) you really can learn to get in touch and pass through all of the "voices" falsetto to head, head to middle/mixed, middle/mixed to full when done correctly.

how long did it take you folks before you could do that version of the exercise, that way, consistently? are there any supplemental exercises you have used to hasten the progress? i'm stuck right where the sound is swelling to middle voice. i break, click, you name it. it is very difficult for me to do at all.

are there stepping stones, or more interim steps i can take or should have taken?

i'm usng "yay" and running from e to g over the middle c note. thanks in advance for any help.

(and i think you folks owe me one, for hardly helping me improve on my "hot blooded.....lol!!!!)

Welcome to the passagio! lmao...

My understanding of the messa di voce is that it's a dynamic exercise that just regulates volume from pp to ff in the voice. I do a ascending scale going from to [o] then on the 5th changing to [a] and doing the messa followed up with an arpeggio back to the root (including the 7t below the root). do re mi fa sooo fa re ti do. Then once back on the root, and without changing mouth position I switch back to the initial vowel.

It's a great way to check to see if your giving your vowels the necessary space.

Check to see if your resonance shifts when going into the passagio, also check to see if your compensating with jaw/tongue/etc... doing the 'yay' exercise you should have minimal if any jaw movement. It's only a slight position shift in the tongue.

sirens and descending falsetto into the passagio can help you find the right 'space' and 'placement' necessary to safely navigate..

However.. without hearing anything, or being able to see you, it's near impossible to tell you what you're doing? Could you be over breathing? Of course. Could it be a jaw/tongue issue? Well.. yeah.. lmao..

This is the most critical part of the voice... where goes the passagio goes your technique.. the key to a great upper voice lies in safely navigation the passagio.

Good Luck! I'm there with you! I'm starting to have some success through it.. and am working on passagio heavy pieces right now...

You have to find the right balance..

[gno]

VIDEOHERE - I'm doing the excersize exactly the same way as Andy Rawn does in the clip you posted a while back:

It is working for me all the way up the traditional Tenor range without breaks. I'm just using ah for now. I do this maybe once or twice a week..just because of lack of practice time.

I'm doing the Loud - Soft - Loud version as Andy first demonstrates. I think this is the easier approach because you start with the full voice - and you stay in the full voice (even when quiet). Sounds like you may be doing Soft - Loud - Soft and you may be starting in falsetto which will then be hard to go into full voice without cracking. If you reverse it - you will learn what the "quiet" full voice is like, and then you can go back to soft - loud - soft starting on a quiet full voice. If you listen to Andy do it, you'll notice he doesn't go into falsetto at all. The Passiagio is tricky and definitely a higher degree of difficulty.

It worked for me right away - The way I approached it is when going Loud to Soft I didn't try to go really quiet right away. Just back off on the volume a little bit at first. Don't worry about getting really quiet right away. When you come back to the excersize the next day, you'll find you can go a little quiter. After a couple days it should be pretty easy. If you are cracking - give it a rest and dont try to go too quiet. It will come over time.

[VideoHere]

thanks folks...

still wouldn't mind some suggestions on the "hot blooded"

i can take it...lol!!!!

[gno]

VIDEOHERE - Ok - Hot Blooded sounds great! You've got a great voice! Now it is clear that you are singing in overdrive up there, which is up to you to sing it however you want. The original is sung - to me - in Curbing. To me Curbing would be easier to do, and it would cut a lot of weight and stress out of the tone. It would be less fatiguing - I beleive he does a lot of curbing in his songs. Not exactly sure where your development is currently, but by your posts I think you are at the point of developing your head voice (A4 and up). I think once you are vocalizing in your head voice (not overdrive) up there Every Day without strain, you will be able to sing Hot Blooded in a Curbing mode. This takes a while. I learned this over the last 4 months using Ken Tamplins DVD. Little by little gaining more control and more range. But it is tricky bridging through the passagio. Ken's method is the old Bel Canto approach which just plain works. Vowel modifications get you through the passagio into head.

