who has any gains to report?

[eggplantbren]

This is where TVS head voice w/ overlay distortion comes in handy. :cool:

Call it "cheating" or whatever you will, but you get all those high parts with plenty of power, a more acceptable volume in fact, at about a fourth of the effort and fatigue. How is that not a huge win?

Nice. Yeah I had a similar thought. There seems to be an illusion that that note is more powerful than it really is, because of the effect on top. I suck at effects though (for now)...

[Owen Korzec]

I feel ya egg, I find that for me, effects are not only individual but also hard to bring about just by controlling muscular movements alone, you also need the right mindset. For me I can really only get them by thinking the sound...and then it happens. If I try to contract xyz muscles in a specific manner, it doesn't work. This auditory approach I take instead has its disadvantages as I can't be certain what I am doing is healthy, but luckily, none of it feels unhealthy. And "if it feels good, it is good." :cool:

[eggplantbren]

I feel ya egg, I find that for me, effects are not only individual but also hard to bring about just by controlling muscular movements alone, you also need the right mindset. For me I can really only get them by thinking the sound...and then it happens. If I try to contract xyz muscles in a specific manner, it doesn't work. This auditory approach I take instead has its disadvantages as I can't be certain what I am doing is healthy, but luckily, none of it feels unhealthy. And "if it feels good, it is good." :cool:

I think that's true of me too. I don't have a very good sense of my body and my muscles etc, but if I copy a sound I can usually get a good first approximation going, especially if I follow other advice relating to the sound. I think I can roughly "find" distortion, rattle, grunt and growl now, but they're not 100% comfortable so I don't try it very much.

[Manolito Mystiq]

is the beautiful one karyn o'connor?

does dave brooks have you crying with your voice?

owen, ........if you are going to up to ab4 in full voice, you are very likely going into a chesty head voice...you learning to shift resonance...

congrats!!!

No, it’s a fellow former conservatory student here in the Netherlands: Florien Hilgenkamp.

And yes, Dave Brooks has me crying with my voice: HERE. The cool thing is that he sang the song after me, and it sounded amazing—more soul, R&B. He mentioned on my very first lesson that my form is pretty good; and that I’m a quick learner. There are moments I tend to raise the larynx (really a nono for both SLS and SS, unlike EVT and CVT of course). Centralize or lower the larynx, he kept mentioning (as does Brett Manning and Seth Riggs as you will know). I managed to do just that, but sometimes my projection was closed off. So, I’m working on that.

I still don’t really appreciate my sound. I sound too young, too light. I might just accept that it's who I am.

[VideoHere]

manolito, how long have you been training? it takes time....l

[Manolito Mystiq]

Since 2001 or so.

[ronws]

Since 2001 or so.

I've been singing and playing guitar since 1974, full voice in the upper range since 1988, and I still learn something new about my voice, every day.

You are doing fine, Manny. Keep on rocking.

[VideoHere]

one thing i know for sure..........if you work at this really hard and consistently....you will get better, and better, and better....

[VideoHere]

one thing i know for sure..........if you work at this really hard and consistently....you will get better, and better, and better....

even if you don't do things 100 perfect every time during your exercises, just working out the voice yields huge rewards.

[Manolito Mystiq]

I know that I have improved. Hell, I have recordings of my singing from back in 2005. There are things that have definitely improved, most notably that I am now singing, and not hitting notes on pitch with long vowels.

[Owen Korzec]

Today I figured out how to sing this tricky light mass chorus in one of my songs pretty close to the way I want it to sound.

I repeated it about 100 times (seriously) to work in the muscle memory and fine tune it a little more and have taken mental note of how I warmed up to get into that configuration.

A little word of advice relevant to this thread: When you have a good vocal moment when you're practicing, you gotta do everything you can to protect it, preserve it, capture it, nourish it, nurture it, absorb it deep into the mind and body. That often involves repetition of successes. Not just try until you succeed. Try until you succeed, then keep succeeding so you remember how to succeed. I wish I knew that was such an important part of practice when I was younger. I used to just be satisfied with doing something right once or twice, then moving on. But that's not how muscle memory works. You need to keep the success ratio high.

[eggplantbren]

Cool tip.

