GGGABRIEL Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hello friends, I've read a lot through the forums, and I cant get to understand it completely. I tried everything, filled my lungs down deep, expanded my belly naturally (not forcing it) I clamped my low abdominals, opened my ribs and sternum, tried to hold them opened as I sing. I left my abdominals loose and also pushed them in. (not all togheter haha, I'm just counting my attempts) Sylvester Stallone couldnt have made more strenght than I did with my abs/ribs. Either way, if I , for example , choose to blow air out, my lungs empty at the same rate. No matter what I do there's nothing stopping air from rushing out, no matter how tense do I keep sternum/back ribs opened or all of the above nothing grabs and holds the diaphragm I know we try not to blow air out, on the contrary, I only do it just to probe myself if any muscle is holding back the diaphragm. And I certainly am not getting it. I feel like, the only time I hold air inside or get that inspiration feeling that is required is due to my vocal folds closing. So I beg, could you please explain it again ? I'm gonna ask this to my singing teacher next class, but I wanted to know your opinión, because I found people with a lot of knowledge here, excellent posts you have. Greeting from Argentina! Gabriel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoney Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 You probably won't take my advice, but here it is: sing loud and strong until you figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDEW Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 :o When someone startles you and you take that big gasp of air in and you hesitate for a few seconds, that is your diaphragm holding the air back. Or when you remember something that you want to tell someone, you take in a gasp of air, pause and say "Oh! By the way". That pause is your diaphagm holding air back. Start taking a long breath but pause before you finish the breath and then continue the breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 thank you Lord/ Mdew much appreciatted, I'll take the advices , try and let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowboCaup Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I kind of agree with Lord Adon, sing loud and strong, but keep it relaxed. Think medium volume (loud but not shouty), making sure the sound is clear and easy. Try ringing out a note as steady as you can and for as long as you can, your body has no choice but to support it and will adapt automatically. Remember to do it relaxed though, if you can't keep relaxed then don't try it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoney Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I disagree Rowbo... It may not work for you, but before I figured it out I would sing about as loud as you can possibly get. Burnt my voice out once or twice accidentally, but I learned eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hello friends, I've read a lot through the forums, and I cant get to understand it completely. I tried everything, filled my lungs down deep, expanded my belly naturally (not forcing it) I clamped my low abdominals, opened my ribs and sternum, tried to hold them opened as I sing. I left my abdominals loose and also pushed them in. (not all togheter haha, I'm just counting my attempts) Sylvester Stallone couldnt have made more strenght than I did with my abs/ribs. Either way, if I , for example , choose to blow air out, my lungs empty at the same rate. No matter what I do there's nothing stopping air from rushing out, no matter how tense do I keep sternum/back ribs opened or all of the above nothing grabs and holds the diaphragm I know we try not to blow air out, on the contrary, I only do it just to probe myself if any muscle is holding back the diaphragm. And I certainly am not getting it. I feel like, the only time I hold air inside or get that inspiration feeling that is required is due to my vocal folds closing. So I beg, could you please explain it again ? I'm gonna ask this to my singing teacher next class, but I wanted to know your opinión, because I found people with a lot of knowledge here, excellent posts you have. Greeting from Argentina! Gabriel So, go ahead and close your vocal folds. If you didn't already know, the truth is, that is really what pretty much all great singers are doing. Most of them are supporting too. But any kind of support is built underneath that foundation. Whether it's trained in that sequence or not, it just won't quite work if you're breathy. If you are too breathy you will always lose more air than you need to. Also, remember: -Support is movement, that means some of the support muscles must move as you change pitch or vowel or sustain a note etc. There is no one magical position that works for everything -Just because you contract the muscles doesn't necessarily mean it's regulating the air. You need to contract the muscles in a specific way that causes the desired effect on the breathing. I am still figuring out support myself, so take this all with a grain of salt. But I'm pretty certain I know what it's not, from when I have tried and failed with it. It's not a magical stationary configuration that works for everything, and it's not as simple as just contracting muscles. It's also no substitute for the importance of cord closure. Unless you want an airy sound. But the issue of air escaping too quickly is more of an issue of cord closure, not support. Support is more about carefully controlling the air pressure beneath the vocal folds, called the subglottal pressure. And the amount of that pressure you will need depends on the vowel, pitch, and intensity. And that's where I think breath management is often a better term to describe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Very simple laugh naturally. Put your fingers right underneath where the ribs meet in the center of your chest top of stomach (watch my suppprt vid)and also sides of your back above your love handles. Laugh feel that push out that is support. Breathe low like filling a water glass with water bottom up an then laugh. Then make a tone with the laugh bingo support. Then sing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Thank you so much guys I will definitely try these advices and revert :cool:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gina Ellen Vocalist Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Agree with what everyone has said here. Also, you say you have a breathy tone .... work on that too, Even with all the support in the world, If you have a breathy tone, you'll just loose the air. Work on both, they go hand in hand with making a more efficiant singing tone. Also, don't think it's going to be a light bulb moment 'ah, i've got support now'. It usually takes time to build up co-ordination, just see it as a working progress and take note of the small improvements :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 22, 2013 Author Share Posted July 22, 2013 Thank you Gina, I always evaded closing the chords too much because I didnt want to squeeze, but like you said and Owen too, I'll work on that as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 real short....an exercise i swear by to help develop strength and get control over exhalation..... take in a deep low breath (do not hold it at the top of the inhale)...immediately let it out as slow as possible between the 2 front upper teeth while keeping the back and sides of