Bridging and fatigue

[g_keyes]

I have been studying vocal for a long time now and I still can't sing past Eb above middle C without getting tired very quickly. I am your average male tenor - my first bridge is E, F, F#.

I have been studying SLS for five years, before that I did the whole SS thing, before that I did traditional Bel Canto for a year, but I still can't get through any of my bridges. SLS did help me to stop dragging chest up, and to figure out the difference between head voice and falsetto, but they put such an emphasis on closure that now I either squeeze to get a mix or just sing in an unusable light phonation. So now I have other problems, and after years of training I still can't sing a simple pop song.

Are there any books or methods that I can look into that can help get me through this brick wall? I need to find another teacher but I want to make sure that I don't spend another five years doing something that won't help me get to where I need to be. I feel like I've tried everything.

Thanks!

[Owen Korzec]

Pretty much anything non-SLS should do the trick.

The most widely praised methods on here seem to be TVS, CVT, and KTVA.

[D.Starr]

Ain't nothing wrong with SLS. MJ turned out pretty well, as well as a lot of Motown singers.

I think it's how you progress with it. If you're not taking 1-1 lessons then you really stay where you are.

Phil moufarrege told me SLS teach foundations to get rid of tension and ease things up. Like a crutch. You then have to take what you have learnt and put it into singing. Bring more chest into it. Mess around with it.

Any program will help. You have to learn the coordination.

[Danielformica]

There is nothing wrong with sls its a great foundation. Its just about understanding whatever program you choose.

the FORMICADO method is pretty cool to:)

[eggplantbren]

I had a similar experience, but of course that doesn't mean SLS experiences always go this way.

If it's been a year and you haven't made significant progress towards your goals, try something else.

[Felipe Carvalho]

sorry to hear that. Wasting time is frustrating.

Next teacher you seek, make sure that there is a solid plan and that the person can use his/her voice in a way that you would like for yourself.

In my experience, if I had this in mind when I began, would have saved me a lot of time.

[Danielformica]

Any of the so called methods are fine it's important that you yourself really understand what you are doing. So you find the release and then you lean into it that's it, case closed. If you can't find the release you go lighter less intense once you find it you become a little more intense and voila fullvoice. Phil basically said the same thing.

Post yourself doing some scales or singing and you have many people here to help.

You'll be fine

[MDEW]

This is Robert Lunte. The founder of this forum. This video is the one that really helped me.

Regardless of how you state it or how you achieve it there is a shift that needs to happen. Whether it be thinning of the vocal folds or shift in resonance or both.

When you get to the place that it starts getting harder to procede lighten a little. Just enough for that shift to happen. This is to break old habits.

After a while things will smooth out and you will be able to shift without lightening anything.

[eggplantbren]

In my uninformed opinion, much of the trouble that SLS students often have is singing too timidly and gently, i.e. without enough energy. Telling them that they have to "thin" or "lighten" something in order to go higher can be counterproductive. IMO the most important thing for singing higher is support and energy.

But it depends on the individual what their particular issues are.

[g_keyes]

Thanks everyone, this is all really helpful, I'm glad I found this forum!

[musicavenger27]

If Eb is hard (in the afternoon, after you've been awake for over 6 hours) you should seriously consider changing your fach to baritone.

[Owen Korzec]

If Eb is hard (in the afternoon, after you've been awake for over 6 hours) you should seriously consider changing your fach to baritone.

Good point actually. Or even bass.

But you can't know for sure until you train it fully though. Chances are this guy has not done anything to extend his upper chest voice and is just letting it wither away...I've been in that position, I remember a time where I was trying to kind of force an permanent early bridge (terrible idea), and Eb4 did become hard. When you train like that, you definitely lose range, so it can seem like your fach is lower, but the reality is you're just not working out your chest voice to its fullest. I can now go up to Ab4 in chest voice most of the time, since I practice belting a lot more.

[MBacon3]

Hey G - Owen and Musicavenger make great points.

