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When do you stop taking voice lessons?

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Hanalei

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? I know the answer but I'd like to know from the panel of professionals. How much singing? What style of singing? Could cause hoarseness. And do you know this from experience or things you've read in books. So a singer will never get hoarse or tired and need rest even if there tech is very good? Eagerly awaiting the answers from the experienced

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Could you explain more clearly what you mean by that?

Are you saying that hurting your voice is okay but less efficient technique is not? Or that if you are hurting your voice, lessons won't help? That we can't unknowingly hurt our voices? That hurting your voice has nothing to do with technique?

It could be interpreted as any of those things...

What exactly is true regarding less efficient technique and what exactly is incorrect regarding hurting your voice?

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Hanalei - I don't mean to discourage you from taking voice lessons. I think it would be good thing to keep taking them. And I don't want to lead you down the wrong path - your teacher knows you way better than me. To sing out in public you need rhythm, attitude, phrasing, pitch, tone, - and that stuff you've got already. Now you need to build confidence and stage presence. Lessons and singing out in public can go hand in hand.

And listen to Rach - he's right. If you start to feel hoarse that is bad and lessons can help with that. If you got a gig singing 5 nights a week and you started to get hoarse you may have to quit the gig. But often you may start singing once a week, and have plenty of time to recover before your next gig. Or you may rehearse with a band more often and then gauge your vocal health. You're not going to know until you try. I guess I would encourage you to start out little by little, before getting in too deep too fast.

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Oh, no, no, you're not discouraging me from lessons. Money is tight right now so I have to take a break sooner or later. It's just very helpful getting all of the answers from you and everyone else on this thread of how many lessons are good. Seems to vary quite a bit. I'm not going to stop taking them right now, but I am probably going to stretch them out a bit more. It's just kind of weird to me having other people tell me I can go and find some gigs when I still sound weird to myself. :P If you'd told me a year ago I'd be taking singing lessons I'd have thought you were nuts.

I guess part of the problem is I have no idea how to really find anyone to play with as any kind of band. I'm in a very rural area with not a huge music scene. There's Craigslist and such, but that's usually not that good.

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Hanalei - is that you playing guitar? If so, maybe you want to just start off at a coffee shop doing a few songs with you and your guitar? (for free) Maybe put on a short performance for friends. You know, work up a set of a dozen songs and practice your "act". Have a friend or family member take a video. Just start out really small. You may only perform once a month at the beginning. Then you work on a demo tape / video which you can use to send to potential bands that are looking for a singer. These are just a couple things that come to mind.

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Come on Rach wouldn't you say it also had to do with your schedule. Even opera singers like Jdf says he has to watch his schedule so it doesn't mess with him. I know personally I've been hoarse before but I was doing 13 nights in a row sometimes 2 3 -4 hour shows a day. Singing very high and lower demanding songs. This thing of "oh you won't get hoarse if your technique is good" my method is guaranteed to keep you from getting hoarse is bologna. If your hoarse from a 2 hour exercise with scales and vocalises yeah maybe you should re evaluate.

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Come on Rach wouldn't you say it also had to do with your schedule. Even opera singers like Jdf says he has to watch his schedule so it doesn't mess with him. I know personally I've been hoarse before but I was doing 13 nights in a row sometimes 2 3 -4 hour shows a day. Singing very high and lower demanding songs. This thing of "oh you won't get hoarse if your technique is good" my method is guaranteed to keep you from getting hoarse is bologna. If your hoarse from a 2 hour exercise with scales and vocalises yeah maybe you should re evaluate.

Also if you are a theatre singer or opera singer you may only be singing 5-10 songs a night tops. So you better not get hoarse..:) that is much different then what a lot if my friends and associates do. We work very hard overworked underpayed.

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Daniel ask for opinions from the pros. Pro teachers or pro singers, such as your self?

For the pros in the rock field have this to say about singing.

