In defence of Singing Success and Mastering Mix by Bret Manning

[kalapoka]

First of all, I need to clarify that I am in no way an expert about singing and vocal programs, neither have I been singing for many years. I am a hungry student with a sharp and analytical mind, and I will write the rest of this post from the perspective of a beginner / student.

For the last year I have been a member of TMV, and I have noticed a great dislike for Bret Manning and his programs in here. This has come from students and teachers alike claiming his marketing chops are the main reason for the success of his products, that it is not nearly as strong as a program as the other programs available out there, that he is making profits by promising to add one octave to the range of the student etc.

While I can certainly agree that Bret's programs may not be the strongest program out there in terms of power etc needed for singing the heavier side of music, I am a bit disappointed to see this total neglect towards the program that has proven to be very successful and brought joy to many hearts. For the last 6 months, I have been going thru a lot vocal training programs and I will try to point some of the real good sides of Bret's programs here:

1. The best thing about ALL of his programs are - they are EASILY understood by any beginner. The programs are designed as such to take the beginner by the hand and help him/her take the first baby steps towards the life long journey.

2. The programs are VERY SYSTEMATIC and VERY WELL ORGANIZED. They go from easy, simple exercises to tougher exercises as the singer gains more agility and confidence. I've been reading some different programs lately, and frankly, the 'unsystematicness' of these programs drive me wild. What should I practice? Where are the examples? What should be my daily practice routine? Where are the sing along tracks? Atleast I did not yet come across a program that has all that.

3. ALL the exercises are well explained - Bret explains each exercise before hand and shows how it helps the overall vocal development.

4. Practice tracks and scales - each exercise contains a piano track to practice along, covering a whole big range for any one to fit in. I have not found even this simple thing in MANY other programs.

5. The programs do not throw a big book of written explanations to the beginner - it shows you. Let's face it - beginner's will grow an interest of all the nitty grittys, the anatomy, the technical jargon only after they have achieved their own success in singing. Many other programs are BIG books of technical issues - Its like giving a lesson in advanced jazz harmony to the beginning guitar student who wants to learn 'smoke on the water'. If a student has enough aspirations, he/she will automatically want to learn all about the inner workings of music/singing. Throwing so much at him/her from the beginning only discourages the person to pursue any further. This method of teaching is something that I have learned from JOE SATRIANI (not personally from him ofcourse, thru interviews). I've tried out a book recently and the amount of information in there is just too much for me to process. Even then it does not touch what should I be practicing regularly etc.

6. Bret does not ONLY promise range chasing. Yes, 'Singing Success', Bret's flagship program's marketing line was 'add a whole octave' to your range. BUT, out of the 12 disc program, believe me, atleast 6 Full discs have lessons on Style, Vibrato, Expression, Licks in RnB, Country, Pop, & Rock (not hard rock/metal), application of lessons in actual songs, etc. The 6 style discs contains demo licks and runs and vibrato and phrasing etc as well as piano bed tracks to practice those licks - yet these areas are ALWAYS overlooked whenever there is a discussion about SS and everyone seems to jump in and has something less than positive to say about it.

7. Bret's 2nd program MASTERING VIBRATO is the only program out there dedicated fully to master this artful yet elusive area. How good is the program? According to Jamie Vendera in Raise Your Voice - "This is the only vibrato program that I personally endorse". Oh and Jamie also added - "In my opinion, Brett is one of the best vocal coaches out today." (page 326, Raise Your Voice, 2nd Edition)

8. Bret's 3rd program MASTERING MIX is not at all about range. MOST of the exercises in this program do not even go to the very high ranges. This program is all about developing the 'mix' - the hardest part of your voice to develop. From my personal analysis, I have seen that most of the hit and accessible songs out there today have their most important parts (mainly choruses) written some where around the mid-voice or mix range. I've been playing guitar in bands and covering a crazy range of songs for atleast 12 yrs if that adds to my credo as a musician to know about this. Also, i read somewhere while reading through classical areas - the mid-voice is where the singer's voice the MOST beautiful. I will let people who are more versed in the classical side to comment on this.

9. Yes, these programs are not ACTUALLY targetted towards the hard rock/ heavy metal singer. They are targetted towards the Pop, RnB, Country, and some Rock singers. I, a fan of hard rock and heavy metal myself, as a student, don't see ANY problems at all with that. There exists a whole world of different singing genres apart from rock and if this program addresses so much but not that, its more than ok for me (and a lot of others) I will take the best out of this and learn from all the other programs that I can learn from. And frankly, do ANY program have the ability to address ALL the singer's desires? Can a very solid rock program teach me some RnB licks?

