Luna33 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Hi singing people, I have a question about changing vocal style of singing after many years...I am a female who had sung mostly pop music for a long time. I stopped singing for a few years and over that time my musical tastes have totally changed and I prefer my music and lyrics darker and heavier.. mostly progressive metal, rock and alternative music now. I started singing again about 8 months with a SLS teacher and have been working really hard to get more power and a deeper voice as obviously I want to sing the sort of music I like and even though I can definitely feel and hear improvements in my voice overall, I still sound like a pop singer trying to sing a rock song and my voice still seems too light and airy..and just 'girly' I guess. Not at all rock singer I can get it quite low but then it is not as strong. I have an audition for an alternative rock band next week and I have am almost sure they are going to laugh me out of the studio...I know that some female rock singers (like Amy Lee) keep their classically trained voices yet still sing rock but this is the sort of band where you need to have a rock sound. I think it has a lot to do with the placement of vowels and the way I am pronouncing words...I am not sure if this makes any sense...but from what I can tell rock singers seem to speak their words more than actually sing them? In shorter more forceful bursts as opposed to runs and drawing out the vowels...I dont know if that makes any sense but if anyone has any tips or can point me in the direction of some I would be extremely grateful. Thank you so much :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 A week is not a whole lot of time to change things. I'm sure you are aware that at the audition you need to be on autopilot - they are going to want to get a feel for your stage presence and charisma... you don't want to be thinking about vowels and technique during the audition. Are you going to be auditioning with a specific song(s)? If you could post your performance here I'm sure we could help you zero in on certain vowels. Take what you can from our feedback, work on it. Then it's just repetition until the audition where you need to not worry about technique and just go for it. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate your feedback. I think I may have jumped the gun in applying to audition for a band before learning to be fully confident in my singing in this genre. It is quite rare to find a band who is willing to audition a female for this kind of style and I was just excited at the opportunity...I suppose it will be a good learning experience if nothing else but I agree I am going to be extremely nervous and focused on my voice rather than performing. Part of the audition is to come up with lyrics/melody for one of their originals so I am still working on that as well...so as soon as I finish that I will post it up and very happily accept any and all feedback good or bad. I have been doing a bit of research on the subject over the last few days and it seems that the general consensus is the SLS is not the best technique for singing rock music or anything that requires a bit of power. I have been asking my teacher how to get that kind of a voice for many weeks and never seemed to get an answer and now I think I understand why! I cant find a single front man or woman in rock band that uses this I feel a bit stupid! Would you guys agree with this? I mean I am sure it is a good foundation to build on but I am going to try and find another teacher who is more open to all styles and techniques as well. Anyway, thanks again, I will post song once completed :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Yeah sadly SLS has been widely known to not teach techniques powerful enough for rock and metal styles. They don't teach belting or distortion which probably encompasses over half of the singing techniques used in those styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 hi luna, not everyone you talk to will agree, but may i just suggest for the powerful, thick, rich, ringy, singing you have in mind, you really have to have your support down. i have found the biggest "voice saver" is how you launch the note, (onset) and support. if you are new to intense hard rock singing, you must know it will place great physical demands on your body and your vocal folds. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 I think I may have jumped the gun in applying to audition for a band before learning to be fully confident in my singing in this genre. It is quite rare to find a band who is willing to audition a female for this kind of style and I was just excited at the opportunity...I suppose it will be a good learning experience if nothing else No - you didn't jump the gun. Auditioning will be a fantastic life lesson for you whether it turns out or not. Just remind yourself you have NOTHING to lose and EVERYTHING to gain. If it doesn't work out - there will be the next one coming along - or you may start your own band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 There was a forum member who has not been around recently. Her login is Rychemaiden and she might have had some insight into this. Pat Benetar really did study opera singing in high school and was supposed to audition at Julliard. But she got married to her boyfriend and life took a different direction. But let is not forget Tarja from Nightwish. Not only classically trained but continued classical training during breaks in the touring and recording schedule of Nightwish. You can do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Another example of an opera voice in rock. I include this one because it is the first "rock" song she got to write with then new husband, and still current husband, Neil Giraldo. That's Neil, playing the lead guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 And here's a blues singer who sells a lot in the country and cross-over market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Point is, you can singer whatever genre that you want to sing. Don't let some "sound ideal" stop you. I sure don't. With mixed results, of course. You want to sing hard rock or heavy metal? Then do it. Go to the audition. Relax. Sing