"Child in Time" - An Amazing Scream Performance! - Robert Lunte

[Validar]

I think one of the downsides of progressing as a musician is that we tend to become far too analytical and lose our ability to be casual listeners. Considering how much time and effort we put into so many details and techniques on the road to bettering ourselves, it's certainly understandable how the analytical side may be instilled in us. Strangely, I used to be envious of non-musicians for their ability to simply take a song in and not automatically go into "dissect mode".

In recent years, I've gotten a little better in this regard and more often I'm asking myself "but did I like what I heard?" once I've gone through the inevitable nitpicking process.

With that said, in this case, at the end of it all....I liked what I heard.

[Robert Lunte]

Validar... that is also kind of where Im coming from... I "feel" your sentiments... I don't argue that a note may be a half step in question or this or that... but I am very much looking at this from 40,000 feet and not nit picking it... I think as a whole, as a work of art in its complete context, not its minutia, the effort, its pretty darn good... and I can be objective about myself... I have done some real crap before too... but this would not be. I am proud of this and think its worthy...

I invite any of you guys to give it a try... see the "Child in Time" challenge post I made. I have even provided you with a link to download the bed track... so get after it if your as crazy and audacious as I was to even think to try it...

[Validar]

I think as a whole, as a work of art in its complete context, not its minutia, the effort, its pretty darn good... and I can be objective about myself... I have done some real crap before too... but this would not be. I proud of this and think its worthy...

I agree completely, which is why I was saying sometimes we "can't see the forest for the trees" from a listener perspective. As a whole, it is undeniably good for many reasons.

[ronws]

I remember the previous CIT challenge. I think it was last year. A few people put up parts of it. But there was only 3 full covers. And i think Robert Lunte was acknowledged as the most proficient singer in technique. Quite a high mark. As I had said before, I would hate to be on the same concert bill, in a hypothetical double bill of performing acts. as Robert Lunte. Because all they will remember is him. I don't think it would matter who performed first.

We had some other young newbie that came in talking smack but he never put up even part of a verse and I don't see him around, any more.

I remember the spot in this song where it sounds like Robert went to C#. Bon Jovi got away with it in "Wanted." The guitar arpeggio that begins the song and is part of the transitions between verses is in Dm. But the rhythm chords are modal. Tonic + fifth. But at the beginning of verses, the rhythm adds the F# and makes it Dmaj, on purpose. Doesn't make the song out of key. It's an artistic choice, as far as I can see.

If I want to hear the original, I won't listen to Robert's, Igor's, or even my own cover. I will pop in "Made in Japan" and listen to the original.

I know I am odd but when I hear an artist or a band is doing a "cover," I am truly not expecting a carbon copy of the original. I want to hear their take on it. Like when Dolly Parton does "Heaven." I do not, in all honesty, expect to hear something exactly like Collective Soul would sound. Then, again, I am odd.

This is still an amazing song, done so well by Robert. And, again, anyone who wants to try it should try it. And, like I mentioned in the previous challenge, a person does not have to do the A5. Anything in the key of Am should do, which would be E5 or C5.

I even suggested that someone should do this as a baritone or bass but no takers, alas.

Do the song in your own voice. It can be as beautiful as the original. Like the way that Johnny Cash made a bigger hit out of "Hurt" than NIN did. Even Trent acknowledges that everyone knows the song because of Johnny Cash, singing about half an octave or so lower than Trent did.

Granted, any time we post something in the review section, we are inviting just that. Critique and review. Like me goofing around with "Everbody Talks" and my portable digital recorder. I was really looking for ideas on how recording with that thing sounded. But everyone found other problems with it, including the "not good. I did not like it." I learned a lot of stuff in that thread. Including some performance tips not related to recording but how I was ending notes and how they sound in the recording.

(tee hee hee, I still play the song and I took the advice of capo'ing up 1 fret and feel much more relaxed. And changed to heavier strings, which may help the guitar stay in tune for at least one song. )

I have some songs on my media page that I never posted here for review. I know I did the song well and it didn't need fixing. Like "Locomotive Breath" by Jethro Tull. No, I don't sound like Ian Anderson and I don't care. ('cause I'm a bad man.)

Robert has point, to some extent and so does Owen. We are all reviewing each other. And outside of this forum, I have never heard of most of you guys and certainly see no albums released.