10. It's a safe program (as far as my understanding goes and I have experienced). I don't think the exercises and the lessons contained here can lead to any damage in the vocals. And Bret, always, with in each exercise keeps repeating 'do not go higher or lower than you can comfortably and freely'. The safety of the exercises is VERY important for someone who cannot afford lessons from a voice teacher.

11. To conclude, I know that there is a big opposition of Speech Level Singing vs the traditional methods. I am not learned enough to comment on which school is correct. However, I think the beauty of Brets programs is the simplicity and the systematic approach, it is in the organization and the structure of the lessons, it is in the completeness of the design (containing practice tracks to cover a BIG range, application of lessons in songs, piano song tracks etc). A beginner can easily start the program and see results. If he dedicatedly sticks to it, very soon he will learn to sing licks and phrases with style and expression, have a strong mixed voice and use the 'money notes' from 'the one whole octave' added to his range. If he is serious enough, he will also put a nice vibrato on it, as well!

I do not wish to offend any one here - teacher, fellow forum members and a few friends that I have made here. I know all the programs have their strenghts and it is upto us what we do with the information. I just wanted to share with all of you all the benefits and positives that I have experienced using Brets programs for the last 6 months (and not even regularly everyday, as I am more of an instrumental guitarist with a full time job than a sole singer).

Sorry for this HUGE post, but I think it was needed.

Peace!

[ronws]

I've never worried much about who's method it was that I was learning from. And, to be accurate, as I have mentioned before, I started studying voice with a book from Graham Hewitt and I think I am the only person here to mention him, period, paragraph, new book (colloqiual phrase). His descriptions, while technical were not overly technical and while his analogies might be inaccurate, especially to someone who may have studied anatomy, I find the analogies effective in their imagery to get where I was going.

And I totally dig the science vibe here, too. I haven't really had much experience with the Brett Manning system. In fact, I learned of this site from a mention of it on a Kevin Richards video on youtube. Recently, I learned from Mr. Fraser that the my mental picture of vocal chords shortening and tightening up to produce high note is not anatomically correct. That the chords stretch out until they are at the tension require for a specific note, which makes sense, too, as if turning the tuning peg on a guitar raises the pitch of an open string played. So, I learn something new, but I still valued the old, "wrong" way because it gave me a mental image to ascribe to what I am doing.

But I know I can learn plenty, here. Who knows what having a new or more correct mental image may do for me? Thinking of contractions allowed me to keep from elevating the larynx to much. Maybe thinking of elongations may allow me to elevate just a little and we'll see where that goes.

I wasn't aware of too much "anti-Manning" though it may exist here. I'm not really good at what I call politics and who's in favor of what or what not.

[Martin H]

kalapoka,

I'm happy for you that you find that SS is helping you reach your goals! If it works....stick with it.

In my personal opinion though, I find that paying 525$ for the 3 products you mentioned is a bit overpriced!

I'm a CVT user myself - and for that price you can get the CVT-book/program and 4 full hours of personal instructions from a certified CVT-teacher!

But again if SS is what works for you then great. :)

[kalapoka]

Jens: yes it's expensive but to many the price is worth it. But this is a very relative point as not everyone's pocket is same so its better not to discuss this.

So far I've been studying - i think the support issue is not as focused in the whole SLS school compared to the other methods (vendera's or lunte's). But all the basics are there in the program - posture, breathing, relaxation every thing is there in the very beginning. Plus this is also one of my earlier arguments - how much support would a country or a pop singer need? how much power will a pop singer need to make music and be successful? I think most of us are all rockers here and its often difficult for us to see beyond that. A LOT of singers don't REALLY need that powerful sound based on the genre they've chosen to stick to.

I've frequented the SS forums and yes there aren't a lot of people who are 'great' in there. But I suggest you also look at Manning's list of clients (i am not talking about the big names as keith urban or hayley williams) but the smaller bands & pop/rnb/country singers who have gone to SS or MM for their solution. You will a lot of these artists are actually doing really good in their own genres. Looking at the forums full of beginners like myself is not a very strong indication of the strength of the programs IMO.

Martin: I know you are a CVT guy and from all your posts I know you are doing well musically as well. I won't say SS is my only thing, but its the first program that helped me ease into this elusive world of singing. People who know me from before can tell the improvement I have made in 6 months. But the reason for my post was not that. My only reason was just to bring to the front some good stuff about Manning's programs that I honestly felt was just being ignored for some reason. IMO every program will have their star students - CVT, RYV, Tamplin's, Lunte's everyones. I just felt SS/MM/SLS was just being shoved off a bit too much. I've gone thru the CVT book and honestly, it was really difficult for me to understand. I am still trying. Comparatively RYV was much easier. Doesn't mean any of these programs are any less than the other...