[ronws]

A little word of advice relevant to this thread: When you have a good vocal moment when you're practicing, you gotta do everything you can to protect it, preserve it, capture it, nourish it, nurture it, absorb it deep into the mind and body. That often involves repetition of successes. Not just try until you succeed. Try until you succeed, then keep succeeding so you remember how to succeed. I wish I knew that was such an important part of practice when I was younger. I used to just be satisfied with doing something right once or twice, then moving on. But that's not how muscle memory works. You need to keep the success ratio high.

A good point that I like to simplify to this:

"What you were doing there, do that some more."

Because you know how you were feeling, which will not always easily be described by written words in a post.

[MDEW]

I had a breakthrough once... I was driving down the road listening to the radio. A song started playing that tops right at my breaking point G4. I could sing the song but it always sounded and felt pressed. I decided I would try to sing it with a deeper sound but lighter feel(Hard to describe). The top note came with no stress no squeeze just as natural as my speaking voice. I thought that was pretty cool. I tried to remember the feeling.

The next song came on. It topped a little higher. I tried the same thing. Success!!!

Song after song. I was singing even the higher harmonies without stress or undo effort.

THEN, my cell phone rang. After that I couldn't get the feeling back. :/

Moral of the story....Don't answer your cell phone when you are driving. :|

[ronws]

Moral of the story....Don't answer your cell phone when you are driving. :|

Problem for me is that I have 2 phones. My personal phone and a company cell phone. And it is usually the company phone that is ringing and it IS my job to answer that phone. So, when I did those H1 recordings in the car, that was fortunately between calls. Except for one, where my personal phone was ringing. It was my wife. The ringtone for her number is "I Believe in an Thing called Love" by the Darkness. And that trumps all else.

[MDEW]

Problem for me is that I have 2 phones. My personal phone and a company cell phone. And it is usually the company phone that is ringing and it IS my job to answer that phone. So, when I did those H1 recordings in the car, that was fortunately between calls. Except for one, where my personal phone was ringing. It was my wife. The ringtone for her number is "I Believe in an Thing called Love" by the Darkness. And that trumps all else.

Off topic but the ringtone for my wife is "Bad to the Bone". Nuff Said.

[Owen Korzec]

AND tackled another super difficult part from my upcoming original music. This other tune features some vocal gymnastics at the end, a bunch of bulky head voice topping out at high C, a quick distorted D5, and even a siren up to a another distorted D5. Which I previously considered taking out cause it's so damn hard to do consistently. But maybe if I can keep doing it like I did today? I swear I just thought, okay start the D4 in a light chest voice and go up with the same volume and timbre...maybe support a little...and poof, no break.

I don't know how the hell this is happening today but everything's starting to sound much better. Man I am having a great vocal day. I think it's largely mental. My voice sounds the same as always but I'm manipulating it easier...I don't know what it is. Positive energy I guess. Sometimes we are too harsh on ourselves. Today I felt a sense of letting go, not physically but mentally, hard to describe. Not over-judging myself. I feel a greater peace and simplicity of thought. More confidence.

And here I am storing information about my great vocal day on this forum for future reference...this is what you do folks. I don't believe there is nothing you can learn from a one-off great vocal day and it's just luck. There is a reason it was a great day as vocal students we should all study our behavior on those days.

Themixtape really had a great idea with his video logs of his vocal progress. That's too involved for my personal taste, I couldn't maintain that kind of system, but if you can put the time into it, it really doesn't get much better than that. Always do your best to save what you can from the great vocal days to teach yourself how to get the most out of your voice later...just 2 cents from an intermediate student...

[ronws]

I think it's largely mental.

Something about that statement rings a bell.

Hmmm ......

[jco5055]

Made quite the gain today imo.

So I had been working with Ken Tamplin's stuff, aka "pull" chest as high as possible. I had already "unlocked" my mix voice (and I know mix voice is quite the topic of discussion, but here think of just a blending of the two, or like singing in head but with the support/effort of singing in chest if that makes any sense ) but when singing in this heavier style, I was just losing my highest (like from F5 to B5) notes completely. Just blowing hot air.

So after listening to Ken on one of the practice CDs say "Make sure you stretch chest/mix up to A4, eventually you can bring it all the way up to E5) it clicked with me. I've always had a loud voice, where belting is quite natural to me (more natural than most I'd say), and I realized that I had managed to build up my chest/mix voice up to the top level so to speak while my head voice suffered. So even though the program is more about building chest first, instead of maybe ideally being at around 60-40% ratio of strength of chest and head voice respectively, with my current "place" in the program, I was at around 80-20% or even 90-10%.