[VideoHere]

VIDEOHERE - Ok - Hot Blooded sounds great! You've got a great voice! Now it is clear that you are singing in overdrive up there, which is up to you to sing it however you want. The original is sung - to me - in Curbing. To me Curbing would be easier to do, and it would cut a lot of weight and stress out of the tone. It would be less fatiguing - I beleive he does a lot of curbing in his songs. Not exactly sure where your development is currently, but by your posts I think you are at the point of developing your head voice (A4 and up). I think once you are vocalizing in your head voice (not overdrive) up there Every Day without strain, you will be able to sing Hot Blooded in a Curbing mode. This takes a while. I learned this over the last 4 months using Ken Tamplins DVD. Little by little gaining more control and more range. But it is tricky bridging through the passagio. Ken's method is the old Bel Canto approach which just plain works. Vowel modifications get you through the passagio into head.

thanks "g" i apprecaite it

i love the bel canto method too...see if you have seen these

enjoy

http://belcanto.myseriestv.com/showList.php

[classical guitar]

the messa di voce is one of those I struggled with forever... and ever. then I got Jaime Vendera's inhalation sensation concept down and I woke up the next day and could do it like a champ. Literally like an on off switch. To do it, I start on an empty set of lungs, breath in and about 1/4 way through the breath I start the phonation, but I keep the energy of the breath moving like it was when breathing in. When you get it right you'll know because the tone will be effortless.

[VideoHere]

the messa di voce is one of those I struggled with forever... and ever. then I got Jaime Vendera's inhalation sensation concept down and I woke up the next day and could do it like a champ. Literally like an on off switch. To do it, I start on an empty set of lungs, breath in and about 1/4 way through the breath I start the phonation, but I keep the energy of the breath moving like it was when breathing in. When you get it right you'll know because the tone will be effortless.

thanks...the 1/4 breath was helpful but i'm afraid i just can't grasp the inhalation sensation..i read that chapter so many times.

would you care to elaborate or a link or something?

[Steven Fraser]

the 1/4 breath was helpful but i'm afraid i just can't grasp the inhalation sensation..i read that chapter so many times.

would you care to elaborate or a link or something?

VIDEOHERE: I'll take a shot. Its a sensation that often accompanies the balanced breath, and used as an image, can help keep the diaphragm active while the tone is being produced.

Remember: the diaphragm is a muscle of inhalation, not exhalation. When it flexes, it flattens down and forward and you inhale as a result. This exercise and image are to keep it from relaxing up as a note is sung. When it does not relax up, it provides a balancinig force to keep the abs from overblowing the muscles of the larynx during phonation.

FYI, this exercise and metaphor have been around for literally hundreds of years. Jaime uses it because it WORKS.

Assume your singing posture. For this exercise, do not let the chest heave up or down. Keep the sternum in a stable position.

Step 1:

Take in a slow, 1/4 breath, and when you get to 1/4 full, slow and stop your inhale, leaving your throat open. Notice that the epigastric region (right below the sternum) is bulged-out a bit, indicating that the diaphragm is down somewhat. Resume slowly inhaling until you are 1/2 full, and stop again, with throat open.

Before you pass out, exhale normally, and repeat Step 1, 2 or 3 more times.

Step 2:

When you get to 1/4 full, notice the sensation you have in your body. You've stopped inhaling, but your throat is still open, and you are not yet exhaling. You have achieved a complete balance between the action of inhaling and the forces which will cause you to exhale if you relax. When you go to 1/2 full, you will notice that the sensation is a bit more intense, because the inhale is now balanced with stronger exhalation forces. The reason is that our normal exhale is powered by the energy stored in the body during the inhale... kinda like stretching an elastic band farther causes it to snap back harder.

Breath out, and repeat step 2 a few more times. The idea is to get the sensation of what this balanced breath feels like.