A few members with released albums don't spend a lot of time picking on others' stuff. They're too busy releasing albums, I guess.

Something I should be doing, covers, originals, whatever. I better start doing something for my retirement. Time is catching up. I am over the hill but what we often neglect to realize is that once you are over the hill, you are going downhill and picking up speed. :mad:

Again, this is a good cover of this song and I look forward to other people's submissions, with no malice aforethought. I will give it the same treatment as I give Robert's or any other person's cover.

Choose a bat, step up to the plate, swing for the fences ....

[Owen Korzec]

Ron I was actually thinking of, in my version, doing some of the verse parts an octave lower, and going pretty baritoney on it. But since I can't quite even get the E5-D5-C5 riff down, I concluded I am not ready to post a version of this. I also want to make use of the A5 that exists in my voice. But getting from that to the E5 with legato has proved a huge challenge. There is some kind of bridge-like phenomenon between the two that I haven't figured out how to negotiate yet.

[Robert Lunte]

@Validar... thanks for your support and objective insights... I think this discussion needed to hear that point of view, from someone other then all the 'noise' I make sometimes trying to be understood by my peer group here...

@Ron, thanks for your continued support. I feel your posts are pretty good Ron... you have become a wise sage around here, you say smart and insightful things... you bring up an interesting point regarding the A5... Its interesting to me that I get called out on a modal interval or a strange, exotic scale movement that blasts by in about a 10th of a second, but no one seems to care that the A5 is not in the song... I thought that would be a point people would whine about... but there is a lesson here... its very true, the note does NOT have to be an A5 to capture the essence of the song. I think a fair amount of people familiar with the tune, wouldn't even notice its not the A5... E5 is high enough to get the desired effect and "point' of the scream sequence. It says something about how you can make core changes to melody and execution and if its done well, people don't notice or care.

[Owen Korzec]

That is a cool point about the A5 Rob and I agree. I kind think it is nearly impossible for an A5 to sound good...let's be real here, at that pitch, it's a shriek, not singing!!!! The one exception I can think of would be Steve Perry...he goes up there and it actually sounds pleasant to me, but with most singers including Gillan, I feel like when they go THAT high, it's just for the sake of singing a super high note and isn't actually a sound I would want to hear too often. E5 is really much closer to the sweet spot of intensity in the male head voice. I think that's part of why this melody transposition works so great here.

And I feel the same way regarding key changes...sometimes you need to stick to the original key, but sometimes you can really move it down, a lot even, and no one will point the finger at you. I did that with "Iris"...everybody liked the lower version better because it fit my voice better, and no one complained about it being musically inferior.

[Robert Lunte]

OWEN, arguably.. and E5 is just more sonorous and sounds better then a shreeky A5... it has more body to it... I received an email today from Alessandro del Vecchio, one of our TVS MCIs in Italy who plays keyboards with Glenn Hughes right now on tour and saw them play... he told me that no one in Deep Purple these days even sing "CIT" anymore... these guys have thrown in the towel on this song... not even Glenn Hughes will touch it anymore... its just too... what ever... god bless anyone that can squeek an A5 consistently and if you can, so what? at some point, harmonic color breaks down and frequency gets so high that its just necessary and you get diminishing return from it... which is why I don't understand why I get emails from people sometimes about learning how to do whistles... to me, whistles are just parlor tricks... like breaking glass ... its fun and funny, but with a very rare exception... when are you ever going to use these kinds of phonations? I think they are kinda silly and i think its stupid for students of singing to put time and energy into trying to get whistles going, unless you want to just get a laugh with your buddies at the bar...

Most of the action in singing and beauty occurs between the 3rd and 4th octaves... get real good from about E4 to C5 and you have every note you really need for a lifetime career of singing.

[gilad]

I am going to come out and say it, there is no way I can sing "Child in time" I think my vocals would sound squeaky, and thin. Then again, I am not trying to build a thick voice in the highs. I might still give it a try, and probably keep it to myself if I don't think its worthy to post. Either way, I don't think I can even get close to your production Rob. You did an excellent job, and the point i mentioned earlier, is probably just an artistic touch of yours.

[Robert Lunte]

Well, why don't you guys just try to do it in your own way... as an academic experience, its fine...

[Manolito Mystiq]

What will be the main thread for submission? I mean, we have three threads now.

