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I absolutely love this song, no autotune, no fancy tricks.... the notes are not particularly difficult for me including falsetto but the power and ease Michael has is godly compared to my windy voice.

What astounds me is the distortion used WITH the pitch simultaneously... I cannot even sound close to this. Should I give up? How does one begin to achieve this type of sound. HEEEEEEE :lol:

Is this type of sound possible for baritone or bass voice-types? [if so prove it ;) ]

- JayMC

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@Keith -> tons of artist have trained under Seth Riggs including :

Natalie Cole, Anita Baker, Stevie Wonder, Philip Webb, Julio Iglesias, David Archuleta, Daniela Romo, Ricky Martin, Whoopi Goldberg, Prince, Jesse McCartney, Josh Groban (First Album Only), Vanessa Hudgens, Ray Charles, Barbra Streisand, Michael Jackson, Cher, Kevin Kline, Tina Turner, Diana Ross, Jeremy Irons, Kirsten Dunst, Janet Jackson, Madonna, Samuel L. Jackson, Bernie Mac, Sharon Leal, Conan O'Brien... and many others.

None of them can sing this song with nearly as much finesse. Maybe Prince or Stevie. Rendering your point invalid. Im sure you have had a coach keith. Doesn't make a different when dealing with this level. I doubt many vocal coaches can sing this... not to be negative guys! I just think some pieces of this puzzle are missing, and some people are overestimating their knowledge and singing skills.

I would consider this raw talent/self-discovery... Riggs did not teach him this. There's no doubt in my mind. You don't "teach" Michael Jackson ;)

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Get a vocal coach and the practice every day. There are no secrets, icings on the cake, mysteries etc.

Get the basics down, then do those basics to perfection each day and you will be able to sing what you want.

Michael Jackson, Bruno Mars etc have been performing since a very very young age. Of course one might have different levels of ease grasping certain aspects of learning, but think if you had done the same amount of phonation as them, in the same setting i.e performing, having feedback etc. I don't think it's superhuman talent.

Of course, at least Michael had alot of negative stuff in conjunction with that making me not want to trade my life with him.

Cheers man!

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None of them can sing this song with nearly as much finesse. Maybe Prince or Stevie. Rendering your point invalid. Im sure you have had a coach keith. Doesn't make a different when dealing with this level. I doubt many vocal coaches can sing this... not to be negative guys! I just think some pieces of this puzzle are missing, and some people are overestimating their knowledge and singing skills.

In every sport, genre or hobby 90-95% of people don't reach elite level (arbitrary number).

With people trying to loose weight the failure rate is near 95%, does that mean dieting doesn't work? Hell no it means people are too lazy to do it right.

If you even contemplate giving up then you lack the drive necesarry to reach elite level. Commit to doing it, don't worry about results just make sure you show up every day and DO THE HARD WORK. Your voice will take you places you didn't know existed

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It's a much about technique as it is about talent. If you don't have the confidence and ability to know what noes you can play around on then you don't know your voice well enough. I k ow there are notes I can do this on and that on. I can go through a verse several times at the studio and not tune into the song. We sit down for several minutes and analyse what needs to sound like what. You're talking about pain, I want to hear that pain in your voice.

Michael knew how to tune into these things at a young age. Get your technique down, but don't expect that you don't have to focus on talent.

Seriously, you need to just practice more. Sing a note and practice distortion CAREFULLY on it. I've been practicing like crazy and can sing with much more ease.

It's harder for use heavy voiced guys. We need to lose the weight, modify the vowel and support accordingly.

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What astounds me is the distortion used WITH the pitch simultaneously... I cannot even sound close to this. Should I give up?

Yes, you should.

It just so happens that I can predict the future and I know 100% sure that you will be better off giving up.

...

The only one who can answer this kind of question is yourself, there is no guarantee, no insurance of results even if your voice is light and similar to his.