you expanded. try for 10 seconds then as you become stronger, go and add a second to get to 30 or more. keep the throat and vocal folds relaxed. some call it the leaky tire.....some think it's overkill..i think it works real well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 Thankyou Videohere, I've been doing that exercise, and I had no problems, I can feel a Little stream of air slowly going away for 35 seconds now. This exercise also complies with all the other advices I've been given (navel and back sides stay outwards) - Should I use only this Little stream of air to sing? , or this exercise is just to work out the muscles? In case this stream is all it takes to sing: I dont know how can I set my chords in motion exhaling so little air, I tried but volumen is too low. Way too low. (and I think I go into falsetto in the whole register) --- If I take both things separately , breathing and singing. Everything is ok. But whenever I have to make a note it calls for a lot of air, nowhere close to the gentle stream of the exercise. I think for now I'll just work on my chords closure, and relation between singing and breathing. Have to find a way of making a reasonable volumen and c. closure without the need of too much air Thank you so much for your time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Gabriel, you need more air than that for singing. It's just an exercise. However, you should not really be leaking out much more air than that. When you sing, you use quite a bit of air but it all gets converted to sound so that if you put your hand in front of your mouth, you shouldn't feel any air blowing, just warmth. So, of course you need quite a bit of air so you are not in falsetto, but that's just below the vocal folds. Above them...what comes out of the mouth, should be very little, as most of it should be converted into sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 Thank you Owen , that is very clear now, pressure must be sub glottal, only achieved by breath support, I'll have to work in the coordination between subg. pressure and chord closure (but keeping in mind to relax the throat as much as possible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Be careful, not TOO much subglottal pressure though, and not too little...just the right amount. And you find that mostly through experimentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 the leaky tire is so beneficial. first, it strengthens the muscles, and it teaches the body to retard exhalation, to dynamically oppose the rise of the diaphragm which helps with maintaining subglottal pressure. the more experienced you get, you find just how little air, how surprisingly little air is actually needed to sing... and really powerfully....people don't always realize that...if you take in too much you have problems..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Breathe in by relaxing the abs. Control the exhale. Sometimes this means slowing it down, other times, it means giving it a push. Breath support for singing is mobile and agile, always in flux, always in motion. It is a physical thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGGABRIEL Posted July 24, 2013 Author Share Posted July 24, 2013 I been studying and watching alot of videos these days along with your advices. I can feel how my body holds the air for a long time now Now I think that , in order to harvest the goals of breath support, one must deeply understand and handle the larynx mechanics. (if I keep pushing to reach higher, I'm being "anti-support" I guess) So I need to make notes happen with the least air posible , I think that will be combining head and chest voice properly, I hope so!! Thank you, Cant tell you how much I appreciatte your feedbacks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 gg, just remember there's a difference between holding back the air when you sing (using your support muscles) and just holding your breath.... you really don't want to literally hold your breath to sing..as soon as you inhale you still need to expel at a controlled rate. that's why when i do my leaky tire, i talk so that the support muscles are holding back the air, not my vocal folds. if the vocal folds are acting like a cap, all you're going to do is bind up with tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 that's why when i do my leaky tire, i talk so that the support muscles are holding back the air, not my vocal folds. if the vocal folds are acting like a cap, all you're going to do is bind up with tension. So eloquent. Perfect Bob, just perfect. There are times when I truly think we are thinking the same exact thought. Amen, brother from the Northeast. I call you brother. My real brother, Slstone, is in the New England area. But we were both born in California. And I have stayed in Texas since we moved here in 1974. It's complicated, I guess. Or is it? I can hear that Texas twang in my voice, at times. You have heard me speak in our phone conversations. Can you hear it in my speaking voice? (I know that means going back a year or so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggplantbren Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Support is never a push unless your lungs are way closer to empty than they should ever be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Korzec Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Support is never a push unless your lungs are way closer to empty than they should ever be. I want to say...never say never... Also depends on your perception of a push. I think often feel like I am pushing out air when in reality I am still holding it back some. It's like, where do you draw the line between pushing and holding back? A typical controlled elastic recoil can be perceived as a push by some singers just because the air isn't being hold back to the extreme level they may be used to. And let's not forget...technically, you are always exhaling which is, objectively and if isolated from the complex sensations of human physiology, closer to the action of pushing than holding back. Conceptually, holding air back could be interpretted as inhalation or holding your breath. Holding it back is just the sensation. And sensations are subjective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggplantbren Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I agree with most of what you just said. The main point I was trying to convey is that support requires some (moderate) degree of strength and effort, but what happens to the air is nothing like what would happen if you applied that same amount of strength and effort to the task of exhaling forcefully. My subjective perception of support is that I think "sing a loud note with a lot of effort" (if that's what I'm trying to do) and then I consciously do various motions in my torso that make the reality a controlled exhalation and not a bombardment of the vocal folds. I hope that makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 some songs require a punchy intense sound and if you can't punch with a control to it, you will simply blow apart the folds (crack) or just bind up. foreigner's "urgent" is the perfect example of this. it took me a while to get the mechanics of that song down. the physical stamina had to be built up. it still takes a lot out of me to sing this, with this kind of intensity is a bitch. and with that said, let's all enjoy a little lou.....lol!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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