[Robert Lunte]

It would obviously be the thread titled "CHILD IN TIME" CHALLENGE! NOW YOU STEP UP!"?

http://themodernvocalist.punbb-hosting.com/viewtopic.php?id=7598

[Manolito Mystiq]

You could cut ’n’ paste Enander’s submission into that thread, then.

[Robert Lunte]

Sure, I wasn't aware that this thread existed.

[ronws]

I am tempted to do the song, again. I did it in the last challenge, even though I was NOT one of the people challenged because I like your (Lunte) last cover.

This time, I would use the dynamic mic instead of the condenser mic. I tend to stomp the bejesus out a condenser mic.

I do the A5. Because it feels right for the artistic interpretation I want to bring.

I would truly love for Owen or someone to do a more baritonic or even basso version of this song, as I suggested last time. And one of the things I like in both of Lunte's versions is some of the low notes that he can do that Ian Gillan could never do, good voice or bad voice.

And to confirm what Lunte has said, though it is not needed, I have read in other press releases, DP is not doing CIT on the tour because too many people expect that A5 and he cannot do it. I don't think Ian can even do an E5 like Lunte did in this cover. And the top note is not important. A harmonically relevant note IS what is important. For those who don't know music theory, the key of the song is A minor. Which is comprised of the notes, A, C, and E. Get any one of those notes, in any octave, and you are in tune with the song. Or be creative and do a C# and make it A major for a moment. It's art and you, whoever you are, are the artist.

What is in the set list? Stuff like "Highway Star" and a few others that also invite crowd sing-alongs. I would do big hits like "Hush." I would love to hear the current live version of "Perfect Strangers." That is an awesome song, but I digress.

As I have found, the challenge is to sing on pitch and with intent, regardless of where it is in the range. And hey, we're not trying to sell this on an album.

Have fun with it, I say. Do whatever you can do with this song. Whoever "you" may happen to be. Try different sub-texts.

To me, the song is about the experience of combat in war. What does the song mean to you?

[Robert Lunte]

Chris Miyai is back... He's free to do his thing...

[gno]

Great job Robert! Nice production / recording / video. Your vocals are in control all the way through the range. Nice distortion control. When 99% of the song is under total vocal control, the little pitch parts are nothing. I have little pitch issues all the time - so does every singer here, as well as all the pro's. We're so used to hearing modern recordings where every phrase is pitch corrected that it sometimes affects our judgement. We're comparing human singing to "computer assisted" singing.

If you go and listen to a live version of Ian from 1972 it won't take you long to count up a dozen pitch issues - he's all over the map on pitch. But I love Ian's voice and he is a master of this song - so I don't hold it against him at all. It really doesn't matter at this point. It is about the whole package - style, delivery, interpretation, etc. It is not about being as perfect as we are used to on pitch corrected recordings that have been prevalent for the last couple decades. That's how I see it anyway.

As for the "to copy or not to copy" question - I think it is great to copy when you are young and finding your own voice. A very useful step. But a gradual shift toward developing your own voice and your own interpretation will take over. At that point you make every song your own.

[Robert Lunte]

Great job Robert! Nice production / recording / video. Your vocals are in control all the way through the range. Nice distortion control. When 99% of the song is under total vocal control, the little pitch parts are nothing. I have little pitch issues all the time - so does every singer here, as well as all the pro's. We're so used to hearing modern recordings where every phrase is pitch corrected that it sometimes affects our judgement. We're comparing human singing to "computer assisted" singing.

If you go and listen to a live version of Ian from 1972 it won't take you long to count up a dozen pitch issues - he's all over the map on pitch. But I love Ian's voice and he is a master of this song - so I don't hold it against him at all. It really doesn't matter at this point. It is about the whole package - style, delivery, interpretation, etc. It is not about being as perfect as we are used to on pitch corrected recordings that have been prevalent for the last couple decades. That's how I see it anyway.

As for the "to copy or not to copy" question - I think it is great to copy when you are young and finding your own voice. A very useful step. But a gradual shift toward developing your own voice and your own interpretation will take over. At that point you make every song your own.

Well said Geno, pretty much what I was thinking too... I appreciate your support. Respectfully.... :cool:

[Robert Lunte]

I'm going to stick up for Rob here.