No offense meant to anyone in any way my friends...

[kalapoka]

I think pretty much every one here is familiar to the list below, but I felt like putting it here, just in case. These are the testimonials about SS from artists ranging from Pop, Country, Christian, Soul, Gospel, Acapella Groups, RNB, and yes, 2 powerful rock vocalists. To top it off, it also contains a testimonial by Mr. Jamie Vendera himself which I will quote directly here:

Jaime Vendera

(TheVoiceConnection.com):

"In all of my reviews of vocal books and methods since I have started studying voice, I can honestly say that this program is one of the most informative and comprehensive vocal improvement methods I have ever read and tried. Over-all I have to give this program an A+."

click on this link and you can see for yourself: http://www.singingsuccess.com/testimonials

If this is not the truth, I don't know what is.

[Robert Lunte]

First of all, as the founder of this forum, I take concern with any suggestion that there is any suggestion for a "great dislike" for Brett Manning?! Huh?! Uhm, I dont think so. I happen to know Brett Manning, I have met him, been to his home and studio and speak to him on the phone at least 1 or 2 times a year and I dont think anyone here on this forum has a "great dislike" for Brett Manning.

I think Brett Manning is a good voice teacher and knows what he knows and that which he knows, he knows well. I also am the first to say, "hats off" to Brett and his success with SS! I will also add, one thing I really like about Brett is he leads my example. Brett has recorded some song of him singing and I love his voice, he is a good artist too and applies his techniques to the art... something we dont see too often from voice teachers.

Having said all that, there is no doubt that Brett is a very effective web marketer and there is nothing wrong with that. He's running a business... oh, and so am I, and so is CVI (Cathrine Sadolin) and everyone else.

Any fair and square arguments against SS would be its slow adoption of recognizing vocal modes, vocal qualities and the science that is emerging about the voice and its application to voice pedagogy, and ill just leave it at that.

If its working for you, NO ONE on this forum is going to ask you to stop... you go! Have lots of success with that... and when your ready... please upload a file of you singing a melodic 5th interval from A#3 - F4 or C4 - G4... lets hear how your bridging and low head tones are coming together with SS?

Thanks for your post.

[analog]

Well let me put it to you this way, I really like SS ive done it tons of times and it helps. But man 200 dollars is a joke, and brett cant sing if they put a gun to his head...

Holy hell I'm cryin' dude. Funniest post I've read on this forum.

[Jens]

Well it's kindo the truth, that probably came out abit offensive since on this forum im probably one of those who has used SS the most,aside from centeroftheuniverse.

Kalapoka it's great that SS is working for you it did for me to, but the program only takes you so far and you really need the support to be a stable singer live. Not matter the genre you need support, very soft singing actualy consumes equally ammount of support as louder singing if done in a troublesome spot.

Well aside from that here's my list of positive things i have to say about the program:

Great for expanding neutral range, softer headtones whistle register.

Great for warming up and training your whole range.

Systematic approach that is easy to follow.

The thing with SS is that it works verywell with already powerfull vocalists as they gain huge results when they lighten their voices. Usually these guys are tenors or baritones with an already set range up to B4 C5.

[joshual]

Yes it's overpriced but it's also his business like EVERY other teacher, so if i can have some people buying it 525$ program, good for him, that does not make him a bad teacher.

On the other side, the SS program is really well made, tons of explanations, exercices, 12 cds, some style tricks. Who else gives you that....

Being a guitar teacher myself, i also aprove the fact that too many times, i see methods that try to explain jazz harmony to people that just want to play knocking on heavens door on a acoustic guitar.

I wish Robert or CVT ( no misunderstanding, i love those programs ), could be as documented, progressive and packaged as good as SS programs.

Now, i don't think there was so dislike on the forum lol. Just different point of views.

Peace

[Robert Lunte]

I will say this... I have had a LOT of students come to me after working on SS and I always get the same comment, "... I learned some things, Ive made progress, I have a foundation... but Im still not getting the ultimate results I seek... I need to take my singing to the next level". I think that sums it up honestly. At TVS, and it was never my plan... I tend to get singers that are ready for the next level... ready for the advanced stuff... that includes, learning to modulation laryngeal configurations (vocal modes / twang training, distortion, etc...), that really take a singer's ability to phonate from "ok-good" to amazing and extreme. Want some basics, your a raw beginner, your a country singer, a singer that only needs to sing in the chest voice most of the time... your not a rocker or into heavy metal?... then SS may be ok for you. Want to learn to sing with extreme bridging dexterity, learn vocal modes that will amplify frequencies, induce vocal fold closure, produce distortion, scream a C5 or a G5 so clean and powerful it punches a hole in the wall? You have been singing for sometime and want "fighter pilot" training? Come to TVS and thats what your stepping into. I know guys, I know this sounds like Im pitching my system... well, I guess I am a little bit... but I truly know this to be true. As for CVI, I think that is also very good for advanced singers, etc...

