Back with my troubles

[D.Starr]

Not been having much success. Really low on cash to be booking any lessons. Been drilling through TVS Pillars and having a few successes but the main problem is having to use a quack formation to get through the bridge or even sing most notes and its taking a toll on my voice.

Got back into watching the middle voice part 4 video on Youtube. I can reach the Tenor high C but it sounds extremely quacky and the back of my throat begins to become scratchy. Is there anything I can do to ease the scratchy feeling and the quack?

Here is the included clip.

https://www.box.com/s/1ythxl005tqn0ie5fdcu

I went through various things on this. Quite a lot of release.

https://www.box.com/s/xy1qq1vfftib69fa2h0t

It's really annoying me because I'm thinking of just giving up you know? I've listened to Vedo the singer and tried to imitate how he sings. He has a light edge sound as well as sounding slightly covered. Not had much success haha.

Think I may have to rethink my support maybe and head for loosing this vocal weight to ease the squeeze.

[Owen Korzec]

Practice with a really dopey falsettoey yawn like sound for a while and try to bridge with that. Use no twang and super low larynx. for a while. Lighten the mass get rid of the squeeze and just sing scales songs sirens etc as dark as you can. If its limiting your range go lighter. Do that for about a week, then the next week, try to combine it with some twang by splitting the difference between your new and old habits to find a balance.

And on that second week practice this:

[Owen Korzec]

Have patience. Like you I've had an ongoing vocal struggle I can't seem to fix as a vocalist except its not quacking its clunky bridging. But I just keep singing cause its not the end of the world im still a good singer and I know if I keep at this for years with determination focus and strategy, i know at some point ill fix that one Achilles heel in my technique.

[Nicogratouille]

D.Starr,

On the first clip you are squeezing and your larynx goes up. Two ways you can approach this:

- Try to add more and more "dopyness" as you ascend the scale.

- Color the vowel a little more towards "oo" especially on the G4 and C5.

Hope that helps,

Nick

[Guest]

How do you maintain adduction while being dopey ?

[Nicogratouille]

How do you maintain adduction while being dopey ?

Those are two completely different parameters in my opinion. Do you know how to lean into the sound / moan / cry?

Anyway, here's how I do the mums (top note is C#5):

https://www.box.com/s/febrzrrcgf0c5w7sgb1i

Nick

[Owen Korzec]

How do you maintain adduction while being dopey ?

Dampen and release onsets. "Buh"

[Danielformica]

If any of you guys are around and are having problems hit me up on skype I'll help ya out. If you have been struggling with something and don't understand why or its on going i wanna help no charge just hit me up..

daniel

[Willise]

This has been an issue with me as well - I can drop the larynx without any issues, but virtually every time I go through my break, I go to falsetto.

I have tried the NAY, BUH, GUG exercises ad naseum, but still break into falsetto. I have been trying the quack and release onset to fix it, but even then, I have trouble getting the "laser like" sound at the beginning of the onset.

I think I can do it sometimes, but when I do, my throat gets a little sore - so that cannot be right.

How do you know if you have poor adduction in chest voice? The breathiness would not be as evident would it?

Thanks a million!

[Owen Korzec]

This has been an issue with me as well - I can drop the larynx without any issues, but virtually every time I go through my break, I go to falsetto.

I have tried the NAY, BUH, GUG exercises ad naseum, but still break into falsetto. I have been trying the quack and release onset to fix it, but even then, I have trouble getting the "laser like" sound at the beginning of the onset.

I think I can do it sometimes, but when I do, my throat gets a little sore - so that cannot be right.

How do you know if you have poor adduction in chest voice? The breathiness would not be as evident would it?

Thanks a million!

Your throat will get a little sore in the beginning when you are training twang. You will get those laser like ee's for maybe 10 minutes and then you may feel some lactic acid around the larynx. This is perfectly healthy training as long as you rest once the fatigue kicks in and allow the muscles to recuperate. Over time, if you train twang in this aggressive manner, the intrinsic muscular coordinations will strengthen allowing the accessory extrinsic muscles to start naturally removing themselves from the coordination decreasing the amount of effort, and it will get progressively easier and quicker to access twang each time you try to find it. Your stamina and endurance in phonating with twang compression will also increase over time.

