Controlling air with throat vs diaphragm. Support?

[nariza77]

So I've read from another post that the diaphragm holding back air is like the pause after a long breath. When singing, how do you tell if it is the diaphragm controlling the air as opposed to the throat? I feel like it is always my throat that ends up controlling the air when singing instead of the diaphragm even though I try to memorize the "pause" feel. I've also read that you can lie down on your back and lift your legs up while singing to engage the diaphragm. Are there some exercises to help me distinguish them so that I can sing with proper breath support?

[eggplantbren]

Support isn't a locked thing. As you sing and your lungs get more empty, your muscles need to move into a new position or the support won't continue. When you breath in everything expands. When you sing you should pull in your abdomen (near your navel), which kinda feels like trying to fit into tight pants. But the part just above that, just below your bottom ribs, should go out, not in. Support is a gradual motion, not something you fix in place.

[Owen Korzec]

What egg said.

And keep in mind nariza the muscles of the larynx (what people colloquially call the "throat") still have to be engaged in order to bring the vocal folds together and produce sound. You just don't want them to be the main thing controlling the air. Does that makes sense?

[VideoHere]

if the throat gets involved the sound will suffer. when support is properly engaged the throat area is free and unencumbered by tension.

the next time to simply speak to someone, keep your back and sides (comfortably) expanded during that time. if you find you can speak clearly with no sense of a grunt, or a clench in the throat that's a good indication you are speaking with support.

[ronws]

if the throat gets involved the sound will suffer. when support is properly engaged the throat area is free and unencumbered by tension.

Amen, brother Bob.

[ronws]

Another thought from opera singer Lois Alba. Let the larynx decide what the rest of the body is doing. Point being, let mobility in the larynx define what your "support" and "resonance" is doing.

Ffrangcon-Davies - "When I sing, I feel as if I have not throat, at all."

[Danielformica]

if the throat gets involved the sound will suffer. when support is properly engaged the throat area is free and unencumbered by tension.

the next time to simply speak to someone, keep your back and sides (comfortably) expanded during that time. if you find you can speak clearly with no sense of a grunt, or a clench in the throat that's a good indication you are speaking with support.

Good for you bob. You didn't tell him to act like he is pooping. You are comin along!!!

[Keith]

I love you guys. Now everyone.. Go poop!

[VideoHere]

lol!!! i am a firm believer in support and all its levels. and i'll still contend that some of those levels are physically demanding if you aren't used to it.

[ronws]

I love you guys. Now everyone.. Go poop!

I just did. But I should have gone to the restroom, first. :D

[Adolph Namlik]

I just did. But I should have gone to the restroom, first.

Whatever would we do without your humor, Ron ??? That's HILARIOUS !!!

ronws >> Singer, guitarist, electrician, COMEDIAN !!! :lol::lol:

[ronws]

thankyuoverymuch. I'm here all week!

Say hello the attendants and try the clam chowder.

That's two shows a night, two shows.

[Willise]

What egg said.

And keep in mind nariza the muscles of the larynx (what people colloquially call the "throat") still have to be engaged in order to bring the vocal folds together and produce sound. You just don't want them to be the main thing controlling the air. Does that makes sense?

if the throat gets involved the sound will suffer. when support is properly engaged the throat area is free and unencumbered by tension.

You both seem to be very knowledgeable on this subject, but also seem to contradict each other here.

My layman understanding is that the vocal cords need to close for higher pitch. Do the cords stay closed naturally unless forced open by air? If so, then I can see the argument for keeping the throat relaxed and allowing the cords to stay closed by themselves. However, if the cords are open by design, then we need to engage muscles to force them to close. I guess a third possibility is to allow the airflow between the cords to pull them together, like the Bernoulli principle.

I have a show with the band tonight - maybe I'll try some of these ideas without any practice! LOL:D

[D.Starr]

What I've always wondered is, if you train this type of "pooping" support could you not end up with a hernia? Piles? Pooping on stage?