This doesnt take anything away from SS.

Jens, I have to disagree with you on Brett's singing as an artist. He has tunes, perhaps you can find it on myspace.com, he sounds good, he is a good singer and sounds cool, Ill defend him on that.

Joshua, I dont understand what you mean? You wish me and CVT could be "documented"... what does that mean... both me and CVT have books... we have bothered to sit down and write a book which is REALLY hard and time consuming. Brett, has no book, he only produces audio CDs and DVDs... which Im telling you, thats the easy part. I admire any voice coach who can sit their butt down and actually put pen to paper, do some research and try as best as they can, to write a book! CVT, GREAT book... mine... people like it, its got good reviews... the current version is being updated as we speak and to be honest, CVT is my inspiration for the quality of book I endeavor to write. Im adding a lot more science such as vocal modes and vowel modification into it... anyways, I digress...

Progressive? What do you mean by that? In my opinion, a vocal training system that offers customers over four hours of HD video content of the author himself demonstrating the vocal workouts, on stage, with mic in hand... thats not "progressive"? Uhm, Ive never seen Brett do that... Ive seen him sit when he teaches students who are... also sitting and his product has no demonstrations of Brett on video singing his own stuff. Thats ok... but its hardly "progressive".

Packaging?... really... ? Well, packaging is important... kinda, but not that important. I think the CVT book looks really nice and "Pillars" looks cool too... its meant to be a field manual, thats why it has a spiral binding and laminated cover, so you can toss it in your vocalist gig bag and take it with you to the "front lines"...

Hope you guys in the states are enjoying your holiday.

[Jens]

Well yeah robert i understand your defence of manning, I guess i just was alittle dissappointed when i heard some liveclips of him singing some weeks ago... It didnt sound anywhere near the songs he has released on cd or recorded.

I actualy held his singing pretty high judgeing by probably the same tracks you refer to now since most of his tutorials demonstrate pretty cool sounds.

[ronws]

I will say this... I have had a LOT of students come to me after working on SS and I always get the same comment, "... I learned some things, Ive made progress, I have a foundation... but Im still not getting the ultimate results I seek... I need to take my singing to the next level". I think that sums it up honestly. At TVS, and it was never my plan... I tend to get singers that are ready for the next level... ready for the advanced stuff...

Hope you guys in the states are enjoying your holiday.

First, thanks, we like celebrating Memorial Day. I grew up around the military. The list of friends and family who have served is worthy of its own thread. I could not serve because of a medical disqualification. Asthma, believe it or not, which stuck around until my early 20's. Now, I am too old to enlist.

Anyway, I would quote your whole post but wanted to save bandwidth. I totally agree with your post. I am between jobs right now but I would love to get your system when I can.

I have been singing a long time but I learn every day and I've learned a few things since being here, including the fact that I don't always have the right terminology or analogy to describe what I think or what I am doing, or even if what I am doing is right. And I still have more to learn. This is what separates me from a lot of people. I have never thought that I know everything, even in my own trade. I have a master electrician license in Texas. It's the biggest license they write. And that doesn't mean I know everything. I can still learn something new, often from apprentices because of their fresh approach.

I have even taught electrical work for a living. And the students, with me, found a difference between the academic approach and my hands-on, "here we go, get in there" approach. And they preferred mine. Needless to say, my approach had limited attractiveness to my superiors. I was training people to do electrical work from day 1 and the supervisors had some paperwork issues that got placed on me. But I did what I aimed to accomplish. I taught some students how to bend pipe, pull wire, make connections, and, most importantly, think on their feet and arrive at on-the-spot workable solutions, which is gold in my trade.

I so appreciate the other members that offer examples of what they are doing. I learn from that, even if I am commenting from my layman's perspective. This site has certainly helped me re-examine what I am doing, even to what range I am singing in or what tone it is that I am producing. And when I say range, I mean part of the spectrum of the whole voice. I am inclined to shift away from register thinking, as that might lend itself to passagios or breaks. Even though I consider myself scientific, I have found my approach to singing to be somewhat organic, which is not always good.