You are talking about one of the most acclaimed voices that was around. Understand that its not about worship, what if I asked you this:

"I was just seeing Roger Federer playing, and he is awesome, my arms are a bit longer than his, will I be able to play at the same level he does? Will I win a grand slam if I train?"

If you are totally honest with me, you will say that you can't know, but considering the number of people that won similar titles, the chances are not in my favour, are them?

The choice is mine to play or not, to learn or not. You can't do it for me, just the same, no one here can answer your question.

A teacher I know says that everyone can learn how to sing, but not everyone will be a singer. Meaning simply that there is a personal choice involved, there is the "talent" factor (your natural affinity with the task), there is luck, etc, etc.

Its your problem to solve, your decision and your life. There are no guarantees of anything, what I can tell you is that your chances to do what you want will be considerably higher if you start training and that time will not stop whether you train or not. And that training is not blindly playing around with your voice in the hope of becoming good someday.

All that I know is that I need to study ;)

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I didn't listen to the clip because it does not matter. Your voice is the one you are going to use to sing. Like others said Training helps you do the things you want to do.

Talent is being able to express what is in you so that others feel what you are singing about.

Do not worry that you might not have the sound of Michael. You have the sound of JayMC. That is better because it comes from you.

Use the training so that what is inside of Jay can come out easier and with passion for others to experience.

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Jay - You have to understand that the people you mentioned had a goal when they got a coach. They had a particular style and sound that they wanted. Not everyone wants to sing the way Michael Jackson sings. I sure don't! Yes, he was talented. But, we all have our own talents. Unless our parents recognized and nurtured them, we wouldn't know we had any. Michael trained his whole life. I see people at karaoke night singing M.J., without breaking a sweat. No lessons, no training.... Just grabbing the mic and singing it. Like they wrote it. But it's not all about talent. Talent will only get you so far. Unless one has perfect command and control over ones voice, training is going to get you where you want to be.

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The only difference between training technique and having natural talent is the amount of time and effort it takes to get to a level of proficiency. Those who don't have natural talent have to work harder and longer to get to the same level as those with natural talent. But there is no limit to how far you can progress.

But for the fifteen billionth time, GET A COACH. Otherwise, it will take over twice as long to get to the level of proficiency you desire to achieve.

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Also remember that those with "NATURAL" talent also worked for their voice. They don't just never sing unless they are in front of an audience.

My brother had natural talent but every song he sang he worked it out until it sounded the way he wanted it to sound. He worked with his voice all the time.

Michael may have been giving himself grief for the fact that he did not sound like Stevie Wonder or Jackie Wilson. We just don't know.

The main thing is Find a sound that is a JayMC and enhance that sound.

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First off, Michael Jackson was a great singer from before he was 10 years old. It's not a result of a coach. MDEW has it exactly right. The one thing all great singers have is the practice a ton. But they practice songs. You want to be able to sing this song? If you can hit these notes in head voice, sing it there. And do it over and over. If you use itunes, make a copy of the song and title it "The Way You Make Me Feel practice". Loop this song at least 5 times in a row, singing along with the melody. Bring in more resonance. Do not singer from the bottom, sing from the top.

Keep doing this until you can automatically reproduce the melody with your own voice. Bring more resonance in each time. You can do it. Focus on a round tone. Stop if you feel your voice fatiguing.

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I think the key is being unique/offering what others can't. For example, let's say that you and 10 other singers have completely mastered the KTVA program (and I use KTVA since its stages are a little easier to visualize "mastering").

Is everybody on equal footing/it would be impossible for the judges on American Idol or the Voice to pick a winner? No.

One key is genetics/how your tone is different than others, but this you can't really control, so I wouldn't worry too much about this.

The second key is your own style. How you use little nuances and interpret the piece. I wouldn't say that there is a better or worse way, but I believe that your own personal style can work somewhere/there is a place for you in the industry/music world. But practice/getting to a certain point technically is also integral imo.