Step 3:

Now, take in a slow, 1/2 breath, stop inhaling (throat open, still) and then over a count of 10, exhale back to 1/4 full. The epigastrum will stay bulged forward. This exhalation is being controlled by the continued action of the diaphragm. Professor Hanson of the University of Northern Arizona called this the 'fogging the glasses' breath... a slow, warm exhale, just like someone would use to fog their glasses for cleaning.

Inhale from the 1/4 back to the 1/2, and stop for a few seconds, throat open. Exhale completely.

Repeat step 3 this until you become further acquainted with the body sensations that go with this.

Now, we add onsets... phonation.

Step 4:

Breathe in slowly to 1/4, create your balance, and 'say' (not sing) a very short ah vowel in your speaking voice range, while trying to inhale. You will not be able to do both. What will happen is that your body will make the 'ah', reversing the flow of air to do so. You won't inhale. BUT, the muscle action at the level of the diaphragm will continue as if you are. It will stay engaged. This is what you want.... to start phonation, while retaining diaphragmatic engagement.

Repeat in speaking voice range, 1 short onset every few seconds, for a few minutes, exhaling whenever you need to. After a breath, establish your balance, and continue.

Step 5

Repeat the onsets, using actual (but short) notes in the lower range. With 15-30 minutes of just starting notes this way, I think you will get the hang of the feelings involved. You can then move up into the mid voice, and repeat.

Keep in mind that the bulged-forward epigastrum is a good indicator that the diaphragm is still engaged. If you get a hollow spot there during an exhale, it has relaxed, and you have lost your breath control.

I hope this helps.

[VideoHere]

VIDEOHERE: I'll take a shot. Its a sensation that often accompanies the balanced breath, and used as an image, can help keep the diaphragm active while the tone is being produced.

Remember: the diaphragm is a muscle of inhalation, not exhalation. When it flexes, it flattens down and forward and you inhale as a result. This exercise and image are to keep it from relaxing up as a note is sung. When it does not relax up, it provides a balancinig force to keep the abs from overblowing the muscles of the larynx during phonation.

FYI, this exercise and metaphor have been around for literally hundreds of years. Jaime uses it because it WORKS.

Assume your singing posture. For this exercise, do not let the chest heave up or down. Keep the sternum in a stable position.

Step 1:

Take in a slow, 1/4 breath, and when you get to 1/4 full, slow and stop your inhale, leaving your throat open. Notice that the epigastric region (right below the sternum) is bulged-out a bit, indicating that the diaphragm is down somewhat. Resume slowly inhaling until you are 1/2 full, and stop again, with throat open.

Before you pass out, exhale normally, and repeat Step 1, 2 or 3 more times.

Step 2:

When you get to 1/4 full, notice the sensation you have in your body. You've stopped inhaling, but your throat is still open, and you are not yet exhaling. You have achieved a complete balance between the action of inhaling and the forces which will cause you to exhale if you relax. When you go to 1/2 full, you will notice that the sensation is a bit more intense, because the inhale is now balanced with stronger exhalation forces. The reason is that our normal exhale is powered by the energy stored in the body during the inhale... kinda like stretching an elastic band farther causes it to snap back harder.

Breath out, and repeat step 2 a few more times. The idea is to get the sensation of what this balanced breath feels like.

Step 3:

Now, take in a slow, 1/2 breath, stop inhaling (throat open, still) and then over a count of 10, exhale back to 1/4 full. The epigastrum will stay bulged forward. This exhalation is being controlled by the continued action of the diaphragm. Professor Hanson of the University of Northern Arizona called this the 'fogging the glasses' breath... a slow, warm exhale, just like someone would use to fog their glasses for cleaning.

Inhale from the 1/4 back to the 1/2, and stop for a few seconds, throat open. Exhale completely.

Repeat step 3 this until you become further acquainted with the body sensations that go with this.

Now, we add onsets... phonation.