So once I did a little more balancing (I thought "bridge earlier" even though it's not as black and white as that) all of a sudden it all opened up. I sung some Foreigner then and it was much easier/less constricting than usual. I actually like to think in more of the M1-M2-M3 way a la Pillars here, as I think it makes more sense. I'm just holding on to m1 a bit more/longer, instead of using it exclusively. I'm sure there's talk of CT/TA etc to be made also, but I'll let this forum do that if they want, as they seem to be fans of that

On a more general progress note, I've definitely started to notice more of a one voice sensation, where if one of my brothers (who likes music and can talk voice stuff, although he doesn't train) asks me if I just sung that in head or chest, I'm not always sure. The better I get, the more I really start to see that there really is not a huge difference in various vocal schools/programs etc, other than terminology basically (I'm referring to the ones that have to meet a certain high standard, but I'm sure most of us know training methods that do). In fact, being familiar/having used both Ken's and Robert's programs, I often alternate practicing them and find that certain stuff I learn in one opens up a roadblock I've hit in another's. For example, Ken talks about "Pillars" aka not staying heavy as you ascend, but dropping the weight. I often just think of being in a "top down phonation" instead, as I visualize the correct thing this way easier.

Sure, if two complete novices to singing were to each pick a top training method, and after a month compare their voices, there will be one that has more power, while another one can bridge better and has a better head voice etc, but once you get to a certain level you can pretty much do anything.

[ronws]

So after listening to Ken on one of the practice CDs say "Make sure you stretch chest/mix up to A4, eventually you can bring it all the way up to E5) it clicked with me. I've always had a loud voice, where belting is quite natural to me (more natural than most I'd say), and I realized that I had managed to build up my chest/mix voice up to the top level

Actually, this kind of makes sense to me. I was singing along with "Hotel California and I sounded off pitch next to Don Henley's light, dusty voice. Next song was "Rocket Man" by Elton John and I was right in the pocket. Sometimes, your voice is just loud and ringy. Which leads back to material selection. As much as we might like singing any song that comes along, our voices are suited to some songs or styles of singing more than other songs or styles of singing.

Respect the voice.

[jco5055]

I hear ya brother. The more I get to "know my voice," the more I unconsciously gravitate towards singers that are similar. For example, when most people would ask me who my favorite singer is, I would have trouble deciding between Steve Perry and Geoff Tate. Two guys known for their pretty much head-voice exclusive/lighter singing (and it is a coincidence that Pillars was the first thing I got when I started getting serious about vocals). But the more I train and get better, not to mention kind of coming in to my own voice, I've started really liking and admiring guys like Lou Gramm, Dio, and Jeff Scott Soto who are a bit more belty and similar to myself.

[ElWin]

jco5055 - where are you up to progress wise with the Ken stuff? I'm still on the very first part and struggling to find the time it needs but I think I am getting something from it.

I need to really understand more about the timing of bridging. I think I have a fully connected passagio if that is the right phrase but I don't put a lot of thought into where I bridge. I'm working on a cover of Starlight by Slash and Myles Kennedy which does something like c4 down to g3 in the verse then c4 up to e5 pretty quickly in the chorus. It feels like the verse is in the bridge range and the chorus is all head but from what you are saying, if I keep following the course I should be using chest/mix up to e5?

[ronws]

True, jco. Something we must certainly consider. I may admire this or that artist, this or that type of music. And what do I sound best on? That is what I should do. And it's not being lazy, it's about making good art.

Another thought I had was, sometimes you may hear a singer and you think they are pulling back and going soft and using amplification to be heard when it could be the other way around.They could be belting and adjustments are made to lessen the impact. And what this means is giving yourself permission to do the song your way.

Yesterday, at work, my boss' ipod station was playing and it was "Turn the Page" as covered by Metallica. And we both agreed it was as fine a performance as the original, by Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band, even though it sounds different vocally and arrangement-wise.

I guarantee you, James Hetfield is not going to spend even half of a second trying to sound like Bob. He's going to do it like James and if people don't like that, I am sure he has a few choices words and an invitation for them.

And he does warm-ups and warm-downs, got himself some legit lessons, after a while.

Anyway, so, be like James. Do it your way, be on pitch, sing what the song means to you. And pay not as much attention to the nay-sayers and those that would instruct you to sound just like the original.

Let me bask in some pride for a moment - that was the nicest way I could say that and I am really proud that I did not use profanity.

