Rusty Cage - End Section Problem

[jonathangraham]

Evening all,

So I was working through Rusty Cage by SG tonight in the 40 mins i had after work lol. and this end section is driving me crazy!!

I never seem to be able to get much power on it. If you were in the room with me you would be able to hear how loud it is when i'm singing, but it just doesnt seem to translate to the mic

https://soundcloud.com/jonathan-graham1-0/rusty-cage-end-section

Do you guys think it is ok sounding, or any tips for improving it?

Many thanks

[Pavloff]

I like the voice, however (in my opinion) the mix a bit unbalanced, that hi-hat seems to be bugging me, it's way off to the left.

[ronws]

It's the mic. Step closer to it. And bring up the vocal track volume but just a sliver.

The singing was fine and I could hear you were resonating well. But the sound recording is heavy on the instrumentation. Trust me, I know, it's a challenge to mix a vocal track against an imported backing track. It's more difficult than just adjusting your voice against a guitar, singing into one mic. For guys like you and me, that's easy, because that is what we do, 98 percent of the time, covering stuff on one acoustic guitar.

Your singing was fine but, like me, your post recording editing skills were hampering the finished product. I only say this because I am king of shooting myself in the foot with recording and editing strategies.

[MDEW]

We have a habit of backing away from the Mic when we are singing high and powerful. To us it seems like we are way too loud so we over compensate. In reality our volume did not increase. Our impression of it did.

[jonathangraham]

Thanks again guys, if it s just a simple case of havng to be coser to the mic i'll kick myself but ill give it another try tonight and compare the results.

Vowel modification in that area is such a tricky thing. Trying to find the right one that will release properly but yet still make 90% of the words understandable and then try to make it sound good too.

Sorry Pavloff, I cant do anything about the hi-hats, it's just a backing track.

[MasterBlaster]

If you want a grittier tone you need to push more and sing louder. Cornell is pushing it to 100%. You sound like you are at about 80%. Make sure you are warmed up real good and push it to the limit and watch the grit come alive.

This guy is giving it a good push.

[gno]

Jonathan - I think you sound really good here. To me you are really close. It is a little "pitchy" - which will improve with practicing this song. And it just needs slight increase of TA or Chest voice or compression, which should also improve with practice. I wouldn't try to force anything or "lean into the voice" too much. It is really subtle. The general tone is already there. I think just practice over a few weeks will give a stronger performance.

[Jugulator]

If you're not satisfied with how much chest you can pull, just pay more attention to the glottal compression. But if I were you I wouldn't change the tone at all cause you sound very good.

[jonathangraham]

Thank you Geno and Jugulator, for your detailed response. I'm really thinking that compression could be the key to this but it just seems to be hard to get the right balance support wise i always end up tensing up in my stomach. when you do this do you fell any sort of gripping sensation near the soft palette?

[Jugulator]

when you do this do you fell any sort of gripping sensation near the soft palette?

No, I don't.

[jonathangraham]

No, I don't.

Can you describe your method for adding grit. Sometimes you really get a Dio vibe on your screams Jugulator . Is this strictly from pushing more air, or are you doing something in the throat? Vocal fry etc?

[ronws]

Actually, about the Chris Cornell thing, I think Jon already sounds like Cornell, without pushing to the limit, or pushing all that hard. Maybe that makes Jon the better or more natural singer, not having to push so hard to have that sound. Then, again, I've not seen or heard Cornell push hard but then, again, I wouldn't know if he was pushing hard.

I think all of this hullabaloo is testament to you, Jon, already sounding like CC, with whatever "push" is going on.

And I agree, we are here to help each other.

You keep doing what you are doing, Jon, which is just fine.

I just want to know how you got your avatar to kind of look like Syd Barrett? Now, there's a mystery.

[gno]

Thank you Geno and Jugulator, for your detailed response. I'm really thinking that compression could be the key to this but it just seems to be hard to get the right balance support wise i always end up tensing up in my stomach. when you do this do you fell any sort of gripping sensation near the soft palette?

No - i don't feel anything like that. Tamplin describes compression well when he says it is a feeling like you are holding your breath. But there is a delicate balance because you can accidentally trade tension for compression, and that is not a good thing.

[napoleonboot]

....

I just want to know how you got your avatar to kind of look like Syd Barrett? Now, there's a mystery.

...

Ron, how did you get your avatar to look like a dog?