I am between jobs right now but as soon as I have stable finances, I plan to further my education, perhaps with your material. I like what I am hearing from the students that have studied with you or have benefited from your system.

An ultimate goal of mine would be to have a voice as distinctive as Ronnie James Dio, though I don't have to sound like him to do it. And the range of perhaps Justin Hawkins, even if that gets me labeled as a "falsetto." In my opinion, it doesn't matter as much as it used to matter. I would say to someone calling me a falsetto, even if I am singing full blast tenor, in a paraphrase of your words in your post, "let me hear you sing "that" note."

[kalapoka]

First of all, as the founder of this forum, I take concern with any suggestion that there is any suggestion for a "great dislike" for Brett Manning?! Huh?! Uhm, I dont think so. I happen to know Brett Manning, I have met him, been to his home and studio and speak to him on the phone at least 1 or 2 times a year and I dont think anyone here on this forum has a "great dislike" for Brett Manning.

Only a few days ago there was a post made in a different thread on how these programs are making 'profits' promising range expansion ONLY. One only needs to read that post to understand if there was any underlying tones of dislike or not. I am not posting it here as I think everyone has seen it too.

Any fair and square arguments against SS would be its slow adoption of recognizing vocal modes, vocal qualities and the science that is emerging about the voice and its application to voice pedagogy, and ill just leave it at that.

I agree with you on this. However, there is some updating already done. Example - Lifting the larynx a little bit for powerful high notes is not a 'strict no-no' anymore. They are saying it is normal if the larynx rises in accordance with the notes. But yes, they are a bit slow so far.

If its working for you, NO ONE on this forum is going to ask you to stop... you go! Have lots of success with that... and when your ready... please upload a file of you singing a melodic 5th interval from A#3 - F4 or C4 - G4... lets hear how your bridging and low head tones are coming together with SS?

Thanks for this challenge. I am taking this. . I am off to Norway and Munich for some office work for 10 days but after I'm back I will work on these 4 notes if it's the only thing I do. Although, can't help but feel slightly off-put being asked to upload something like this by the founder of this forum and TMV. You do know that I am a beginner in voice and you are light years ahead of me, so you could have been the bigger person here. I don't think I have discredited any other programs in my post except defending Bret's, but if I have made you feel I'm putting your methods of 'bridging and connecting' down in any way, I apologize. But I'll take the challenge.

I will say this... I have had a LOT of students come to me after working on SS and I always get the same comment, "... I learned some things, Ive made progress, I have a foundation... but Im still not getting the ultimate results I seek... I need to take my singing to the next level".

your not a rocker or into heavy metal?... then SS may be ok for you.

Those are pretty much the same things that I have said about SS. It is not about Rock or Heavy Metal. And it is absolutely awesome that you take singers who want to go to the next level - to the next level. That IS your marketing line - You train vocal athletes. Nothing wrong with that.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this post. Off to Norway now!

Love and Peace.

[Jens]

If you have your way past sweden, call and il put on the coffe

Edit: Kalapoka also a note when you read these forums, opinions of stuff constantly change and this is why this forum is so great.

People on here learn from each other, expanding their methods Robert is a great example on this as his method has evolved alot since he started this board.

[joshual]

Joshua, I dont understand what you mean? You wish me and CVT could be "documented"... what does that mean... both me and CVT have books... we have bothered to sit down and write a book which is REALLY hard and time consuming. Brett, has no book, he only produces audio CDs and DVDs... which Im telling you, thats the easy part. I admire any voice coach who can sit their butt down and actually put pen to paper, do some research and try as best as they can, to write a book! CVT, GREAT book... mine... people like it, its got good reviews... the current version is being updated as we speak and to be honest, CVT is my inspiration for the quality of book I endeavor to write. Im adding a lot more science such as vocal modes and vowel modification into it... anyways, I digress...

Progressive? What do you mean by that? In my opinion, a vocal training system that offers customers over four hours of HD video content of the author himself demonstrating the vocal workouts, on stage, with mic in hand... thats not "progressive"? Uhm, Ive never seen Brett do that... Ive seen him sit when he teaches students who are... also sitting and his product has no demonstrations of Brett on video singing his own stuff. Thats ok... but its hardly "progressive".

Packaging?... really... ? Well, packaging is important... kinda, but not that important. I think the CVT book looks really nice and "Pillars" looks cool too... its meant to be a field manual, thats why it has a spiral binding and laminated cover, so you can toss it in your vocalist gig bag and take it with you to the "front lines"...

Hope you guys in the states are enjoying your holiday.

As my english is not that good, i may have not express myself the right way.

Robert, you know it, i work ONLY on the four pillars because i find it's a really good program, i wish i could have some money to spend time with you with skype lessons .

