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let's see if i can explain this decently.....

if a singer were to make a daily practise of simply directing the pressurized air into the various resonance cavities while simultaneously stretching the palates (hard and soft) and the pharyngeal walls, the nasal area behind the nose, all the areas where resonance is found using various larynx heights in various combinations so let's call it "working out the honk and the hoot resonance" stretching and trying to manipulate the resonance areas with the facial muscles and such......

would this/could this result in an enhanced tone? can one physically tone the resonating cavities?

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that sounded like japanese:P just sing and if one vowel modifies to a better place for you and sounds good do it. thats your air to cavities and walls and all that stuff you sing with vowels and you move them to where they feel good and sound good.

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Not a teacher but if you just started your post here then I'd agree:

all the areas where resonance is found using various larynx heights in various combinations so let's call it "working out the honk and the hoot resonance" stretching and trying to manipulate the resonance areas with the facial muscles and such......

would this/could this result in an enhanced tone? can one physically tone the resonating cavities?

The stuff before that is so off the mark scientifically I wouldn't even recommend visualizing some elements of it. One is attempting to stretch the hard palate is just attempting the impossible it wouldn't do anything and just be one more thing to worry about except you can't even control it...

I'm also not a fan of frisells encouragement of nasality as part of the resonance...the literal nasal cavity generally needs to be closed on vowels by lifting the soft palate if you want beautiful tone. Thinking you have to lower the soft palate and open that up is another counterproductive visualization IMO.

Also idk about toning the resonance cavities. Resonance manipulation is maybe 90% coordination and 10% strength in my experience. It's mostly about shaping them. There is not much strength to be built.

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I'm also not a fan of frisells encouragement of nasality as part of the resonance...the literal nasal cavity generally needs to be closed on vowels by lifting the soft palate if you want beautiful tone. Thinking you have to lower the soft palate and open that up is another counterproductive visualization IMO.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. People like Stevie Wonder very often sing with a lowered palate and a lot of people consider his voice to be beautiful.

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The resonance coordination improves, in the same way you can get better at whistling, more precision and more agility gets better results. The idea of sending the breath is one of the many ways to "wake up" certain coordination. Usually its refined into other reference that can be more readily manipulated (focus).

However hard palate stretch got me to wonder what you are doing :P. You would need an orthodontist to do that.

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Bob - I think yes (except for moving the hard pallet). I think this is what is happening when you experiment to get better resonance. The trick is to be able to form those cavities to tune in the optimum resonance without accidentally invoking some of the constrictors or other muscles in a less desirous way. That is, practicing muscle independence.

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I am not a teacher :P I think it is more on the lines of "Waking up" a coordination as Felipe said. Or at least getting your body used to other coordinations or resonance spaces or other sounds that you didn't realize were important.

You see and hear a lot of people saying that the facial muscles have nothing to do with singing but then you also hear people saying to use a smile coordination for shifting formants and such, lift your cheeks, drop your jaw, Elvis lifts one side of the lips, Dion Warwick lifts both and flares nostrils when singing higher.

It seems to be part of manipulating resonance spaces but it is individual. And it may have nothing to do with the projected sound. It may just be something they did when they first heard that sound color and now it is a mental anchor for when they want to reproduce it.

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mdew some facial muscles trigger actions like bringing up the larynx or lifting the soft palate. Its very common to use it.

Another reason why I question things. Before the internet and looking through books in libraries for singing help I would read that the first thing to do was divorce facial muscle from sound production because everything happened in the larynx. Keep a dopey relaxed expression. I didn't really believe this but they were the experts.

And that is why in my post I wrote

" I think it is more on the lines of "Waking up" a coordination as Felipe said. Or at least getting your body used to other coordinations or resonance spaces or other sounds that you didn't realize were important."

Just think of the "coordinations and sounds" that I need and needed to "Wake up". The only Resonance chamber I used was the mouth and twang was something to steer clear of because of the piercing sound.