Most of the posts in this thread are pretty ridiculous. I feel that most people only critique things because it's a "critique forum" so they just have to spout off anything that comes to mind. "oh i didn't feel it" what kind of comment is that.

Most of the "critique" here is people confusing their opinion with fact. especially posts like MDEW's where he said it lacked feel or whatever it was. He's saying it like it's a fact. It's opinion. just because you don't feel something doesn't mean it lacked feel, because many others may definitely "feel it". Points like that have no substance. What is that type of critique. whatever man. pop those comments in the bin LOL!

It's like those food critiques that go into 3 star michelin restaurants and are like "that sauce was too thick" LOL so there's a factual measurement of what "too thick" is now? it's your opinion and the bottom line is, unless he cares about your opinion then it's meaningless to him.

I applaud robert for being one of the few vocal coaches that puts up his singing. and yeah it doesn't make him "above being critiqued" but it doesn't mean he has to care about your critique.

i think people love to critique things because it gives off the aire that you're a "real thinker" lol. most people hate to just leave a 1 line post saying "good work" because it doesn't give them a chance to show off that they know something. People think saying "good job" puts them in a lower position. If they can critique something it makes them seem the superior.

Well it's BS isn't it.

Rob has a vision of his singing it's clear by his posts. And he knows exactly what where he wants to go and how he wants to achieve it.

When you know exactly what you want to be and figure out how to achieve it, you reach a point where you know exactly if someone's critique is on par with your vision or not. Most of the time, it's just people waffling the first 2 seconds that came into their mind. It has no relevance.

outside of technique it's just opinion.

and you will only ever agree to someone's opinion if it resonates with where you want to go. ever hear someone go "purple will suit that better" and you respond with "yeah you're right!!" it's not because that person is a genius, it's because his suggestion was on the same direction as to where you wanted to go but you didn't realize it.

There are many great singers we don't like due to their style just not being "for us". Barbara Streisand, I won't deny her vocal ability, but I have no interest in her music or singing. It doesn't mean she's bad, it means her style isn't my thing. IF she posted a song of hers here I wouldn't come on and go "yeah, that song didn't have any feeling in it". bullsh!t. what exactly am i offering there? nothing.

yes this is a critique forum but we have to realize that our critique doesn't have to be accepted and it doesn't make that person arrogant. that person can just as easily go "nope i think what you said is bs and i'm not taking that on board". it doesn't mean he's "taking it personally".

I can sing very very low because I'm a baritone but I'm not interested in doing stupid bass notes. I had someone "giving me suggestions" as to why i don't work my voice low. Simply I said I have no interest in singing that low and I've never ever heard a song outside of death metal where someone was singing B2's.

He said "but you will waste your natural ability" WHo cares? I don't LOL. I'm interested in High chesty belting, it's clear he cares more about low notes but he was pushing his ideal. it's an example of just beacuse you have a suggestion don't assume it fits in with the persons vision.

No one has to take your opinions. It doens't mean you can't have them and express them but it doesn't mean they have to take them.

Apart from technical technique, everything else is opinion, and it's clear his technique was good because he hit all the notes and didn't choke himself.

And to that person that was pointing out 0.005 second little tiny pitch issues. okay to you it may be a big deal, but to rob and just about anyone else it isn't. But I want to say this, why is there a separate standard? How come when we hear legends like Marvin Gaye or Michael Jackson not nailing eveyr single pitch we don't care? You mention all the tiny nuances MJ does and you're spot on. But he's not always 100% on pitch but I'm sure you dont' care, and I certainly don't. And dont' forget anyway MJ has been singing for over 30 years professionally.

How come when a drummer isn't spot on to a metronome no one cares? Because there's a point of diminshed returns where we have to realize we cannot be 100% so let's get the big things spot on before we worry about the tinier things. The drummer needs to be relatively as close as possible but when he gets into the groove and gets lost in the emotion he's going to lose some of his techincal skill IN EXCHANGE for his passion. As long as technique is there 70% to hold it together the rest can be played with in my opinion. If you disagree then once again it's not for you!!

At what point is it that you put on your "forum hat" and it becomes an issue? and if you do in fact care about the little tiny mistakes that legends make then that's laughable to me because after all we're human. There is a point of diminshed returns.

People need role models and mentors not naysayers and correctors. And Robert already has those people as he has pointed out.