What i meant was that in SS program, for exemple you have all the exercices demonstrated on each practice track, may sound lazy but it's a great thing to "refresh" your ears and don't realize that you spend 2 days working with bad habits etc... I was just talking about little things like that. Not talking about the real quality and the hard work it takes to really write a book.

Can't wait to see your update with modes ;)

[Robert Lunte]

Jens, thanks buddy... I appreciate you recognizing that Im not "so" confident on my "thing" that Im not prepared to allow growth in TVS pedagogy suffer because of my ego, again, I think something a lot of voice teachers unfortunately do. To be sure, one of the whole purposes for TMV... for the Subject Matter Experts is to tap into other ideas, to grow as teachers and to grow in thier appreciation of each other.

Some of you know me even as far back as the old VC forum... and I appreciate all of you... every damn one of you; Jens, Joshua, Martin, CenterUniverse... its through our discussions and bantor and arguments that we grow and improve as voice experts and artists. Just because I launched this thing, it doesnt mean I dont stand by each of you equally in the journey to grow and learn to improve what Im doing as a teacher and an artist. Truly... I can point to numerous things that I used to fight for, that I now have pulled back on and shifting my opinions.. to name a few; vowel modification... I used to kinda not get it... but NOW... thanks in part to one of my mentors, Steve Fraser... I DO and you should hear the results we are getting with my vocal athletes because of it! I struggled with some (not too many, but there are a few unique voices that cross my path), that get "shrill" when they twang... I now understand that most of the solution to get them to connect in the head voice and not sound too shrill, but have rounder overtones that are appealing... is through understanding how vowels not only change the overtones, but change the underlying physiology... THIS will be fully explained in the "Pillars 2.0" update. Anyone that trains with me will benefit greatly by my application and growth in understanding the importance of vowel modification... its really exciting for me.

Another is the notion of "Mixed Voice"... I still dislike the term "Mixed Voice"... it creates confusion for singers... I am reinforcing a less used term for this phenomenon that Maestro Kyle used to use and I like far better... "Covering".... so... , I have to admit... around D4-G#4 (for men... about 5-6 pitches higher for women)... there most certainly IS a unique feeling that one will encounter when phonating ... PROPERLY FOR SINGING on these pitches... (you can phonate on these pithes in the head voice, but it doesnt mean your guaranteed to capture the "low covered heady placements" I am now building into the TVS talk-track) and training with HUGE success with my students. I maintain, that a "covered" placement.. is a head tone. Its a note that sits in the head voice... its not some half & half thing that people are led to believe... As an artist and expert "phonator"... it does not have ANY feelings that are remotely similar to a more, primitive, shouty, chesty belt... it is a HEAD TONE!... albeit, it feels different the head tone placements that sit higher in the head resonance. As you phonate above A4 (for men...)... the "covered" placements begin to shift and move out of the funky area and more into a higher, placement that feels more familiar for most of us that are able to phonate in the head voice with connectivity. For you less experienced students of singing... the end result is... you are able to phonate low head tones (D#4 - G#4) and make those notes sound more "rounded", darker overtones... more like a high belt. ITS NOT a high chesty belt... but the audience thinks it is... if you can produce rounder overtones through "covering" your low heady placements, you are REALLY hitting a home run on bridging and the way your head voice sounds... I still cant believe how amazing my own voice sounds when Im warmed up and applying my own stuff... and my students too. I have raw beginners that through some good coaching and a little bit of beginners luck... are able to sing a G4 that sounds like Geoff Tate from "The Warning" album... its just simply amazing... thus, launching my understanding and pedagogy forward to new heights.

And here is the final cool revalation... The Vowel Modification (learning to phonate the proper vowels through the Passagio) along with maintaining the proper vocal mode and getting the timing down right (typically, learning to bridge early... most singers bridge way too late and it messes up the entire thing...)... are all intimately connected. If one is not right, it messes up the other. Its about timing on the registration bridge, vocal modes and vowels... ok, add to that the basics as well like blowing enough air and opening your mouth too...

So, am I rambling? Perhaps... but Im trying to show you guys that Im not afraid to admit that there are things that need to be improved and better understood and through a brave application of new ideas... my pedagogy begins to leap forward and my own singing as an artist... as well as my clients. Im currently writing lyrcis and melody to several new songs... one of which is going to be a full length proggy-metal album and I am very contientiously writing melody that puts me in the "rabbit hole" (D#4-A#4)... I believe that mastery of THESE pitches and then application to music is truly what makes vocal peformance truly world-class... so now I move forward on my journey and work to apply better overtones on the tough notes and will put it out there for all to hear in the not too distant future.