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thanks folks....i wish i could explain this better......

i know it sounds a bit over the top

it all started after a lot of months doing the head voice descending slides, a very profound resonance started coming through....let's call it a top down heady resonance...no chest voice musculature in this at all.

maybe we can call it the extremes of honk and hoot?

basically i'm gaining resonance, but not just by aiming the tone in the pocket and all of that, but just by smacking the air pressure into different cavities.......playfully just exploring and putting air into different areas....

no rhyme or reason just playing with resonance for it's own sake.

so i'm thinking to myself, can just this act alone cause these areas to tone, or enlarge, or develop further?

can you improve your resonance cavities acoustic potential from just this practice of shooting air pressure inside them?

it sure seems like it to me.

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Exploration. I know what you mean. I try to mimic people, cartoon charators, actors. I have a certain way that I produce the sound of Fat Albert(The cartoon, Bill cosby). Very deep sound but a lot of resonance in the sound. I tried using it for singing for a day. It seemed like after that even my normal speaking voice seemed more resonant. I didn't stick with it so that resonance went away.

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yes, it's almost like you work out the cavities. when you go to sing after doing this you can hear a major difference.

that's what those frisell slides did.....they make you so free and open and thick that you really start to get a feel of just how profound resonance can be...

it's like the head voice sort of overlays your voice.

brother ron, do you have the same feelings?

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basically i'm gaining resonance, but not just by aiming the tone in the pocket and all of that, but just by smacking the air pressure into different cavities.......playfully just exploring and putting air into different areas....

no rhyme or reason just playing with resonance for it's own sake.

so i'm thinking to myself, can just this act alone cause these areas to tone, or enlarge, or develop further?

can you improve your resonance cavities acoustic potential from just this practice of shooting air pressure inside them?

it sure seems like it to me.

Every single, blessed day, especially with "funny voices." I am not a teacher and you asked for teachers. I think Felipe is the only one representing himself as a teacher.

Anyway, does it cause a toning of the vocal tract, which I think was part of your question? I think so but I don't have enough desire to be invested in defending the statement. I think it's in the eye of the beholder. If thinking that it tones, whether it does or not, leads to better singing, why not? It's as good as any other mental model we can think of.

side note, I was singing along with "Double Vision" today and thought of you, Bob. I am ruined. Now, whenever I hear a Foreigner song, I think of my twin brother from another mother from the Big Apple.

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Bob, you are really just practicing formant tuning in your own way. I don't think any muscular toning is involved. It's all coordination.

When a resonance is tuned right, it creates inertive reactance which is a very funky sensations that may make you feel like things are happening that aren't. Almost like there is a magic man in your pharynx playing with an eq box and he just found the exact frequency of harmonic 3 on your C5 and he's boosting it.

But it's all in how you shape the vocal tract. Something we do every day when we speak. We just don't shape it with the level of intention and attention to detail required for beautiful singing. Formant tuning has a lot to do with being able to precise control the shape of the vocal tract and establishing a brain/ear/voice connection between that. It's a lot like whistling.

I'm a firm believer that if everybody detached their mind from the familiar sounds of the vowels of their language, and instead were taught how to hear the SOUND of the formants and harmonics, along with the simple maneuvers that enable them to control them (e.g. mouth shape, tongue position), they could learn how to tune formants in a scarily short amount of time. The only part that takes a long time is learning how to tune them consistently because that requires muscle memory. But tuning them to the harmonics in the first place, I swear, it is the simplest thing ever. If you can whistle, you can do it and if you are a great whistler who can really carry the resonance along with the pitch, you would pick up formant tuning very intuitively too.

To think that a singer needs to strengthen anything in the vocal tract, besides maybe the soft palate, in order to achieve excellent resonance, seems absurd to me...just my humble opinion. Like I said, the only hard part is doing this on command with precision every single time. It's the art of tuning formants precisely that is the tough part, and requires a great ear and accompanying muscle memory of the vocal tract to be built. Bob, maybe that muscle memory development is what you've experienced.