That is part of the trick to training twang...you have to be aggressive with it. It is exactly like working out in the gym. Not in the sense of what's actually happening, but how you're going to train it. Contract until fatigue, then rest.

Do this all with lots of warm hydration.

You know if you have poor adduction in chest voice if you can't get a bright buzzing timbre throughout most of it...I know with my chest voice that every note from my lowest reliable note to the highest note I can belt, I can fully apply twang to all of those notes. If you are getting dead spots where no matter what your chest voice is breathy, that's poor adduction in chest voice. Of course we can all sing breathy in chest voice if we want to. It's only a problem when you can't sing those notes fully adducted as well.

It's worth working on adduction in any areas of your chest voice that are lacking it. Typically it's the very low end where it's hardest to get.

[Slow Start]

If any of you guys are around and are having problems hit me up on skype I'll help ya out. If you have been struggling with something and don't understand why or its on going i wanna help no charge just hit me up..

daniel

Dan... just wanted to tell you myself...

You. are. awesome.

Seriously.

[forest_gimp]

Hello guys,

D Starr, don't give up, what you are doing does not sound too bad and you will be able to have the sound you are searching for with a few arrangements. To have a dopier sound, one exercice you can practise is the " bouah bouah bouah " sound with a very lose jaw. This will keep your lrynx in a low position and avoid some quackiness.

I also think that training curbing ( ie : moan, cry) is not the only option you have to sing high notes. If you are familiar with TVS methodology, you can try a different approach, when you sing these notes mostly in M2 and learn to cover them properly. Here is a video that i repost, of me phonating a high C in this fashion :

I am not sure if this is the sound you are searching for, though.

[gilad]

Dan,

That is so graceful!! :cool:

[Willise]

Thanks for the insight Owen. I think some of my problem may be breath control. I never run out of breath, but I don't think it is compressed enough to help me keep the cords closed. When I try to go higher, I let out too much air and force the cords open.

I have been practicing with this theory - so I don't know if it is technically accurate or beneficial, but let me know what you think. If I take in a breath and hold it - my cords must close or else I couldn't hold my breath, right? Now I am starting with staccato exercises from a closed cord position. Do you think that is a reasonable exercise?

Daniel - That is a very generous offer! I generally like to try and figure things out from reading numerous posts, articles, etc and then practicing various techniques. You can never have too much knowledge! LOL However, I may take you up on that offer someday, as I'm sure many others will as well.

[Mr Bounce]

I have been practicing with this theory - so I don't know if it is technically accurate or beneficial, but let me know what you think. If I take in a breath and hold it - my cords must close or else I couldn't hold my breath, right? Now I am starting with staccato exercises from a closed cord position. Do you think that is a reasonable exercise?

The problem with this exercise is that you're not letting your support muscles do their job. The exhalation force is being held back by only the vocal folds. Try this: hold your breath, then open your throat and don't let the air escape. Basically what is happening is muscles in your torso are resisting the exhalation, and thus you now have control over how much air you're applying to the vocal folds. This is the beginning of support and without this you may find it hard to train it.

[Owen Korzec]

Thanks for the insight Owen. I think some of my problem may be breath control. I never run out of breath, but I don't think it is compressed enough to help me keep the cords closed. When I try to go higher, I let out too much air and force the cords open.

I wanna say once and for all...IMO, what you are doing down below has little impact on the amount of glottal closure...in fact, if you hold back too much air with the diaphragm you're likely to reduce glottal closure since you're decreasing the subglottal pressure. Which will just encourage you to squeeze harder at the larynx to regain that lost closure, making the whole process harder since now there is loads of effort both at the larynx and in the breathing system.

Don't be afraid to blow a good bit of air beneath the folds, but only as much as your folds have the strength to resist. If you are cracking, back off the exhalation force and try again. But at the same time you don't want to totally hold your breath. That will get you nowhere. The vocal feeds need a good air supply in order to vibrate.