Many tenors begin covering around Eb/E and depending on the type of tenor, my understanding is that they focus on sensations or ping in the sinuses and infront of the mask, while also getting in tune with a sense of backspace. Something that has helped me with backspace is to breathe in a surprised breath and focus on the sensation of the air moving in and your soft pallete rising. This gives the sensation of yawning and helps relax into your bridge.

However, unless the color of your voice is very different, I don't think you should be tiring out on Eb. You must either be a lower part, or have excess tension because I am a Baritone and I can sing an F from breakfast till dawn. However, I have never heard you before and have no idea how/what you sing - these are just my thoughts from my practice. When you do it with less tension, it will sound really wussy and bad in your ears - which is something I'm getting used to - but the proper resonance space will cause the sound to carry.

[Danielformica]

Just to clarify G keyes are you an opera singer or pop/rock etc..if you are a pop guy dont worry about tenor this baritone that stuff.

It doesnt matter unless you are studying to be a classical or choral artist. All in all you should sing the Eb on a lower intensity (falsetto) and a higher intensity fullvoice that way you do it both ways.

[g_keyes]

I'll post some stuff as Daniel said as I can see how it's hard to comment without hearing me. I can get to an Eb consistently but I tire attempting anything higher probably for many reason that can't be answered without hearing/seeing me. The point though, regardless or tenor or baritone, is that I have a chest range, a huge gap, and a head voice. My voice isn't connected and subsequently my range is pretty small. It's a common problem that many methods deal with.

I know people who have made incredible gains with sls, so I don't mean to say that it is crap, but it didn't work for me even after studying with many teachers, some of them very high up. The SLS focus is on a stable larynx and cord closure. Bel Canto focuses on bringing head voice down and pure vowels (I only did bel canto for a year so I may be way over simplifying). I'm sure all of these things are good but every student is different so universal rules won't always work. I'm trying to branch out and find other ways to deal with bridging through reading, vids, methods, whatever. So if there is anything that has worked for any of you please post!

There are some really good points here already and it's only been a few days, so I'm already on a better path, so thanks again for all the comments.

[breakin]

Same story for me. If you are unlucky and have no training even tenors might be stuck around Eb4. For me it was that I was pushing and that I had almost no twang, as well as no training. Needed some tools! Now I can belt (CVT overdrive) to A4/Bb4 when doing scales and such, might use it in a song too but it is a little hit/miss. I might still be bariton material, who knows, but at least the Eb4 road block could be removed!

[Owen Korzec]

Exactly. It's not that my Ab4 is usable for everything, but it's there, and having it there makes singing Eb4 a joke...in a way the idea is to kind of provide headroom. You never want to be hitting a ceiling in your range unless the artistic intent is to sound pushy

[VideoHere]

g-keyes....i'm sorry but respectfully it's kind of hard to believe you did all this studying with top notch teachers and hard work and you are still unable to bridge......

[Owen Korzec]

g-keyes....i'm sorry but respectfully it's kind of hard to believe you did all this studying with top notch teachers and hard work and you are still unable to bridge......

It's easy to believe if you factor in that the teacher is not in directly control of how a student trains. They are only a guiding force. If the students doesn't listen, doesn't work hard enough, doesn't work smart enough, etc. anything can happen and they can get nowhere.

To add to this, as one who also personally struggles with bridging, I really feel that most vocal teachers don't know how to teach it. It is IMO the toughest concept of vocal technique to grasp. I feel like until someone can explain the exact technical process to me and the most efficient way to train it, it's going to just continue to take a really long time to figure out.

And to add to that, we have to ask, what the heck is bridging in the first place? To some it is just a resonance adjustment. To some it is a laryngeal adjustment. To some it is both. To some, it is merely the act of not flipping too abruptly.