Step 4:

Breathe in slowly to 1/4, create your balance, and 'say' (not sing) a very short ah vowel in your speaking voice range, while trying to inhale. You will not be able to do both. What will happen is that your body will make the 'ah', reversing the flow of air to do so. You won't inhale. BUT, the muscle action at the level of the diaphragm will continue as if you are. It will stay engaged. This is what you want.... to start phonation, while retaining diaphragmatic engagement.

Repeat in speaking voice range, 1 short onset every few seconds, for a few minutes, exhaling whenever you need to. After a breath, establish your balance, and continue.

Step 5

Repeat the onsets, using actual (but short) notes in the lower range. With 15-30 minutes of just starting notes this way, I think you will get the hang of the feelings involved. You can then move up into the mid voice, and repeat.

Keep in mind that the bulged-forward epigastrum is a good indicator that the diaphragm is still engaged. If you get a hollow spot there during an exhale, it has relaxed, and you have lost your breath control.

I hope this helps.

yes, steve...i've got it...it's subtle but i feel wat you mean especially the eyeglass fogging...thanks as always!!

[VideoHere]

VIDEOHERE: I'll take a shot. Its a sensation that often accompanies the balanced breath, and used as an image, can help keep the diaphragm active while the tone is being produced.

Remember: the diaphragm is a muscle of inhalation, not exhalation. When it flexes, it flattens down and forward and you inhale as a result. This exercise and image are to keep it from relaxing up as a note is sung. When it does not relax up, it provides a balancinig force to keep the abs from overblowing the muscles of the larynx during phonation.

FYI, this exercise and metaphor have been around for literally hundreds of years. Jaime uses it because it WORKS.

Assume your singing posture. For this exercise, do not let the chest heave up or down. Keep the sternum in a stable position.

Step 1:

Take in a slow, 1/4 breath, and when you get to 1/4 full, slow and stop your inhale, leaving your throat open. Notice that the epigastric region (right below the sternum) is bulged-out a bit, indicating that the diaphragm is down somewhat. Resume slowly inhaling until you are 1/2 full, and stop again, with throat open.

Before you pass out, exhale normally, and repeat Step 1, 2 or 3 more times.

Step 2:

When you get to 1/4 full, notice the sensation you have in your body. You've stopped inhaling, but your throat is still open, and you are not yet exhaling. You have achieved a complete balance between the action of inhaling and the forces which will cause you to exhale if you relax. When you go to 1/2 full, you will notice that the sensation is a bit more intense, because the inhale is now balanced with stronger exhalation forces. The reason is that our normal exhale is powered by the energy stored in the body during the inhale... kinda like stretching an elastic band farther causes it to snap back harder.

Breath out, and repeat step 2 a few more times. The idea is to get the sensation of what this balanced breath feels like.

Step 3:

Now, take in a slow, 1/2 breath, stop inhaling (throat open, still) and then over a count of 10, exhale back to 1/4 full. The epigastrum will stay bulged forward. This exhalation is being controlled by the continued action of the diaphragm. Professor Hanson of the University of Northern Arizona called this the 'fogging the glasses' breath... a slow, warm exhale, just like someone would use to fog their glasses for cleaning.

Inhale from the 1/4 back to the 1/2, and stop for a few seconds, throat open. Exhale completely.

Repeat step 3 this until you become further acquainted with the body sensations that go with this.

Now, we add onsets... phonation.

Step 4:

Breathe in slowly to 1/4, create your balance, and 'say' (not sing) a very short ah vowel in your speaking voice range, while trying to inhale. You will not be able to do both. What will happen is that your body will make the 'ah', reversing the flow of air to do so. You won't inhale. BUT, the muscle action at the level of the diaphragm will continue as if you are. It will stay engaged. This is what you want.... to start phonation, while retaining diaphragmatic engagement.

Repeat in speaking voice range, 1 short onset every few seconds, for a few minutes, exhaling whenever you need to. After a breath, establish your balance, and continue.

Step 5

Repeat the onsets, using actual (but short) notes in the lower range. With 15-30 minutes of just starting notes this way, I think you will get the hang of the feelings involved. You can then move up into the mid voice, and repeat.