"Do what it is your voice can do, don't do what it cannot do."

"Hydration."

"Get plenty of rest."

So, read that last part again. And, many times in this forum, people have mentioned how some opera singers still suffered damage in spite of a decade of training and "technique." Even if I discount half of those statements on the grounds of people being contentious and not able to lose or concede an argument ever and amen, there could still be some credence to the notion.

And I have read interviews of some of them, and the memoirs of Russell Watson and Renee Fleming. And rest is important. And knowing your voice and knowing that there are some roles and fachs you should not sing.

And so the question was asked, how do we determine if damage has occured? And if we follow the advice of only train with a coach and take live lessons, does that guarantee against damage? Are we looking to place liability on the singing teacher?

Did we not have discussions about whether or not Steve Perry has damaged himself? For once, people, please put aside your blind hatred of justinothersinger and ask the honest question, has Steve Perry damaged himself? If so, from what? Lack of technique or improper technique? And who taught him to sing like that? Or was it from workload, as in, not enough rest? That was never adequately answered as it became a political firefight rather than an honest discussion.

What about discussions Geoff Tate's state of voice? He did study with Maestro David Kyle, per his own words in interviews. Is that an indictment against Kyle (RIP)?

I'm not saying that Hanalei would not improve with more lessons. He will simply decide what he is going to do and live with the consequences, good or bad, as we all do.

And yes, he already possesses what is necessary to be pro, at whatever level he wants to achieve. And will he, over time, seek out advice, tips, even some lessons, now and then? Sure.

Can a natural singer such as he damage himself? Yes. And so can someone who has had lessons, including years of them, if we are to believe those who have mentioned opera singers suffering damage in spite of years of in-person guided instruction and years of professional experience.

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I defer to Daniel on this - he is a pro with a ton of experience. My belief is that singers with great technique can damage with overuse. History is loaded with examples. My sister had good technique but developed nodes from a heavy performing schedule. She didn't suffer permanent damage though, she can sing fine now.

And yes Ron, we never came to the answer for Steve Perry. Probably because Steve is such a private guy that we'll never know. But from all the evidence presented on the infamous thread it would be my inclination to believe that it was his work schedule that created issues. Remember, there were live videos presented from the early 90's that show Steve singing pretty well - up in the D5 range. And that was years after the so called permanent damage occurred. But even those plugged into the "scene" don't really know for sure. Like I said, my idol and friend Gino Vannelli told me he heard that Steve damaged his voice from using a "splatty" tone and not covering. But that's just what he heard - he didn't know for sure either.

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And I am inclined to agree with you, Geno, that Perry suffered from work load, as anyone would. For an opera singer to say that Perry damaged his voice from incorrect technique is to totally ignore the working environment and touring schedule of Journey, which was 15 years on the road, with Perry. In venues that are not acoustically engineered like performance halls and opera houses are. I absolutely refuse to believe that performing in the Majestic Theater is the same acoustic environment as playing at Shea Stadium and no amount of verbal browbeating by anyone can change my mind. Which means that Perry had harsher conditions to face.

Which kind of backs up Daniel's point. One can get hoarse or tired, depending on the work load.

In an interview with opera divas, even they pace their "set." How many pieces in the evening have extended high pitch, high volume parts? It makes a difference and these were ladies who trained for 10+ years before getting lead and premiere roles.

So, can we turn this around for someone like Hanalei? Yes, he could take more lessons and it is no guarantee that he will not suffer damage (nor do I say that to protect any singing teachers against liability.) Or, he could follow the advice of Phil and train for what he needs for the music he is doing (which is what most successful singers do) and go from there.

And, how are we going to define damage? Jon Bon Jovi is singing cleaner now than he did before and many feel that he has "lost" something. In the same breathe, he and Perry are using the same amount of nasalance yet Perry is the "golden god of voice." If either one still has pitch accuracy and relevant volume, the rest is aesthetics.