the way that you sing. No excuses, No explanations. No grand changes in how you sing the day you audition. Whatever sound you have may be just what they are looking for. And if it's not what they want, part friends. Move on. Here's a woman who's not really that technical of a singer but man can she play guitar and she did the hard rock and heavy metal thing, all on her own terms, except for videos. She didn't know how to dance so the director had her strike poses and he made up for it in editing. She semi-retired during the 90's and raised some children. And last year, released a new album. She is my age and still looks good. The only person who is going to hold you back is you. Rockonwhichyabadself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hmmm I suspected as much Owen, thanks for confirming. I feel a bit frustrated, I have been trying to get an answer for months from my singing teacher on this. The fact that I have no idea how to distort or belt s not a good sign are there any vocal apps that demonstrate teach this? Is distortion the vocal fry / scream sound? I can do growls but there uses are limited and don't really sound rock like anyway, that raspy high sound is more what I want to learn. I have a lesson next week with a new teacher who teaches rock, of course it will take a lot more than one lesson, months and years probably... Thanks geno for your encouragement, you are right, I am not going to be able to learn proper rock technique in a few days so I think I'm just going to have to use what I have, pretend to be confident and learn from it. hi luna, not everyone you talk to will agree, but may i just suggest for the powerful, thick, rich, ringy, singing you have in mind, you really have to have your support down. i have found the biggest "voice saver" is how you launch the note, (onset) and support. if you are new to intense hard rock singing, you must know it will place great physical demands on your body and your vocal folds. bob In theory I understand this, I breath with my diaghpram and tense my abs when I need to get extra power but not all the time or often at all as but with the SLS lessons I have been doing breathing and support has not been the focus, more so keeping a low larynx, closing the cords...so less air escapes.. which means I use my support minimally right now. I am realising now how much more physical work this sort of singing entails. Can you possibly explain the demands it will place on my vocal folds? One of the things SLS singing has helped me with is that I can sing for as much and as long as I like without feeling vocal fatigue or hoarseness. Can you still maintain that ability with correct technique in rock singing? Do you mean that the focus is on your support more than the throat? Sorry for so many questions.... I just really want to understand. I am a very slim person as well, aside from learning proper support am I going to have to join a gym?? Thank you! Thank you Ron for posting all the videos, yes Tarja fron Nightwish is amazing....this is the sort of music and Evanescence that I love most and would like to sing in a band with. I would be better suited to this than alternative rock but have not been able to find a band like this where I am... Yet anyway. Pat Benatar has that natural husk rasp that I would love... But I do not have! I did not know she was classically trained... That makes her even more amazing! Do you have to be born with that kind of husk or can it be learned? Thanks so much for your help and encouragement! Love the videos Anyway I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with questions, I have a lot to learn, feel like I am starting over in a way.. Wish I found this place sooner!! Thanks again :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consumingfire39 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hmmm I suspected as much Owen, thanks for confirming. I feel a bit frustrated, I have been trying to get an answer for months from my singing teacher on this. The fact that I have no idea how to distort or belt s not a good sign are there any vocal apps that demonstrate teach this? Is distortion the vocal fry / scream sound? I can do growls but there uses are limited and don't really sound rock like anyway, that raspy high sound is more what I want to learn. I have a lesson next week with a new teacher who teaches rock, of course it will take a lot more than one lesson, months and years probably... Thanks geno for your encouragement, you are right, I am not going to be able to learn proper rock technique in a few days so I think I'm just going to have to use what I have, pretend to be confident and learn from it. In theory I understand this, I breath with my diaghpram and tense my abs when I need to get extra power but not all the time or often at all as but with the SLS lessons I have been doing breathing and support has not been the focus, more so keeping a low larynx, closing the cords...so less air escapes.. which means I use my support minimally right now. I am realising now how much more physical work this sort of singing entails. Can you possibly explain the demands it will place on my vocal folds? One of the things SLS singing has helped me with is that I can sing for as much and as long as I like without feeling vocal fatigue or hoarseness. Can you still maintain that ability with correct technique in rock singing? Do you mean that the focus is on your support more than the throat? Sorry for so many questions.... I just really want to understand. I am a very slim person as well, aside from learning proper support am I going to have to join a gym?? Thank you! Thank you Ron for posting all the videos, yes Tarja fron Nightwish is amazing....this is the sort of music and Evanescence that I love most and would like to sing in a band with. I would be better suited to this than alternative rock but have not been able to find a band like this where I am... Yet anyway. Pat Benatar has that natural husk rasp that I would love... But I do not have! I did not know she was classically trained... That makes her even more amazing! Do you have to be born with that kind of husk or can it be learned? Thanks so much for your help and encouragement! Love the videos Anyway I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out