Keep in mind that the bulged-forward epigastrum is a good indicator that the diaphragm is still engaged. If you get a hollow spot there during an exhale, it has relaxed, and you have lost your breath control.

I hope this helps.

hey steve, is the i.s. the sensation i get when i feel like the the voice or tone is "suspended" where the sound is coming out of you, but you feel like the note can go on forever?

[Steven Fraser]

hey steve, is the i.s. the sensation i get when i feel like the the voice or tone is "suspended" where the sound is coming out of you, but you feel like the note can go on forever?

VIDEOHERE: comparing 'feelings' is always a challenge. I think it is reasonable, though, that you'd have the sensation that the note can go on forever.

The 'why' of it is because of the efficiency of the phonation... If glottal closure is firm, then this sort of singing uses very little air, only what is needed. The result is that a note can be sustained a long time.

There are other, beneficial effects of using this technique. It reduces restricting strain in the throat, increasing the sense of openness and ease. It greatly increases the dynamic control and range, especially toward the soft end. Legato singing is made easier, and when combined with dynamic shaping, makes for a more supple melodic line. It makes possible finer gradations of registration and adduction which are needed for passaggio and higher notes. Overall body level-of-effort is reduced to just what is needed to produce the note you are intending.

Here's something else you can try while doing this... try some 1-octave slides (sirens) at medium-soft dynamic, maintaining the sensation of inhalation. With just a little practice, I think you'll find that your voice can automatically and smoothly adjust to the different changes... with fewer or no blips.

I hope this helps.

[VideoHere]

steve, the only thing i notice sometimes is if i'm in that i.s. mode and the note is just, as a said, suspended i do sometimes get a some pressure tha builds up in the forehead and a feeling like i'm singing, but not exhaling any air....is this okay, not detrimental healthwise?

[Steven Fraser]

steve, the only thing i notice sometimes is if i'm in that i.s. mode and the note is just, as a said, suspended i do sometimes get a some pressure tha builds up in the forehead and a feeling like i'm singing, but not exhaling any air....is this okay, not detrimental healthwise?

Bob: Watch yourself in the mirror, to make sure that the forehead pressure is not from wrinkling up your brow in concentration.

Otherwise, I should say that the 'balance' does result in some pressure in the abdomen. The internal organs are somewhat pressurized between the descended diaphragm and the abs which are trying to force an exhale.

Its quite possible you have abs in great shape. If that is the case, it will take some work by the diaphragm to balance them. This will raise your blood pressure some. You can also let your abs relax (not bulge out, but be somewhat un-stiff) and still get the balance effect, but at a lower overall energy level.

Another way to practice this is to lay down on your back on the floor. Try letting your belly be the firmness of jello, and set up the balance, and sing. With some experimentation, I think you'll find you can sing without ab rigidity... only a little firmness is needed except for the very loudest notes.

[VideoHere]

thanks steve,i do a lot of breath work..maybe it's paying off...while i've got you, a lot of instructors advocate on the real high power notes to pull the diaphram in (roger kain emphasizes that) he's always saying "diapragm in on the top notes, then let the diaphragm look after itself on the way down."

how do you feel about that?

[Steven Fraser]

thanks steve,i do a lot of breath work..maybe it's paying off...while i've got you, a lot of instructors advocate on the real high power notes to pull the diaphram in (roger kain emphasizes that) he's always saying "diapragm in on the top notes, then let the diaphragm look after itself on the way down."

how do you feel about that?

Bob,

There must be some mixing of terminology here, because the diaphragm does not go in and out, it goes up and down.

If you can point me to the reference, I'd be happy to look up the original quote and see what he meant in context.

[VideoHere]

Bob,

There must be some mixing of terminology here, because the diaphragm does not go in and out, it goes up and down.