It's all about balance. But just, please, understand that support is not what creates cord closure. Only strengthening laryngeal coordination can do that, and then the support will just help you meter the right amount of air to apply to that approximated glottis to ensure it vibrates to the fullest but not so much that the air pressure causes the muscles to be overwhelmed by the force, give up and crack.

If you are familiar with the Bernoulli Effect, it's a lot like that. If you try to hold back the breath too much with the support muscles it's going to be way harder to achieve closure on top of that, it will take lots of muscular force. Whereas if you exhale the right air velocity, it will feel like that pressure underneath the folds creates a vaccuum effect above to help to seal off the closure. I don't think that's what actually happens but it is the sensation.

Something Rob Lunte told me recently in an email: "The phonation package needs "x" amount energy for the pin wheel to even move" This is so true. "light and right" or "holding your breath while singing" will never get you to that point.

Practicing cord closure doesn't require any real fancy kind of support method. In order to achieve good cord closure in the head voice all the breathing has to do is maintain an appropriate and steady subglottal pressure. You can do that with a very natural effortless exhale, and just meter its speed mentally, don't worry about the musculature, it will do it by itself if you just focus on keeping the air pressure below the folds constant.

[Adolph Namlik]

If any of you guys are around and are having problems hit me up on skype I'll help ya out. If you have been struggling with something and don't understand why or its on going i wanna help no charge just hit me up..

daniel

Daniel,

That's awesome and VERY KIND of you !!! :cool:

Thank you for your dedication to TMV and it's membership !!!!!

Respectfully,

Adolph

[Danielformica]

I'm just doing what I would have liked when I was studying.. I try to help at least one person a week for free (it's always more).its important to pay it forward like Rob does with the free lessons when you get the program.

Money will come and go but you are stuck with who you are..

[D.Starr]

Thanks for the responses guys I'm starting to work on that dopey sensation for awhile to loosen up and lighten up a little better.

Must admit I'm finding it hard to dampen my larynx without forcing it down a lot. It's naturally under my chin haha.

Can anyone is layman's terms explain early bridging please? Watched a video of Rob saying that early bridging is for light mass singing and going for the sound of Bruno Mars.

I want to work on this first then work on bringing the muscle back in.

[MDEW]

Bruno seems to have a light sound. You can hear the cry in his voice. Similer to Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder. The lift up and Pull back of Roberts should work well with Bruno songs.

I am a 50 year old hillbilly and I have been banging my head against the wall trying to sing the songs of Southern Rock and hitting a brick wall at G4. I am a light singer, not a lot of volume. On a whim I decided to sing a couple of Bruno songs that I like. Go figure, No wall at G4. As long as I do not try the Ultra high falsetto oo's that appear in his songs I am fine. Maybe you are singing the lower parts with too much weight and volume.

Just a thought.

[D.Starr]

Yeah I think I bring up too much weight.

Getting myself into a habit of singing with my hands flat infront of my ears to reflect the sound a little more. The sound is amazing, it rings and my voice just feels weightless and I transition and sing higher notes with much more ease. The problem is whenever I sing without my hands my voice just doesn't buzz or have a ring and the weight just reappears. Obviously I understand it's because of acoustics, but I'm also starting to instinctively place my hands infront of my ears in order to sing.

I'm trying to work more with a dopey cry as well, it just suits R&B much more. It's just getting rid of the quack and squeeze.

Currently only earning £200 a month so lessons are a no no. I just don't have the ability to spend it. Crap I know.

Here's me just messing around with some stuff, apologies for it being long,

https://www.box.com/s/npn4zm2ovzx5th0xgry2

[Nicogratouille]

https://www.box.com/s/npn4zm2ovzx5th0xgry2

I think it sounds good D.Starr! Btw, how come your voice is so deep when you speak yet so light when you sing?

Nick

[Owen Korzec]

Yeah I think I bring up too much weight.

Getting myself into a habit of singing with my hands flat infront of my ears to reflect the sound a little more. The sound is amazing, it rings and my voice just feels weightless and I transition and sing higher notes with much more ease. The problem is whenever I sing without my hands my voice just doesn't buzz or have a ring and the weight just reappears. Obviously I understand it's because of acoustics, but I'm also starting to instinctively place my hands infront of my ears in order to sing.