Once again, you can offer critique but it doens't mean he has to take it.

Thanks Phil, I appreciate your support. I like how you say it like it is and are not afraid to smack people with you insights. I have viewed some of your videos and I like the passion. I recognize the frustration you feel sometimes as well, as a voice coach in a world where so many people just don't understand whats going on for real. I also liked your singing on your videos. I think you have a bright future Phil.. thanks for your support.

I like this point a lot...

why is there a separate standard? How come when we hear legends like Marvin Gaye or Michael Jackson not nailing eveyr single pitch we don't care?

Its so true... if your a mega super star, you get a free pass... if your just an average guy working just as hard and performing just as well, you get ripped and nit picked by Monday Morning Quaterbacks... At some point, critiques really can just be ridiculous nit picks... people need to be able to recognize when something is at 90% or not and then just let it be... refrain from nit picking until they step up and make a contribution themselves... thats the "rub" that drives me ape shit.

[Opaa]

"And to that person that was pointing out 0.005 second little tiny pitch issues. okay to you it may be a big deal, but to rob and just about anyone else it isn't."

I just want to say that just as much as it is some of your opinions that pitchiness in some performances do not matter and do not bother you, somebody elses opinion may be that the same pitchiness matters and distracts or irritates him. Both are just opinions as far as I see and if one should be allowed to be expressed, so should the other. Clearly it is okay in this thread to say that the pitchiness doesn't matter because majority seems to agree with that, but the other point is still there and it is someones opinion. Is it okay to say that too? And I don't think that the person expressing an opinion needs to think about wether others agree or not or wether it is a big deal to others or not. He is simply stating his own opinion as it is and the rest is none of his business. Others take it the way they choose to.

[Manolito Mystiq]

Most of the posts in this thread are pretty ridiculous. I feel that most people only critique things because it's a "critique forum" so they just have to spout off anything that comes to mind. "oh i didn't feel it" what kind of comment is that.

Most of the "critique" here is people confusing their opinion with fact. especially posts like MDEW's where he said it lacked feel or whatever it was. He's saying it like it's a fact. It's opinion. just because you don't feel something doesn't mean it lacked feel, because many others may definitely "feel it". Points like that have no substance. What is that type of critique. whatever man. pop those comments in the bin LOL!

That’s how you perceive it, because you start your post saying: “Most of the posts in this thread are pretty ridiculous”. Obviously that is your opinion, but you are here as well, stating it as fact. Obviously one can state everything it’s her or his opinion about what she or he is about to say. We don’t do that, because we don’t talk like that. There, I said “we” as if we all don’t talk like that, why I meant to give a point in general writing. Obviously—at least to me (to make it clear that this is an opinion as well)—it was MDEW’s opinion, just as your points were yours and my points were mine.

It's like those food critiques that go into 3 star michelin restaurants and are like "that sauce was too thick" LOL so there's a factual measurement of what "too thick" is now? it's your opinion and the bottom line is, unless he cares about your opinion then it's meaningless to him.

According to that food critic, to his standards, the sauce was too thick. If someone says, “you’re a good singer,” does that imply there’s a factual measurement of what a good singer is—now? Of course it doesn’t. That someone is just expressing her/his opinion of what a good singer is and saying to you that you fall into that level to her/him.

Rob has a vision of his singing it's clear by his posts. And he knows exactly what where he wants to go and how he wants to achieve it.

When you know exactly what you want to be and figure out how to achieve it, you reach a point where you know exactly if someone's critique is on par with your vision or not. Most of the time, it's just people waffling the first 2 seconds that came into their mind. It has no relevance.

Here, this is all you stating it as a fact. I’m not disagreeing. I just wanted to show you that to me your first argument made no sense, since you’re doing it yourself.

There are many great singers we don't like due to their style just not being "for us". Barbara Streisand, I won't deny her vocal ability, but I have no interest in her music or singing. It doesn't mean she's bad, it means her style isn't my thing. IF she posted a song of hers here I wouldn't come on and go "yeah, that song didn't have any feeling in it". bullsh!t. what exactly am i offering there? nothing.

You just said that “outside of technique it's just opinion.” What is wrong in sensing no emotion from an otherwise technically good to great singer, resulting the listener to say, “there is no feeling in it” (again clearly pointing out that it is the listener’s opinion)? Joey Tempest (to me) is an amazing technical powerful one-of-a-kind singer, but a ballad like Carrie, to me doesn’t have any feeling in it. To others it might. So what?