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Bob, "ruined" is when the song is forever changed from what one thought, previously. That is, every time I hear a Foreigner song, I hear your voice, on the phone.

For example, a dancer I knew about would dance to "Bad Moon Rising" by CCR. From her perspective, the restrooms were on her right. So, she would think the lyrics, "there's a bathroom on the right." And now the song is "ruined."

One time, you or someone else linked in some guy doing covers of songs and they were problematic, yet entertaining. He did the "Immigrant Song." And I swear, he said the lyrics "Vanilla, I am coming." The song is ruined for me. I will always think of that when I hear the song.

In your case, ruination is not a bad thing. It's just that I cannot escape thinking of you when I hear a Foreigner song, when before I came to this forum, I just thought of the song. Especially a SNL skit based on "Cold as Ice."

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Bob, "ruined" is when the song is forever changed from what one thought, previously. That is, every time I hear a Foreigner song, I hear your voice, on the phone.

For example, a dancer I knew about would dance to "Bad Moon Rising" by CCR. From her perspective, the restrooms were on her right. So, she would think the lyrics, "there's a bathroom on the right." And now the song is "ruined."

One time, you or someone else linked in some guy doing covers of songs and they were problematic, yet entertaining. He did the "Immigrant Song." And I swear, he said the lyrics "Vanilla, I am coming." The song is ruined for me. I will always think of that when I hear the song.

In your case, ruination is not a bad thing. It's just that I cannot escape thinking of you when I hear a Foreigner song, when before I came to this forum, I just thought of the song. Especially a SNL skit based on "Cold as Ice."

Oh my. Vanilla I am coming. Hah. :lol:

Relevant, if anyone wants me to email them a personal recording I have of just about the worst singer ever, (also quite entertaining/hilarious) let me know, I have it. Perfect example of what "mixed voice" should NOT sound like, and also a perfect example of trying to show off your range doing more harm than good.

I have yet to have a song completely ruined. Maybe once. I participated in a remix contest for a song I liked a lot, and through the encouragement of my friend and in an attempt to totally win I decided to try to make the remix way better than the original. I didn't win. Now if I listen to the remix I think about how I lost and if I listen to the original I think about how the remix ruined my enjoyment of it...

I hesitate to cover my favorite songs now. I'm afraid I'll ruin them like that.

Another time a suicidal youtube comment almost ruined a song for me but I was eventually able to put it out of my mind.

Ron, I swear you are the king of starting tangents in threads here...

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Yes, I am good for tangents. Althought, it is a a cosine in hyperbolic trigonometry that helped me understand that mathematical importance of 1.732 in 3-phase power calcs, although a co-worker from the Ukraine showed me Pythagora's Theorem solution and that also made sense, with slightly less math, as 1.732 is also the square root of three.

I = power (watts or va)/(3^.5(E)) = Current=VA/(1.732*voltage)

So, for example, current = 75,000 va/ (1.732*480V) = 75kVA/831 = 90.something amps. So, line side of the transformer needs #4 thhn wire in a 1 inch raceway and flex, on a 90 amp breaker.

Now, how is that for a tangent?

:lol:

Anyway, I will send you an email begging for the worst cover ever.

Though, I think I found one labeled as the worst cover of "Wish You Were Here." And it was.

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Yes, I am good for tangents. Althought, it is a a cosine in hyperbolic trigonometry that helped me understand that mathematical importance of 1.732 in 3-phase power calcs, although a co-worker from the Ukraine showed me Pythagora's Theorem solution and that also made sense, with slightly less math, as 1.732 is also the square root of three.

I = power (watts or va)/(3^.5(E)) = Current=VA/(1.732*voltage)

So, for example, current = 75,000 va/ (1.732*480V) = 75kVA/831 = 90.something amps. So, line side of the transformer needs #4 thhn wire in a 1 inch raceway and flex, on a 90 amp breaker.