with questions, I have a lot to learn, feel like I am starting over in a way.. Wish I found this place sooner!! Thanks again I don't have too much time here but I will try to answer your questions. The demands, with really good support, should be less on your vocal mechanism that they currently are. It will be much more physical and more tiring in different ways, but you will love the freedom, stamina, versatility and tone that it will bring. Yes you can maintain that with good technique in rock singing. At first the focus will be more on your support but that will eventually become automatic or very close to automatic. When that is working well, without even focusing on it, you will have FAR MORE freedom to make changes in your sound, add rasp, belt, change modes, have a balanced emission, strong vibrato, etc. I would venture to say that once you get the support right, you will quickly understand what belting is because that ability will all of the sudden be available to you where right now, with your current level of support, it probably isn't even an option. You don't have to join a gym but I would strongly encourage you to be in good physical condition and do a good ammount of cardio work. No you don't have to be born with that ability. In fact, Pat Benatar probably did not have that developed at all since she was so far into classical music. What she did have was real solid foundation when it came to support and technique. Learning for her was probably very easy because like belting, that was available to her without straining the vocal mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggplantbren Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 It is definitely possible to learn to sing in a more powerful, loud, rockish manner. That doesn't mean you can't keep your current style as well, for when you want to use that. Support is part of the equation and so are vowels and the effort level you use (although it should never hurt your throat). SLS are known to favour more medium-intensity ways of using the voice so it might be worth looking into another teacher for this particular aspect of your singing if your current teacher can't get you there. The people here can also offer all sorts of technique advice. It might be a good idea to find a few clips of a singer doing what you would like to do, (e.g. what is this person doing at 1:23 in this clip?...) and take it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 SLS are known to favour more medium-intensity ways of using the voice so it might be worth looking into another teacher for this particular aspect of your singing if your current teacher can't get you there. More like low-intensity...IMHO and experience with the method. YMMV. I think the one thing Luna will learn from this audition is how much intensity and volume rock singing really requires...I'm concerned she won't be able to hear herself...that was the case when I was working with SLS, it took me so much effort to get any kind of reasonable volume that I'd crack. But she trained with it more than I did so she's probably at least able to get a medium intensity, hopefully. But Luna, whatever you do, don't attempt to do what you're not certain your voice can do. Not at an audition. Be prepared to give it a little more if they ask you to sing louder, but understand that, unless you've trained that (and leading up to the audition you should), your voice won't respond immediately to it in a productive manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Thanks so much for answering my questions Shabutie and eggplantbren and Owen for your advice. I really appreciate it so much, I know you have your own singing business to attend to! I really don't think i will be able to sing over a band as i am now for very long...I'm think I've been a bit naive about joining a band,without proper training first. I think I will put up a sample of my singing so you can hear as I am now....I recorded something on my iPhone memo recorder before, its not great quality but at the moment it's all I have. I am going to invest in some proper recording gear which is my next question but for another thread. How can I post a iPhone voice memo? I am not confident enough to post on Facebook and it seems I can only email it. I have an mp3 converter, but still not sure aside from Facebook or Twitter if I have any other options how to post it. It's ok if not an easy way, I will ask a friend tomorrow to help. Ok well thanks again guys, your help is helping me a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Geno, what exercises did you do to transform your voice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 luna, i can't write too much of a reply, a little busy today, but i'll try... i speak from experience...a bad experience.....vocal polyps.... when you sing hard rock (for example i sing a lot of intense, punchy vocals) if you aren't skilled, there is a tendency to onset (launch the voice) too glottally....too severely.... the "attack" is too forceful and uncontrolled which can cause the vocal folds to get slapped together, rather than applied..... this leads to a battering of the folds and they will react with swelling or if continued over a period of time small calluses can develop which you do not want.. support basically helps you to control and meter exhalation which is important with rock singing. please, get the support down.....it's the best first step you can take... then you can make those punchy, intense sounds, but you take the brunt of it with your support muscles. having control over the onset of the voice is crucial to vocal health... proper support will provide you the power, control, range, stamina, and intensity you need for singing convincing rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Adding to what Bob said. Understand also that there is an aspect of specialization. When you get used to sing on one way, it does not mean that you have the background to sing in any possible way, someone that is used to sing light with not much preparation to do otherwise, may be able to get an aggressive heavy sound in a day or two, but it does not mean that its a good idea to dive into a routine using it. The opposite is also true, a sudden change from a heavy and powerfull production to singing only light material can have an impact too. Preparing for your goal and having resources to handle difficult days is wiser than just chasing for sounds. About the method being good to prepare you to sing rock or not, that depends on the teacher and yourself. Human voice is the same no matter the name of the implementation, if the teacher is good and know about singing technique and you are applied to your studies, you will have results. There are plenty of examples of good and poor professionals on any kind of method. And this kind of question your teacher should be able to clarify to you, the method name is no justification... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Luna, as far as Pat Benetar goes, notice that she only does the "rasp" on her lower notes. Her higher notes are laser sharp and crystal clear. Same with Ronnie James Dio. He might use rasp in his middle notes, which he would by shifting his vowel sound to a, like in the word cat. But his highest notes, he would sing clean. Find out what your voice does. In the words of Bruce Dickinson, "So, that's how they do that thing. What can my voice do?" And he made a career out of that and can still do everything in his 50's that he did in his 20's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Hey guys, sorry for late reply, last few days been really busy....thank you one again for your advice felipe, ron and bob.... I really am so so grateful to you for answering all my questions the advice I have received on this forum. Special thanks to Phil too for all your help if you are reading! You've all helped me realise how incompatible SLS is for the style of singing I want to do....you guys have no idea how much I have learned the past week. I am just really happy so excuse the ramble below, read only if you are bored but I know you will get my excitement, my friends and family are not musical so they do not really share my enthusiasm at all lol I started with a great teacher....he himself has an incredible voice that he was more than happy to display..I was so impressed and he has many famous rock singers who he has trained and who are currently under his tuition and I can honestly say I learned sooooo much in just one lesson, he confirmed pretty much all you have told me. He pulls no punches, really honest and answered all my questions and most importantly he asked me a lot of questions, what i want to achieve and about myself etc etc and I feel he "gets" what I want and will tailor the lessons to me specifically. I really should have done a lot more research sooner because I've been asking my SLS teacher about breathing and being able to sustain notes with power and was its been drilled into me repeatedly its "dangerous" to sing loudly and that SLS was the only safe way to sing and breathing is not important and will take care of itself if i am using correct vocal cord closure and a low larynx. I will say that i have learned good things too.....i am sure for pop singers it is an good technique but the last 8 months i have worked really hard thinking this was the best and safest technique and my teacher knew what i wanted to achieve so i feel like my i have been wasting time and money. Ok that's my vent... I know better now, that's the main thing. thanks to your help and my new coach I am on the road to where I want to be. He assessed what he called "true" voice (no head voice allowed!!!) ha ha it was strange at first to be able to sing with full power especially up high without switching to head....can open my mouth again...its been so unnatural to keep it so small I was really surprised to find that i could sing that high in full chest voice. Best thing...that awful nasal sound that comes in head voice totally gone. I am so excited! He said i have a freak range which is cool (contralto to light soprano)...i can still sing a lot higher in head but he only assessed my true range at this lesson.. I was told I cannot force a husk...but he can teach me distortion and power and other tricks to get a more rock sounding voice. Anyway that's the good news! Bad news is that my breathing technique is terrible, basically i have to start learning again from scratch with this and my posture and mouth/jaw positioning needs a little work... But it just feels sooooo much more natural to me to sing this way, I feel so inspired and excited having that one lesson gave me what i needed to create a better sound at my audition today and I think it went okay, they said they could hear me and they liked it so we shall see. Admittedly my voice does feel a little strained compared to usual but once I get the breathing sorted hopefully this be ok too. Anyway I'm sure you are all bored but I did I mention I am excited?! Thank you all once again, your advice really did give me the answers I was looking for to start getting the voice I want. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Luna might I ask who was this coach? It's okay to praise folks by name here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin040 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Same with Ronnie James Dio. He might use rasp in his middle notes, which he would by shifting his vowel sound to a, like in the word cat. But his highest notes, he would sing clean. What do you mean with shifting a vowel to sound like an a and how does this makes it easier to activate rasp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Luna it looks good . Keep it up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Oh good, I wasn't sure...Peter Vox...I'm in Australia as is he obviously! he has trained himself in the US quite a bit and has decades of experience... Have you heard of him? Here's a link if interested http://voxsingingacademy.com.au/singing-teacher-peter-vox/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna33 Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Just wanted to add that even though it says he trained with Seth Riggs he does NOT teach SLS apparently he has trained in many different techniques so has all experiences to draw on...I don't know what technique I began learning yesterday but it was the total opposite if everything I've done so far lol Thanks felipe!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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