Apart from technical technique, everything else is opinion, and it's clear his technique was good because he hit all the notes and didn't choke himself.

To me, the second run of the crying/screaming, as pointed out earlier had some intonation problems. Indeed, just a detail of the whole singing, but everything counts. Besides, it is (or TO ME, it is) part of the most crucial part of the whole song. It repeats 3 times throughout the whole song. I just pointed out that I felt that could be better and that to my experience and views he didn’t have full control at those parts.

And to that person that was pointing out 0.005 second little tiny pitch issues. okay to you it may be a big deal, but to rob and just about anyone else it isn't. But I want to say this, why is there a separate standard? How come when we hear legends like Marvin Gaye or Michael Jackson not nailing eveyr single pitch we don't care? You mention all the tiny nuances MJ does and you're spot on. But he's not always 100% on pitch but I'm sure you dont' care, and I certainly don't. And dont' forget anyway MJ has been singing for over 30 years professionally.

You’re not sure I care. How would you know? I have a hard time listening to Dream Theater’s live performances, because to me, James LaBrie seems like he has a hard time. I found it pitiful that a song like, One Last Time, he’s going flat in pitch at the chorus (fact), and not even a bit (opinion).

Don’t you want to aim to be pretty much on pitch all the time? Now, Robert stated that it was his intention to get out of key. Fair enough. If it wasn’t, this would’ve been an issue to work on.

And Gilad noticed it too, as well as a singer I know from the Netherlands. Okay, so that only makes 3. To you, about anyone else doesn’t care. Well, I’d say that (to me,) it’s more than you think.

How come when a drummer isn't spot on to a metronome no one cares? Because there's a point of diminshed returns where we have to realize we cannot be 100% so let's get the big things spot on before we worry about the tinier things. The drummer needs to be relatively as close as possible but when he gets into the groove and gets lost in the emotion he's going to lose some of his techincal skill IN EXCHANGE for his passion. As long as technique is there 70% to hold it together the rest can be played with in my opinion. If you disagree then once again it's not for you!!

Are you a drummer? I’ve studied flamenco guitar, where we as guitarists are the main beat, where it is of utmost importance to be spot on, so we can accompany both the dancers as well as the singers accordingly. I’d say it depends on genre. A progressive metal band like Meshuggah would most definitely care if the drummer isn’t spot on, where a Schübert piece is more organically flowing towards the singer’s needs. And yes, we are human beings, we make mistakes. We always have margins of error. It matters how high we allow them to be. I’d like mine to be lower than yours, that’s all.

At what point is it that you put on your "forum hat" and it becomes an issue? and if you do in fact care about the little tiny mistakes that legends make then that's laughable to me because after all we're human. There is a point of diminshed returns.

People need role models and mentors not naysayers and correctors. And Robert already has those people as he has pointed out.

Once again, you can offer critique but it doens't mean he has to take it.

This is a “Review & Critique My Singing” forum (to me, it could as well be called “Review My Singing”, though). I reviewed performances to what I think is good what I think could improve. Obviously, the person in question doesn’t have to take it. But then, why post it here in the first place?

[Robert Lunte]

Manny, Opaa... I refer you to the challenge post. At this point, you have expressed your "critique", thank you. Now turn your attention to the challenge post... Amazing, isn't it Phil? :rolleyes:

[Manolito Mystiq]

I wasn’t critiquing you any more, Robert. I was replying to Phil, just as you replied to him. No need to roll your eyes for it.

[Robert Lunte]

:rolleyes: :cool: Have a great day Manny... say hi to those sexy Dutch girls over there... your fine.

[Keith]

This thread blows my mind. It has been taken to a whole new level of ridiculous. Please everyone, record your version so we can rip each others versions apart, instead of just supplying encouragement and praise. And no, I don't think that if you hear something negative you should keep it to yourself.. I mean If you are going to go through the time and trouble to listen to the whole song and make a small (in this case microscopic) list of what you dislike, supplement that list with stuff ya do like, and then move on with your lives! It is important for singers (and coaches) to hear about the stuff they did well. We all know this. Supplying only negative feedback really hinders progress.