If you can point me to the reference, I'd be happy to look up the original quote and see what he meant in context.

steve, i hope this helps...it's from a cd of vocal exercises by roger kain. he reiterates this concept often.

http://www.box.net/shared/64gft34r5k

[Steven Fraser]

steve, i hope this helps...it's from a cd of vocal exercises by roger kain. he reiterates this concept often.

http://www.box.net/shared/64gft34r5k

Bob, Based on the context, when Mr. Kain refers to 'pulling in' the diaphragm, he is talking about something else. If he is suggesting that the epigastrum be pulled in for the top notes on that exercise, I see no reason to do that deliberately, if at all.

[VideoHere]

Bob, Based on the context, when Mr. Kain refers to 'pulling in' the diaphragm, he is talking about something else. If he is suggesting that the epigastrum be pulled in for the top notes on that exercise, I see no reason to do that deliberately, if at all.

steve, i looked through his book over te weekend and he said diaphragm meant stomach. sorry i missed that. i've tried that pulling in for the top note with survivor's "the search is over" the phrase in the chorus "and good luck it finally struck" the "luck" and the "struck" was a lot less strident.

2:30 to 2:40

is pullin in the stomach acceptable?

[Steven Fraser]

steve, i looked through his book over te weekend and he said diaphragm meant stomach. sorry i missed that. i've tried that pulling in for the top note with survivor's "the search is over" the phrase in the chorus "and good luck it finally struck" the "luck" and the "struck" was a lot less strident.

2:30 to 2:40

is pullin in the stomach acceptable?

Bob: If posture is good, the lower abdominal muscles go in, all on their own, when you produce a vocal sound. Its quite fine to let this happen.

However, that you seem to sound better when you do it _deliberately_ may mean that your breath management in this pitch area is just a little out of balance, perhaps too much 'firming' of the abs with them in opposition with the (actual) diaphragm. Unless I misunderstand what you are doing, in your action to 'pull in ' the stomach, you are letting up on this firming a little (by letting the diaphragm relax just a bit), so that the abs can come in like they should anyway.

The result of 'over-firming' would be a singing without not quite enough breath flow. You can experiement with this by just reducing the firmness of the abs as you sing a note. As I have mentioned before, 'trying' to support often leads to 'too much': 1) too much ab contraction... or 2) too much diaphragmatic resistance, or 3) too much of both. If #1, , then the tone can become pushed and throaty, and oversinging can result. If #2, then the tone becomes starved for air. If 3), then the whole abdominal region becomes stiff, and tension communicates to the rest of the body, and too much work is done everywhere.

Ultimately, its your body and your voice that will tell you what works for you, and what does not. If this approch works for the top notes, try using it everywhere... in other pitch regions Let your midsection relax some, so that your abdomen is not so pressurized. Rigidity anywhere is the enemy of free singing.

[VideoHere]

Bob: If posture is good, the lower abdominal muscles go in, all on their own, when you produce a vocal sound. Its quite fine to let this happen.

However, that you seem to sound better when you do it _deliberately_ may mean that your breath management in this pitch area is just a little out of balance, perhaps too much 'firming' of the abs with them in opposition with the (actual) diaphragm. Unless I misunderstand what you are doing, in your action to 'pull in ' the stomach, you are letting up on this firming a little (by letting the diaphragm relax just a bit), so that the abs can come in like they should anyway.

The result of 'over-firming' would be a singing without not quite enough breath flow. You can experiement with this by just reducing the firmness of the abs as you sing a note. As I have mentioned before, 'trying' to support often leads to 'too much': 1) too much ab contraction... or 2) too much diaphragmatic resistance, or 3) too much of both. If #1, , then the tone can become pushed and throaty, and oversinging can result. If #2, then the tone becomes starved for air. If 3), then the whole abdominal region becomes stiff, and tension communicates to the rest of the body, and too much work is done everywhere.

Ultimately, its your body and your voice that will tell you what works for you, and what does not. If this approch works for the top notes, try using it everywhere... in other pitch regions Let your midsection relax some, so that your abdomen is not so pressurized. Rigidity anywhere is the enemy of free singing.

got it steve, thanks as usual it's apprecaited