Take guitar for example. Name all of the really technical players, such as Paul Gilbert, Yngwie, John Petrucci, Marty Friedman etc. If we really thought long and hard, we could order them in technical ability, but it's pointless. For one, there's crazy alternate picking that Paul Gilbert can do that Marty couldn't, while Marty has phrasing that Paul couldn't replicate 100%. Two, you can go on youtube where 16 year olds are shredding covers flawlessly.

So what separtates them/why did they "make it" while these kids aren't? Songwriting and originality/uniqueness.

I play guitar, and I've learned my share of Racer X and Dream Theater licks and tricks. But I used to think I wasn't that good because I couldn't sweep this passage or pick this part 100%. I then had an epiphany, where I realized that most of these guys didn't write out their parts absolutely 100%, it's more just how they play it. Right now, I could improvise or come up with a technical lick that these legends couldn't play 100%, just because of little nuances/picking decisions etc that I have ingrained in myself and that is unique to myself. Unless you're Steve Vai or are similarly obsessed, but I'd classify this more as a mental disorder or quirk haha.

Once I realized this, guitar became a lot more freeing and enjoyable. Heck, I don't even really learn covers anymore, I pretty much just stick to learning theory and writing myself.

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you are going to sing what you visualize, what you desire, if you put in the work...a lot of work and commitment.

like others have said the training and the hard work give you that versatility.....that ability to sing whatever you can imagine you can sing...trust me on this.

i was a contest recently where the judges picked what you had to sing.....they know me and they decided to give me a challenge and a half...do you know what song it was? yup, "billy jean."

rather that blurt out "no way, i can't sing this" i took it as a growth opportunity..as i'm listening to the song over and over, i hear how much support went into that song........support was key to that punchiness..and i'm no stranger to punchy vocals...lol!!!!

here i was on stage, a near 60 year old with a salt and pepper pony tail....and i just said you know what..i'm going for that sound......i'm going to get his sound...

next came "the climb" by miley cyrus.....i knew i wasn't going to nail that in the same key, so i dropped it a half but i studied it and i sang it...and i ended up actually liking that friggin song.

folks came up to me that night and said how does your voice come out like that....all these different voices...and i replied i visualize them.....

and that's what i'm saying to you.....quote from a book from maxwell maltz

"the mind cannot tell the difference between that which is real or vividly imagined."

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I believe in natural talent, I believe in lessons. I believe MJ had some natural rasp, period, paragraph, new book, all through his voice.

Your reply to Keith was unnecessary, I think, and his reply to that was for more accurate. As shocking as it may be, not everyone in the world wants to sound liek or sing like MJ. Crazy, I know, but there it is. Nothing against MJ. I liked his singing, too, without wanting to sound like him.

"You don't train Michael Jackson" - that's presumptuous and I think dismissive of the years of work he put into crafting his sound. Of which Seth Riggs may have only been a part and only because someone recorded the lesson to which you are no doubt referring.

However, each person does have a talent. A talent that can be strengthened and made endurable by training. Patricia Andsrejeski had a natural talent and an opera coach picked her right out of the school choir she was siging with. This gave her the technique to conserve her voice for 40+ years.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of using real names. Ms. Andsrejewski skipped out on her audition at Julliard to marry her boyfriend, Army Sargeant Kevin Benetar. And then she got into singing jazz, rock, etcetera.

Anne Wilson always liked to sing but her choir teacher taught her how to breathe, which gave her the endurance she needed.

It's not talent alone, it's not technique or training, alone. It is both.

As far as sounding just like MJ, give it up. I am still waiting to hear what Jay sounds like on more than just one phrase of words. It would be nice if you would just do "Twinkle, twinkle little star." But, realistically, I know, I will grow another year older waiting.

But if you want that style, don't let the image of MJ stop you. But I implore you to stop the hero worship. For once, just once, only this one time, would listen to some advice, like Bob's, and just go for it?

Or, was this thread just another MJ admiration thread or a chance to see people endlessly debate this and that?