[Sethis21]

My layman understanding is that the vocal cords need to close for higher pitch. Do the cords stay closed naturally unless forced open by air? If so, then I can see the argument for keeping the throat relaxed and allowing the cords to stay closed by themselves. However, if the cords are open by design, then we need to engage muscles to force them to close. I guess a third possibility is to allow the airflow between the cords to pull them together, like the Bernoulli principle.

I have a show with the band tonight - maybe I'll try some of these ideas without any practice! LOL:D

Haha you're probably overthinking this. It's way more simple. The way I see it, and what the other guys probably also wanted to tell you, is that you need to need to be able to control the airflow by only manipulating the cords themselves and not using any unnecessary muscles around them. You have to isolate them. That doesn't mean you don't have to use diaphragmatic support too. It's not a matter of x vs y, they work together.

[Owen Korzec]

Willise, Bob and I aren't contradicting each other I don't think. I am talking about the mere action of closing the vocal folds so you can actually make sound. With no cord closure there is no sound, end of debate. And you need enough of that to produce a full sound. Bob is talking about not using excess squeeze on top of that or unnecessary constriction in the neck and stuff like that.

And the vocal folds are open by design. Otherwise you couldn't breathe. But you also don't really have to FORCE them to close. When you sing they close, simple as that. If they don't close you're not singing. But sometimes they close too much or not enough depending on the singer. You want them to close just the right amount and apply just right amount of air pressure below them...it's all about balance.

[eggplantbren]

What I've always wondered is, if you train this type of "pooping" support could you not end up with a hernia? Piles? Pooping on stage?

According to the CVT book hernias and prolapsed uteruses are possible if you try to push out with your abdomen with a lot of effort/for a long time. I wouldn't be surprised about the other stuff, people do all sorts of weird stuff when attempting to use "support". :/

[eggplantbren]

There are some kinds of constriction or narrowing that help you sing, like twang, and yes of course your vocal folds come together to produce any sound at all (unless you're grunting like a death metal singer). I don't know what the extra constrictions that are bad actually are, but people often describe a throat squeeze sensation and it can be very tiring. Support is IMO the main ingredient to solving that issue (followed by using the right volume, eg high powerful notes are not quiet!). Solar plexus goes out, abdomen goes in, ribs stay extended. It is a motion not a paused thing. It takes some physical effort too but IMO not a huge amount compared to exercise. If you are doing "something" that feels comparable in effort level to riding a bike uphill or lifting a heavy weight, yet it is not helping your singing, it is not support.

You also don't have to do anything special or think about the Bernoulli effect when singing, if you make a vocal sound at all, that is happening.

[VideoHere]

You both seem to be very knowledgeable on this subject, but also seem to contradict each other here.

My layman understanding is that the vocal cords need to close for higher pitch. Do the cords stay closed naturally unless forced open by air? If so, then I can see the argument for keeping the throat relaxed and allowing the cords to stay closed by themselves. However, if the cords are open by design, then we need to engage muscles to force them to close. I guess a third possibility is to allow the airflow between the cords to pull them together, like the Bernoulli principle.

I have a show with the band tonight - maybe I'll try some of these ideas without any practice! LOL:D

willies,

the vocal folds are pretty small and they have to not only close, but flex (or stretch) to make pitch. the air coming from your lungs also has to move with minimal obstruction..

a tight throat equals a tight sound, an obstruction (such as the tongue getting in the way) blocks air.

you have to learn to isolate the vocal folds from this extraneous tension so they are free to do what they do - make pitch.

when you support the voice air gets "applied" there is a controlled application of air to the vocal folds. if you support poorly, you either under power a note, or you smack air against the vocal folds (uncontrolled exhalation).

the little folds will respond by either blowing apart and air comes rushing through (and you dry them out) or the folds try to contain the air but it's being delivered to them under too much (non-controlled, this is key....non-controlled pressure).

i keep searching for a great analogy for support but the one i like to use is you develop a control of the force of exhalation.

once you are really adept at controlling exhalation a lot of things open up for the singer...things they don't even give support credit for...

like a rich, thick high head tone or cannot distinguish from so called "chest voice". some folks apply a just enough to get the job done, and others use it like a turbo charger....

hope i've helped.