:cool:

[jco5055]

jco5055 - where are you up to progress wise with the Ken stuff? I'm still on the very first part and struggling to find the time it needs but I think I am getting something from it.

I need to really understand more about the timing of bridging. I think I have a fully connected passagio if that is the right phrase but I don't put a lot of thought into where I bridge. I'm working on a cover of Starlight by Slash and Myles Kennedy which does something like c4 down to g3 in the verse then c4 up to e5 pretty quickly in the chorus. It feels like the verse is in the bridge range and the chorus is all head but from what you are saying, if I keep following the course I should be using chest/mix up to e5?

Well first off I initially learned how to bridge using Pillars, so when I started doing Ken's stuff, I had to work hard on not bridging.

I'm currently on the second volume. Using Ken's guidelines, I could most likely start the third volume, but I find his recommendations a bit too easy, so I like to stick to a volume until I feel I've mastered it, and then work on it for about another week to engrain the habits.

ElWin, if you watch/listen to what Ken says (and this includes the forums), KTVA mix voice is kind of like a blending of chest and head. An easy way for me to find it is by starting with a lower head tone (and here I'm talking like C5 or B4 is a good one). Sing that in "pure" head voice (so like falsetto sensation except non-breathy and with some amplification/power), then try to think of kind of blending chest in. For me I can tell cuz I really have to support to do this.

So Ken says eventually you can sing in this mix until around E5 (at least for him, probably higher if you are some kind of tenor) before having to revert to "pure" head voice. Looking at the forums and such, most agree that on your first day of vol 3 you will most likely have to worry about the speedbump around A4 or so. The forums also mention how vol 3 is the true "tough workout" that will really take your singing to the next level. The first two are kind of like just getting the KTVA basics down.

So, using the "bridge late as early as possible" I was able to "grow" my chest voice (and in my opinion I group mix into there also, as I never thought about it and people were telling me on stuff I posted on the forums like "Great transitions into your mix/head, I didn't hear the speed bump" even though I never really felt any sense of switching to head or the speed bump coming), which I'm saying any singing where you are really working your support the higher you go (I'm assuming we can agree that a head voice C5 and a chest voice C5 are world's apart in effort), up to like an E5 or so. It was loud, had a strange belt like and chest quality, and needed a ton of support. However, like I mentioned earlier, my range literally stopped where this chest like stuff topped out at. Couldn't even sing in higher falsetto from here. So I couldn't even sing the entirety of exercises that feature the "who" transition. I always found this weird, because if I just try to sing the highest non-whistle note I can, even sitting here at my computer with no warmup, I can always consistently sing a Bflat5 or B5.

So considering on the vol 2 audio workout Ken would interject with "make sure there's no speedbump" at like A4 or C5 or so, I consciously had to turn down the intensity a bit and bridge here. Using this, I can sing the entire range of all exercises, and I even get a better feeling of "one voice" and such. Also, i thought I was singing kind of quiet to avoid the speed bump, but taking off my head phones and listening I'd say I'm like forte (f.) in terms of loudness, maybe mf. This is assuming fff is the loudest though.

So yeah, now I assume that when I go to vol 3 I will grow my voice in a much more uniform way, and be at a point where I can transition from around E5 and have more notes there instead of just blowing hot air.

Other than that, the EE vowel still gives me some trouble, and the chest stretching exercises on Vol 2 are a little harder (before it was basically a joke for me). So yeah good luck, and if you have any more questions message me. I don't know about typing this much out in a sort of unrelated thread

EDIT: in the Myles Kennedy cover, he may very well be bridging that early (which would be REALLY early if you mean C4 and not C5), but if you would want to sing the song "KTVA method-approved" I'd say wait until A4 or so to go to head.

Also, I find Ken's ways the easiest to find time with as it is a very straight forward "Push play on the cd, when the cd is over you're done" kind of thing. So really it would only take like an hour at the most. Also the first CD/vol works for people who have had absolutely no training/exposure to singing before. I'm not saying it's pointless for someone with some skill/experience, it's not, but the fact that vowel modifications aren't really necessary to move on to Vol 2 according to Ken's points on when to do that, you might not be "song ready" if Vol 1 is the only stuff you've ever used. I'm going to do a cover soon, and even though my voice is pretty good, I feel it's only like 70% of its potential. I'll probably re do the cover after I really get into Vol 3 haha.

[ElWin]

jco5055. Really appreciate the comprehensive response. I'll read through this in more detail but seems really helpful from what I can see.

Thanks sir.