[VideoHere]

maybe the real issue is the concept itself...a bridge......

if i were a teacher, i truly feel (nowadays) i could teach someone to do it.

but it's a matter of acceptance....accepting all the things we talk about here all the time....

practice (when you can sound like crap), and above all, patience.

i remember when a c5 felt like it was nowhere to be found in my voice...i'd go home at night and say how the f&%k am i ever going to figure this out........forget singing a song with one, just vocalizing to one.

but i never stopped a night without driving up towards one (strain and all) sounded like crap....but i just kept going there, and going towards it, and going towards it while i supported and narrowed the vowel...

and then when i least expected it, the sucker revealed itself to me...and i'm simplifying things a bit, but you get the idea...

the real happiness comes when you're doing scales without a piano....you "feel like" you're singing a powerful c5 and you check on the virtual piano, and it's a g5, full voice!!

and it's like how the f&^k did that happen ....lol!!!

then you start to figure it out....

stay with it!!

[eggplantbren]

I don't doubt g_keyes's experience at all, it was the same for me. I practiced often and in the way my teachers suggested, and made no progress whatsoever for years. Here is some stuff I wish someone had told me back then.

* There are different ways to extend the range, and they have different sounds. Ultimately it's a choice which way you want to do it. If you learn the different ways instead of just one, then you can mix and match the approaches depending on the song (and sometimes you can do it different ways within the one song)

* There are two kinds of pure head voice/falsetto (I am referring to flageolet). One can be swelled (made louder) into a more "full voice" sound, and the other can't. I practiced SLS long scales in flageolet for years but could never "lean into it and find the mix" like my teachers said, because I was in flageolet and had no support.

* Support is important and is a pretty specific set of motions. When you learn how to do it, it helps a lot. If you try something that you think is support and it doesn't help, it's probably not support.

* Don't be afraid of being fairly loud. As long as your throat feels okay you're fine

* Singing high in a "full voice" way feels (subjectively) more like chest voice than falsetto, at least to some people (I fall into that category).

I made a similar post in the CVT forum too, but in that language. http://completevocalinstitute.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10300

[VideoHere]

no, after 1 year i'd be asking myself what's in my way......what is keeping me from going up through the passaggio....

not 5 years later...with all of these high level teachers....something is missing here...maybe he didn't do any homework?

maybe it's not physical..(respectfully) it could be a mental barrier keyes.

[g_keyes]

g-keyes....i'm sorry but respectfully it's kind of hard to believe you did all this studying with top notch teachers and hard work and you are still unable to bridge......

You're telling me! lol, that's exactly how I feel. I agree with a couple of your points (ie. maybe it's a mental block?) but I can tell you that hard work and practice are not what I have been lacking. Was I working smart? Good question, I have no idea, that why I'm here. Some teachers, and I found this was more so the case with the high up ones, believe more in the method than the student. So if progress isn't happening, or it is but very slowly, then it must be the student's fault, they mustn't be practicing. It's sort of like the televangelist saying they can make the person in the wheelchair walk....oh, you still can't walk? Then you didn't have faith. I think a good teacher should be able to say "this isn't working? hmmm then WE'RE doing something wrong."

I know a couple guys who got bridging down in a year, if you are one of them you are incredibly lucky it takes most guys a lot longer. I did make some progress in other areas of singing, but with bridging I'm just stuck.

I've probably put too much emphasis on doing exactly what the teacher said and nothing else, as opposed to figuring it out on my own and using the teacher for guidance. So that's what I'm trying to do now, research and understand the mechanics in a way that makes sense to me so that I can somehow figure it all out.

[g_keyes]

Chances are this guy has not done anything to extend his upper chest voice and is just letting it wither away...I've been in that position, I remember a time where I was trying to kind of force an permanent early bridge (terrible idea), and Eb4 did become hard. When you train like that, you definitely lose range.

Yes, I've been taught to not drag chest voice up, bridge early, and bring head voice down. I'll have to look into CVT overdrive a bit, I don't know anything about it.

[Owen Korzec]

I don't want to give the impression that bridging early is a wrong or faulty approach. It's perfectly fine and healthy and sounds great when executed well. All I'm saying is that if you ONLY train that way, higher notes in full voice become harder...not because you are training a lighter approach, but because you are NOT training a heavier approach too. IME, whatever you don't train, tends to disappear.