Joshua... are you my client from France? If so, I did not realize... it is not my intention to present a challenge with a chip on my shoulder. If thats the way it reads, it was not the vibe I was going for. As my client, I have your back Josh... and you do NOT have to prove anything to me or anyone else on this forum. Just keep practicing, keep exploring ideas and know that that is the quickest path to meeting your vocal goals. I hope to be setting a good example in that regard for you and all my students.

Finally, Jens is right... this TMV Forum group have really gotten to know each other. I think there is a mutual respect for what we know, what we do and what we have all learned together...

TMV has become a really cool thing... Im proud of the main site, the Influential Leaders of Voice Interviews, the TMV Journal and all the nice, fancy looking web sites... however, I truly believe... some of the BEST content and learning remains right here... on the TMV Forum where the last "cool feature" we added were social bookmarks... LOL.... which btw guys... use them... if you like a conversation, bookmark it to your facebook accounts and other social media... let people know what we are doing here... help pull them into our community. The social bookmarks are the way that TMV Forum will no longer be a "hidden secret" but can get more exposure and go main stream.

Respectfully to you all... now than, its a holiday in the US right now... but yours truly has to keep working...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sBLE3TKv-Y

[Martin H]

Robert,

That was a very inspiring read! Great post. :)

[Robert Lunte]

Thanks Martin, I respect your understanding of the voice and that you lead by example, top gun fighter pilot.

[ronws]

And I very much liked the exposition video you linked here. I find your perspective fresh and invigorating, freeing, even, if "freeing" is a word. It won't be the first time I have butchered the "Queen's English." I like you reference to just two registers, essentially, head and chest, rather than chopped up sections. I think it is a paradigm shift that is sorely needed. Instead of being classed in a certain range of notes that is restricted to mainly one set of overtones or resonance (I'm probably mis-describing once again but I know what I am trying to say) a person is capable of any number of pitches and what is truly important is where and how you resonate, with support and a healthy, learned sinewy (?) strength in the folds. And how is it that we can do it naturally as an infant and lose it later in adulthood? Perhaps it's because of what we socially expect a man to sound like as an adult. But an infant, with no training can hit high pitches and hold them for a long time. Granted, the vocal chords or folds are smaller then and likely to produce higher pitches but that is not what is responsible for the resonance, power, and sustainability. Just ask any mother or father with a headache. Also, I might add, an infant hasn't yet learned speech. They have a sonic instrument with no particular articulation.

That's why I sometimes doubt the idea that singing is just speaking with sustain. I think it's more subtle and basic than that. Especially when you talk about the location of phonation and the vowel sound being used.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[VideoHere]

folks,

i'll say this....a lot of folks keep saying they have all these goals..higher range, better tone, sound of whomever artist, etc., etc., all i know is if you really want to get great, you simply have to work at it.......for the rest of your life....period!

there's no easy way to get better (whatever one define's as "better" is an individual choice).

i think singing is analygous to weight loss and maintaining your weight...it's a lifelong endeavor with a lot of sacrifice and struggle.

all of these dvd and cd's all promise higher range, more power, better tone if you are willing to work at it!!!

with me hitting 57 coming up in october, man, i'm really hoping my hard work will suspend the voice deterioration that may occur later in life.

i am now trying a series of vocal exercises from roger kain's cd and his technique (for those who have his cd) is the antithesis of some of the other teachings but man do i ever get a workout.

you are all a great bunch of folks but if anyone of you has the idea that improvement on your singing wil come easy, you really might want to rethink that assumption.

[ronws]

you are all a great bunch of folks but if anyone of you has the idea that improvement on your singing wil come easy, you really might want to rethink that assumption.

I was just wondering who here has said that they thought it was easy. Every one of us is working at it, even after some time and experience (at various levels of doing it.)

Maybe the answer won't be found in one system though I like to think different systems address different concerns.

[Robert Lunte]

And I very much liked the exposition video you linked here. I find your perspective fresh and invigorating, freeing, even, if "freeing" is a word. It won't be the first time I have butchered the "Queen's English." I like you reference to just two registers, essentially, head and chest, rather than chopped up sections. I think it is a paradigm shift that is sorely needed. Instead of being classed in a certain range of notes that is restricted to mainly one set of overtones or resonance (I'm probably mis-describing once again but I know what I am trying to say) a person is capable of any number of pitches and what is truly important is where and how you resonate, with support and a healthy, learned sinewy (?) strength in the folds. And how is it that we can do it naturally as an infant and lose it later in adulthood? Perhaps it's because of what we socially expect a man to sound like as an adult. But an infant, with no training can hit high pitches and hold them for a long time. Granted, the vocal chords or folds are smaller then and likely to produce higher pitches but that is not what is responsible for the resonance, power, and sustainability. Just ask any mother or father with a headache. Also, I might add, an infant hasn't yet learned speech. They have a sonic instrument with no particular articulation.