I'm trying to work more with a dopey cry as well, it just suits R&B much more. It's just getting rid of the quack and squeeze.

Currently only earning £200 a month so lessons are a no no. I just don't have the ability to spend it. Crap I know.

Here's me just messing around with some stuff, apologies for it being long,

https://www.box.com/s/npn4zm2ovzx5th0xgry2

1:23-1:44 ish you're reducing the quack pretty nice. Then it came back. Seems to kick in around F4ish?

I'm hearing a tendency for your voice to gravitate toward a closed "ee" vowel...try working on a dark dopey uh/oh/oo shade for a while in your vocalizing.

Try singing all your songs like yogi bear, or patrick star...comically dopey...just do it. Not to mention, now is probably a good time for you to incorporate more vocalization in your routine vs. singing as you have to build this low larynx coordination, you are tweaking your instrument. Song work is better for learning how to use it the way it's already working.

Don't be afraid to open the glottis and dramatically decrease the weight for now if that's what it takes to lower your larynx.

Do whatever you can to practice with a low larynx, for about a week.

Stop agonizing over what you are currently doing, posting files of your current voice, and just go ahead and do the work to change it. Then send us over a file once you've made progress. But right now you are enabling the quacking to go on by not immediately making the effort to drop everything and make a serious effort to practice dopier phonations, for one week.

I want you to win here. I don't want you to give up on yourself like you've considered many times. You're going to make some breakthroughs if you simply change what are doing. Get out of the rut...leave the old habits behind completely for a week and find something new, then only after the new approach is working well, work on a balance between the two extremes.

Good luck D, you can do this!

[D.Starr]

https://www.box.com/s/npn4zm2ovzx5th0xgry2

I think it sounds good D.Starr! Btw, how come your voice is so deep when you speak yet so light when you sing?

Nick

Thanks, I have no idea haha. People are always amazed at how light my voice goes when I sing must come from years of listening to MJ and light voiced imitation.

1:23-1:44 ish you're reducing the quack pretty nice. Then it came back. Seems to kick in around F4ish?

I'm hearing a tendency for your voice to gravitate toward a closed "ee" vowel...try working on a dark dopey uh/oh/oo shade for a while in your vocalizing.

Try singing all your songs like yogi bear, or patrick star...comically dopey...just do it. Not to mention, now is probably a good time for you to incorporate more vocalization in your routine vs. singing as you have to build this low larynx coordination, you are tweaking your instrument. Song work is better for learning how to use it the way it's already working.

Don't be afraid to open the glottis and dramatically decrease the weight for now if that's what it takes to lower your larynx.

Do whatever you can to practice with a low larynx, for about a week.

Stop agonizing over what you are currently doing, posting files of your current voice, and just go ahead and do the work to change it. Then send us over a file once you've made progress. But right now you are enabling the quacking to go on by not immediately making the effort to drop everything and make a serious effort to practice dopier phonations, for one week.

I want you to win here. I don't want you to give up on yourself like you've considered many times. You're going to make some breakthroughs if you simply change what are doing. Get out of the rut...leave the old habits behind completely for a week and find something new, then only after the new approach is working well, work on a balance between the two extremes.

Good luck D, you can do this!

Yeah it does seem to pop in around F4.

Yeah I ring tremendously on the "ee" vowel I guess that's why I do that. Plus I use a high tongue a lot, hard to get the guy down.

I have been trying that dopey sound whilst singing and just some basic scales, it's little easier to bridge but it becomes airy in between a cracks some times. It's hard to hear and accept in that way as well being all dopey and woofy but I accept I'm tweaking and vocalising and not singing.

Opening the glottis, does this imply just simply yawning/dampening the larynx to open up space? I'm going to have to try my hardest to resist those neck muscles pulling it back up.

[MDEW]

Have you been reading the other threads too? There was just a post about letting the glottis open(let some air through) a little around passaggio.

If you are too twangy this can help to readjust twang vs air flow. (read other thread. it makes more sense)