Sing, Jay. Sing anything.

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Michael jackson had been singing PROFESSIONALLY FULL TIME for over 20 years at the time of recording that song.

When he was 6 years old he was already gigging full time professionally and recording. do you understand the hours and hours and hours and hours of work he's put in to develop his skills? not to mention the industry pros he was around that he was able to learn off by studying (which he did.) while his brothers went home to sleep he stayed in the studio studying other artists like stevie, marvin gaye etc and learned their tricks.

masterclasses with the greats.

Think about that FIRST before you try and compare yourself to him with your couple of years training it as a hobby.

Talent gives you a headstart...training CORRECTLY for years and years is what sets you apart from the rest.

Exactly.

You all know the 10,000 hours thing...

MJ put in his freakin 10,000 hours of singing alright. Jay, put in 10,000 hours of practice toward singing and then report back to us. I guarantee if you have half a brain when you practice (this involves consulting a coach at least occasionally and spend more of your time on singing than vocalizing) and you make it to 10,000 hours, you'll have blown this whole "hard work can't replicate talent" myth to pieces. Probably even by hour 1000.

You know who else put in, actually, well over 10,000 hours? Paul McCartney. Who is still going strong, he's playing a sold out concert in Boston, just a half hour drive away from my house, as we speak.

And how long ago did the Beatles get famous???

And I listened to part of an audiobook, I forget the title, about famous people like the Beatles and Bill Gates put in their 10,000 hours. And that was all BEFORE the Beatles got famous. They had this club they'd play 8 hours nearly every day of the week, where they built up their experience and stamina.

Add that all up, before fame, during fame, and still going strong at an old age...the dude must have sung 30,000 hours in his life...to think that's just talent, or that vocalizing alone will get you anywhere close to that level of expertise and longevity, is absurd.

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I had to learn this for business. The average number of working hours in the US, at least defined by the State of Texas when judging required experience to test for a license is 2000 hours. That's based on a 5 day, 40 hour work week. If you count in breaks for the restroom and or getting a drink of water, etc, it still comes out to 1600 hours in a year.

I am willing to bet that if you practice a few hours a day with a few lessons, here and there, 3 times a week, let's call it 300 hours in a year. Give it at least that much and see what it does.

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you are going to sing what you visualize, what you desire, if you put in the work...a lot of work and commitment.

like others have said the training and the hard work give you that versatility.....that ability to sing whatever you can imagine you can sing...trust me on this.

i was a contest recently where the judges picked what you had to sing.....they know me and they decided to give me a challenge and a half...do you know what song it was? yup, "billy jean."

rather that blurt out "no way, i can't sing this" i took it as a growth opportunity..as i'm listening to the song over and over, i hear how much support went into that song........support was key to that punchiness..and i'm no stranger to punchy vocals...lol!!!!

here i was on stage, a near 60 year old with a salt and pepper pony tail....and i just said you know what..i'm going for that sound......i'm going to get his sound...

next came "the climb" by miley cyrus.....i knew i wasn't going to nail that in the same key, so i dropped it a half but i studied it and i sang it...and i ended up actually liking that friggin song.

folks came up to me that night and said how does your voice come out like that....all these different voices...and i replied i visualize them.....

and that's what i'm saying to you.....quote from a book from maxwell maltz

"the mind cannot tell the difference between that which is real or vividly imagined."

right on point!

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I have always believed that every singer is talented in a unique way. let me explain. I've been singing all my life, and I have people telling me I have a 'cool voice' like forever! So WHY DID THE HECK DID I START LEARNING VOCAL TECHNIQUES? Couldn't I just bask in the amateur glory of my so-called nice voice? No!! Why? Singing is a process of self discovery as much as anything. You might need a vocal coach to help you discover your instrument or you might discover it yourself. And HA!, that's when technique comes in!!