[jonathangraham]

Actually, about the Chris Cornell thing, I think Jon already sounds like Cornell, without pushing to the limit, or pushing all that hard. Maybe that makes Jon the better or more natural singer, not having to push so hard to have that sound. Then, again, I've not seen or heard Cornell push hard but then, again, I wouldn't know if he was pushing hard.

I think all of this hullabaloo is testament to you, Jon, already sounding like CC, with whatever "push" is going on.

And I agree, we are here to help each other.

You keep doing what you are doing, Jon, which is just fine.

I just want to know how you got your avatar to kind of look like Syd Barrett? Now, there's a mystery.

Thanks Ron, that's my point really. With the CC thing it's not really my intention even though it is one of his songs. Just as i said in my original post something is just not clicking with it for me and i feel like i hit a brick wall. I'm really just trying to make it sound good but already a few of the tips i have received are giving me some better results, but as Geno said i will have to work a couple of weeks with this to improve, hopfully. As for Syd Barret, i'm not sure Ron too much LSD i geuss

No - i don't feel anything like that. Tamplin describes compression well when he says it is a feeling like you are holding your breath. But there is a delicate balance because you can accidentally trade tension for compression, and that is not a good thing.

I have heard that too, the funny thing is is i feel like i get it sometimes but its just not something I have on call. I think sometimes I'm too busy listing for the sound quality rather than focusing on the feeling and staying relaxed.

Tension in the neck is obviously a big no no but what about in the stomach area, just when applying grit?

Ron, how did you get your avatar to look like a dog?

I've been wondering this for a while too? :lol:

[gno]

Jonathan - Not sure how familiar you are with CVT but they do a great job explaining Distortion and Creak. To produce both these effects they say that more support is required when singing high. But you've got to be careful not to apply too much support. The trick in both of these is to produce without engaging the constrictors unnecessarily. If you use too much support, you can accidentally do what Daniel calls "squeezing the cords". He explains it really well in this video:

[jonathangraham]

Thanks again Geno, I have seen CVT mentioned a few times here on the forum over the years but oddly I have never looked into it. Going on the you tube vid this seems guy seems to be saying almost exactly what I thought, with what I have felt over the years, and makes perfect sense to me. Other methods of supporting up there have always felt very forced to me and can burn me out after just a few hours.

From what I have read so far, this CVT really seems like a breakthrough perception-wise for me Geno. I really appreciate it. :cool:

[MasterBlaster]

To produce both these effects they say that more support is required when singing high.

Thanks for posting that I agree 100%. It's the exact same thing that I said ("If you want a grittier tone you need to push more and sing louder.") but only I said it in laymans terms to make it simpler to understand. I also gave a warning that you should warm up first. The more you support the more air you blow through your vocal chords thus increasing the intensity (volume) and muscularity of the tone.

[Adolph Namlik]

Note that the NEGATIVITY has been deleted and "edited".

Please, gentleman, NO MORE !!!

(Rep points to be restored)

Enough said !

[MasterBlaster]

Note that the NEGATIVITY has been deleted and "edited".

Please, gentleman, NO MORE !!!

(Rep points to be restored)

Enough said !

Much appreciated kind sir. As the young kids say - Respect!

And thanks to MDEW as well. Your cool in my book.

[ronws]

My avatar looking like a dog was surprisingly easy. I u/l'd an old pic of my dog. He is prettier than I am. Which may not be saying much ...

[jonathangraham]

**UPDATE**

Ok, so after only a week of working through some of the CVT pedagogy today i really felt a lot more strength and connection on the top end. it's still a little shaky in places but i wanted to get you guys take on it too see if you think there is any difference from the original post?

Now I know, just like any new technique it's probably gonna take a couple of month before it's gonna really take hold however I am using this "creaking" idea on the short clip below.

Do you think it works, to your ears?

Thanks for listening.

[ronws]

Sounds fine, to me.

"Rusty Cage" - your voice sounds in the pocket, like you are centered, no matter where you are.

"Love Reign O'er Me" - Definitely do it your way. That is strong.

[Chavie]

Your so close to man, id say maybe if you put a little more Anger into it, it would come out perfect

You take sounds a little nicer then cornell's.

your problem is not technique at all......(in my opinion anyway)

Give the mad vibe a try :)

[jonathangraham]

Sounds fine, to me.

Thanks Ron, ill keep running with it and hopefully have a bit more hold on it in a few weeks.

your problem is not technique at all......(in my opinion anyway)

Give the mad vibe a try

Haha you could have a real point here. I think sometimes at home i'm just a little hesitant too really push it and bother the neighbours. I need to take a leaf out of Enander's book i think his hatred has produced some incredible results.