Or is it all about range? As Bob has pointed out, if you really want to solidify the voice into "one voice," you sometimes have to give up the very extremes of range. And is that so bad? Who really cares if you can sing an C6? Or an E2, for that matter? Can you sing the song in a way that others also like, is important. Can you do that for the length of career that you want to have?

A lot of people want a magic number. How many lessons? For how long? It seems to fit in with goals. That's cool. But it doesn't matter for how long or how many, what matters is how.

It's like Ray Wylie Hubbard asks, when performing "Redneck Mothers," "The thing you have to ask yourself as a singer/songwriter is, can I sing this song for the next 40 years?"

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Daniel,

I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that signs of hoarseness is an indicator that you are on your way to hurting your voice. I never said anything about technique. You can have the best technique in the world and still get hoarse sometimes for various reasons like for instance tiredness. But that hoarseness is still an indicator that if you continue you are risking vocal damage.

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Daniel,

I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that signs of hoarseness is an indicator that you are on your way to hurting your voice. I never said anything about technique.

And could I suggest that a key thing in a singer's "technique" is rest and managing the work load?

Or is "technique" soley about physical set-up in a note?

I could be mashing semantics like potatos and may be wrong.

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Ron,

Exactly. Within speech-language pathology things like rest, hydration etc. Is referred to as "vocal hygiene". It's a part of the package of healthy voice use.

Thanks for the clarification. I think your explanation was better than mine.

It was often that people compared singing to other athletic endeavors. And even trained athletes can get tired, sore, and suffer damage, from work load. There is a reason that pro football coaches do not play the star players the entire game. Because even a trained body has limits of endurance. They save the stars for key plays and the start of each new possession of the ball. I am not knocking technique and practice. I just don't think that technique, alone, is what saves a singer. Or is it? How many times have I said that it is not how much you sing, it's how you sing? Am I contradicting myself and being self-serving in doing so?

I guess, I am mental. :lol:

They say, you see in others what you see in yourself.

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Of course a good technique can go a long way. But in my field we often work with vocal hygiene as the primary treatment. And that can be many things. For instance telling the schoolteacher not to speak when writing on the chalkboard because they have their back against the students etc.

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awesome answers. So i would just like to say, I wouldnt say seeing a teacher,coach speech pathologist can save you from being hoarse only you can save you from being hoarse if you take on a heavy workload just like anything your going to have to feed the meter. Pro athletes have the greatest coaches, therapists, trainers you could ask for but they still blow out their knees,shoulders, poor Kobe and his achillies heal. Ive been playing guitar since i was a kid started at 8-10 hours a day (skipped school). Now every once in a while my left wrist swells up and I have a hard time playing. Would I take back a life of gigging and seeing the world on someones dime uh nope..

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Jinxed myself i have a gig tonite and my wrist is so swollen cant even bend it, but it wont stop me:P I can't take the wrist with me when I die so cheers.....

Can you imagine if Rod Stewart decided just be baby his voice and not practice anything out of his comfy range we would have never heard that voice> And Rod Trained with Nate lamm(i trained with him as well) for a while back in the 70's who is a great teacher But it didnt stop him from making those cool soulful sounds....

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Excellent answer, Daniel. When I was a kid, I was kind of like Kip Winger. I liked playing guitar and singing and twirling around like a ballet dancer. So, my step-grandfather would give me books on electricity, Einstein's special and general theories of relativity and tell me to "figure it out for yourself." And "always have something to fall back on." I was supposed to be a doctor or engineer. And my major at UT Arlington in 1982 was EE. Wound up in electrical work. Would I trade the knots in my back, the torn intermedial cartilege in my left knee and the weakness in my right knee, and the scars and acuired frostbite to be a rock star?

Yeah, I would. :D

As it is, I wake up in the morning and groan out of bed like Nick Nolte in "North Dallas 40." Instead of a shot, my day starts at 4 am with coffee and ibuprofen.

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