To some people, vocal techniques really makes them aware of what they never knew they had! I know some people who totally didn't know how to sing. Trust me, more like they were born totally blind! They used vocal techniques to learn everything about singing from the ground up and are now very decent singers (received their eye-sight). To others, it complements what they wish they had/could do. Though they claim I have a "naturally great tone", I decided to learn techniques because of these 2 (and yep only these 2) reasons: 1)Sing in the tenor range 2)Learn vocal distortion

I have musician friends who growl and distort their voice effortlessly like what you here in the CVT audios and have no idea what curbing/neutral etc or any other CVT term is. In that way, I say they're more gifted in that aspect. These boil down to the genetics stuff and the influence of your environment. Just imagine, I have this annoying but cool :) talkative friend who is always shouting and making fun of others in college and dude pisse* me off because he can distort his voice at a B5. And it sounds super cool. And am like: "OMG people learn to do that!" It used to really discourage me! I remember, I had audio recordings on only his distortions, yep just listening to it and 'hating' on him lol jk. Sadly, I lost my phone and the recordings!

Some people have a naturally Raspy tone, others learn to get a raspy tone when singing. No vocal technique taught me how to do a vocal run, I've been doing it since I knew myself lol so that means I'm talented in that field but I was shocked when I realized that people actually learn how to do vocal run when I purchased my first singing program!

BTW: It's great to be talented but hardwork beats talent when talent is lazy

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First off, Michael Jackson was a great singer from before he was 10 years old. It's not a result of a coach. MDEW has it exactly right. The one thing all great singers have is the practice a ton. But they practice songs. You want to be able to sing this song? If you can hit these notes in head voice, sing it there. And do it over and over. If you use itunes, make a copy of the song and title it "The Way You Make Me Feel practice". Loop this song at least 5 times in a row, singing along with the melody. Bring in more resonance. Do not singer from the bottom, sing from the top.

Keep doing this until you can automatically reproduce the melody with your own voice. Bring more resonance in each time. You can do it. Focus on a round tone. Stop if you feel your voice fatiguing.

This. Thank you! I think this is what is working for me right now but the "Michael Jackson" growl is something I will try and work on maybe it will be in the new TVS series.

Technically speaking there are 3 main difficult things here because I can sing the notes, but not with the power or resonance he had:

1. Somewhat of a edgy high-mix is necessary but I would not say "pure head voice"

2. The growl must be maintained up in the high notes

3. Instant switching to "hee" or "oo" in a "reinforced-falsetto" with NO growl. A kind of sound which I make fine if I do not use the "h" and purposely try to maintain adduction.

If I can hit all those 3 then I would not have any problem with the song. My "chest voice" is a couple notes short to sing the song completely which is why my full vocal range is required for this song. The growl in my opinion should come second and I believe it is false fold growl which I can do in my chest voice but not any higher. The random edgy heady sounds are a matter of agility for me and really if I was only doing that alone it sounds great but doing all 3 together back and forth drains me. I can sing this song also in a twangy low head voice which sounds slightly girlier than Michael's and my regular chest voice can get very close... and when I feel I am right in bridge it either really "resonant" and literally a different sound (I can work with it) or I fall apart completely. The oo-ee slides and ng sirens alone have mostly been giving me tremendous results. Lip bubbles/trills do not help me much with this song because barely any air is used and twang is not the main focus of these exercises.

Am I on the right track guys? The plan is: 1.Sing the notes in a top-down manner 2. Make them more powerful 3. Add distortion (false fold?) 4. Learn to switch to pure falsetto quickly. HEE-HEE

:)

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jaymc.....you are looking for magic keys again....just keep trying to sing the song.....take it line by line...

get it down clean first!

this is not easy stuff. understand you have a very demanding tessitura, sitting up on g's and a's can be brutal for a singer, even experienced ones. many times jackson lowered the key, or lip synced his way through those songs...lower the key and listen to the video below to get the feel of the song...

a lower key will give comfort so you can focus on being sexy too ...lol!!!!

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