Now, how is that for a tangent?

:lol:

Anyway, I will send you an email begging for the worst cover ever.

Though, I think I found one labeled as the worst cover of "Wish You Were Here." And it was.

It was not a cover. It was a singer auditioning for my old band (I was not a singer at the time). But that does not detract from the humor of the sounds this dude's voice produced.

Your post is more frightening because we know from you frequently mentioning your career path that all of that math and electroterminology is real. Yikes.

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Bob, you are really just practicing formant tuning in your own way. I don't think any muscular toning is involved. It's all coordination.

When a resonance is tuned right, it creates inertive reactance which is a very funky sensations that may make you feel like things are happening that aren't. Almost like there is a magic man in your pharynx playing with an eq box and he just found the exact frequency of harmonic 3 on your C5 and he's boosting it.

But it's all in how you shape the vocal tract. Something we do every day when we speak. We just don't shape it with the level of intention and attention to detail required for beautiful singing. Formant tuning has a lot to do with being able to precise control the shape of the vocal tract and establishing a brain/ear/voice connection between that. It's a lot like whistling.

I'm a firm believer that if everybody detached their mind from the familiar sounds of the vowels of their language, and instead were taught how to hear the SOUND of the formants and harmonics, along with the simple maneuvers that enable them to control them (e.g. mouth shape, tongue position), they could learn how to tune formants in a scarily short amount of time. The only part that takes a long time is learning how to tune them consistently because that requires muscle memory. But tuning them to the harmonics in the first place, I swear, it is the simplest thing ever. If you can whistle, you can do it and if you are a great whistler who can really carry the resonance along with the pitch, you would pick up formant tuning very intuitively too.

To think that a singer needs to strengthen anything in the vocal tract, besides maybe the soft palate, in order to achieve excellent resonance, seems absurd to me...just my humble opinion. Like I said, the only hard part is doing this on command with precision every single time. It's the art of tuning formants precisely that is the tough part, and requires a great ear and accompanying muscle memory of the vocal tract to be built. Bob, maybe that muscle memory development is what you've experienced.

owen, i hear what you're saying but this is not about format tuning....

i was just wondering if, for example, we did a variety of honky sounds on all different pitches really loudly let's say 200-300 a day, every day for a few weeks or months would the resonating cavities become even more resonant?

can they be toned or sonically enhanced by punching breath tension into them on purpose? sounds crazy, but i just wonder....

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owen, i hear what you're saying but this is not about format tuning....

i was just wondering if, for example, we did a variety of honky sounds on all different pitches really loudly let's say 200-300 a day, every day for a few weeks or months would the resonating cavities become even more resonant?

can they be toned or sonically enhanced by punching breath tension into them on purpose? sounds crazy, but i just wonder....

IMO, no. If you heard any improvement from practicing that it would just be from having developed better coordination and muscle memory at formant tuning. It would have nothing to do with toning the physique of the pharynx...

Here's an analogy for you. If you blow various pitches into a trumpet every day, does it shape or "tone" the brass of the instrument to become more resonant? Of course not, lol!

The most there could possibly be, MAYBE, is a break in period. But after that, it's all about how you are playing the instrument and nothing to do with improving the quality of the instrument itself.

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Bob, you may be fine tuning musculature to direct the sound in a better pathway to the resonators. Adjusting breath pressure, tongue position, phaynx shape, softpalate position........

Like blowing into a bottle to make sound. When you first try it you may get no sound at all. but after a while you may be able to pick up any bottle and make sounds by blowing into it. Even though the bottle size may change you can get a good quality sound without thinking about lip adjustment per size of bottle it seems to self adjust.

Also add that resonating chambers in the human body are made of growing and adapting tissue. It is still possible that our bodies can adapt over time to external stimulus.

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