That's why I sometimes doubt the idea that singing is just speaking with sustain. I think it's more subtle and basic than that. Especially when you talk about the location of phonation and the vowel sound being used.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Cool, thanks for the feedback on my video. Im spending a lot of time with a professional film guy these days, there are a lot of production elements on TVS that are now able to improve, given the expansion of the brand becoming International.

Not to be argumentative here, but I believe that speech is a very primitive phonation, vocal mode. It evolved 10,000 years ago out of a shouty mating call our ancestors used when they still slept in trees, prior to coming down from the trees and making a living on the African savanna... requiring man to stand upright. Singing is quite sophisticated. You only have to read any of the numerous debates on TMV Forum to understand how involved it can be. Singing is "high art". I once heard Ingo Titze at the TVF Symposium once say, "Singers are the Olympic Athletes of voice". He is right. We can make phonations that most other people can not do. We do "stunts" with our voice and in some sense, that is what singing is... its a trick, a "stunt". We train to learn how to make "extreme" phonations that would be on pitches and levels of velocity no where near required to simply bark out, "Hey, Grog!! Look out for that Sabor tooth tiger".

I invite you to see speech mode as miraculous in its own right, but non-the-less, primitive. Singing is to the voice, what what Olympic track runners are to running.

[Robert Lunte]

All of these great voice coaches can teach you a broad spectrum of techniques and skills... having said that, its also true that we tend to become specialists in some areas as well. We know what we know, but what we know, we know REAL well. No voice teachers knows it all... thats for sure. And as I pointed out above, Im still working on it everday... in fact spent about two and a half hours in my studio this morning, before all else... working on a new original tune Ill sing at my German & Italian Master Class sessions in a week, as well as working out melodic ideas from my proggy album with Zack. I like Bob's comment that it never ends... thats true Bob, good call. Maestro Kyle used to say, "... the day you think your done.... your done". That is to say, your done as a singer.

At its highest level, singing becomes a lifestyle. That doesnt mean you have to be touring the world, but it does mean your always working on your voice, singing in a local band, making a recording, participating in a local choral group, taking lessons... your always involved in singing of some kind. Your never, "done" practicing, learning, throwing up new challenges for yourself, seeking new ideas and learning.

[ronws]

All of these great voice coaches can teach you a broad spectrum of techniques and skills... having said that, its also true that we tend to become specialists in some areas as well. We know what we know, but what we know, we know REAL well. No voice teachers knows it all... thats for sure. And as I pointed out above, Im still working on it everday... in fact spent about two and a half hours in my studio this morning, before all else... working on a new original tune Ill sing at my German & Italian Master Class sessions in a week, as well as working out melodic ideas from my proggy album with Zack. I like Bob's comment that it never ends... thats true Bob, good call. Maestro Kyle used to say, "... the day you think your done.... your done". That is to say, your done as a singer.

At its highest level, singing becomes a lifestyle. That doesnt mean you have to be touring the world, but it does mean your always working on your voice, singing in a local band, making a recording, participating in a local choral group, taking lessons... your always involved in singing of some kind. Your never, "done" practicing, learning, throwing up new challenges for yourself, seeking new ideas and learning.

Amen to that. As for the thing about speaking versus singing, I think we did start out with grunts that were primal and when it came to more stops, be they gutteral, labial, or dental, we also lowered our volume and pitch. Either out of a mechanical function of such actions or out of desire to not alert prey or enemies to our presence. But I think we almost said the same thing.

As it is, I learned something from John O'Hurley (current host of "Family Feud.") He, like I am, is a dog fancier and he learned to bark like a dog, as I can. And it came from seeing how a dog makes a sound with it's whole body. The chords at the right tension, a diaphragmatic push, and whatever resonance is available. Sometimes, I use it in singing, which might explain why I can have such an explosive sound, sometimes. But, then, again, what if we were speaking and held a note. Then, I could see it as an extension of speaking, at least in the baritone range. But my "bark" has enabled me to signal a co-worker at work over the noise of loud equipment.

Maybe I'm rambling but I think you're onto to something good.

[Robert Lunte]

Thats interesting. If I were you, I would create a pamphlet and a few videos that teach people how to bark like a dog and sell it online... Im serious. You might be surprised. Its its well done, people would buy it.