HI I'm new here and would love clarification on these vocal techniques

[OppaB]

Hi, My name is B.

I have a few questions on vocal technique and I was a bit afraid to just jump in on a new vocal technique without asking questions and since I know this is the most popular vocal forum on the web, I'll ask it here.

1. I bought ken Tamplin vocal program around January, volume 1 which is all about the bright vowels and open throat. I find that sometimes it causes a student to jam their tongue into their pharynx in hopes of directly creating an open throat which I hear cannot happen and will actually cause unnecessary tensions. So I quit that, when I was doing the program I found that my cords didn't close properly maybe because of the open throat then I was told to do these weird sounds on the forum in hopes of closing the cords which is all a guessing game. I cannot risk my vocals like that, then try and pay 300 to Ken and what if he can't solve my problem. 300 down the drains. Nope. I refuse to waste time vocally. Excluding my experience, is it true that you can't create an open throat directly?

2. Brett manning Protege Jesse Nemitz(who seems to teach better, and makes a lot of sense when describing the voice), he was the one I was going to buy a lesson from recently but I held off on it. Lessons are expensive and I have to make sure I make the right choices but he teaches using a technique surrounding a concept called Bernoulli principle which is basically if you can get your cords close enough and use the attack of the note, the air pressure around the cords will close your cords and as long as you keep breathing out you'll have it and to also cry on the note (which I don't know what it does). Does it make sense in the voice, or make sense with how the human body works? and should I ditch the idea or keep striving to master this concept, and if yes please provide feedback and resources.

3. I've saw this around different forms but It seems to me certain vocal techniques try to get you to change the way you sound. That's the only reason I was hooked on SS & SLS in the past is because I kinda like how I sound naturally and what that sound to carry over into my singing. I've observed singers like Michael Jackson & Beyonce go from talking to singing but they sound the same just with more intensity and vocal effects. It doesn't make sense to me, to go from talking normal to singing like a different person. As a performer, your changing your personality when your doing that because the audience will be like, why does he sing normal in his chest notes and sing like Kermit the frog in his head voice. Shouldn't we sound the same throughout our range, just like were talking?

4. Last one, I can't decide between to buy CVT, Robert Lunte 4 pillars 3.0, and Jo Estill.

I read on another forum that Rob's lunte method causes you to have a weird nasality in your tone, is that true? people in the past before said I sounded too nasal long ago. I don't wanna go that route again lol. I read where Rob said CVT is basically a copy of Jo Estill? so why not just get the original. What is your take on all these things. I don't want any technique changing how I sound. I like my sound, I just want to be able to produce how I sound a whole lot better. That's probably why a lot of people in the past went toward Speech Level singing in the past.

I want my next investment to be a well made investment, not based on hype or vocal myths. I just want the truth and I want feel improvements. I've been through so much vocal error and I'm sad and tired of searching for the right place. I'm thankful for any advice, and feedback you have to offer me. I'm not a total beginner in the voice, but please don't use terms like curbing and overdrive. LOL I don't know what those mean at all. Thank you ahead of time. :D

[Felipe Carvalho]

Hi.

As you said, focus on results, training with someone who can not use his/her voice with a quality that you would want for you does not work.

As to which "technique" is better, vocal technique is one and the same no matter the source, the only thing that changes is the way its instructed. I would look for someone who knows that and does not make claims on reinventing the wheel.

My choice was classical, but you will need to work it towards your repertoire, its not so easy to find a teacher that is good and willing to work towards pop. A guy that has a formation like this is Daniel.

You have Pilars, so you also have the free class right? Use it, I understand that Robert formation is similar too, and you can check his results and his students.

Now, what is a really poor idea is trying to use all this material you say you have at the same time. It will just waste your time, focus on building the rudimentary side of technique first with good orientation. And about hurting to get "cord closure", its wrong, period.

[OppaB]

Okay Thanks for the advice. Pain= trouble, & waste of time. Also no I never bought 4 pillars, I just signed up for the forum because I was informed to sign up here from a member on the SS forums because I was told this forum would help me in the right direction. Could you comment on your experience and ideas with Closed throat & Open throat for phonation? I like classical music but It's not my style of singing. I sing pop, blues, soul, country, & other genres of music.

[OppaB]

and Who is Daniel? any website?

[Felipe Carvalho]

Yeah, I dont sing classical either, I am into pop/rock.

Its Daniel Formica, he has some posts around and you should find him easily on youtube. His website is www.yourvocalteacher.com

About open/closed throat:

There is a lot to it and nothing that I think that is directly usefull for you man. But in a resumed and simple way:

One idea is in relation to the sensation of comfort on the throat, which will feel like its open despite of the internal postures, but its personal and can vary.

The others is regarding what happens on the pharynx as the pitch increases and the activation of the false vocal folds on certain situations, specially more agressive productions...

To begin, your focus will probably be getting it “more” open, both in the sensation and literaly,, to bring more comfort and reduce the necessary effort to phonate. This is directly related to resonance, something that your teacher should be concerned, not you. Its not really a matter of just trying to “keep your throat open”... The way you support and things like forward articulation will play a role in it.

For pop singing the center of the voice is usually set a little lower, more spoken like, there is plenty of margin before getting into the “classical sound”, so rest assured that you dont have to sound like a classical singer and the application should and must be done towards your repertoire/style.

Again, I dont see how you can use this kind of information alone, and there really is no difference in application just because of the name used to call an idea.

[VideoHere]

come on now.....6 years of lessons and homework (daily exercises) and no appreciable improvement?

[OppaB]

No, Allow me to clarify. The program removed all tension(majority). That's it, I've used it's basic function. I love how the programs are structured but the exercises do nothing really to help me sing better. Support is not mentioned, so I'm teaching myself that. Using certain sounds to bring about cord closure, doesn't help my voice. Then paying BMA's to undo the damage that the exercises caused is counter productive. Jesse Nemitz Is the only coach I've found to bring about a real change in my voice, that's it. In the future I want to have a lesson with Robert Lunte. To be honest, I had thought my questions would be answered in a full text wall but I guess that's not how ya'll operate? I really want to get into the meat of the voice, technique, a great all out discussion in order to lead me to the right path of what should be happening in the voice, and wanting to learn your personal experiences as well.

[Owen Korzec]

My thoughts in bold. I am only an intermediate singer but even at my stage in the game a lot of this sounds wrong.

Hi, Name is B, 19 turning 20 in a few days Sept.1(vocally I'm told I am a Lyrical Tenor). I come from doing SLS(mainly Singing success) with coaches(BMA's), all products and wasted loads of money for about 6 years. I can say that SS got rid of all my beginner tension but that's about it, I no longer believe it's something to use to learn how to sing powerful but for mainly reducing tension in any persons voice and restoring balance to their voice if that person had vocal nodules or was a massive strainer. Whats funny is, I was so desperate not too long ago I was willing to pay a lot of money to a former Brett manning associate to get one lesson but that following night I had a dream that I was having a lesson with Brett manning himself and he couldn't even answer my questions about the voice and his vocal demonstration was horrible, when he did mum's and the others. Me personally, I will no longer hold men in high esteem if they don't produce results. In the past I used to be afraid of saying anything bad about something not realizing that I'm propagating a SLS myth in a vocal method that is almost cult like. I like what Ken Tamplin & Robert Lunte said, if your coach cannot sing or demonstrate properly run far away from them. It never crossed my mind to ask my vocal teacher to sing a vocally demanding song in front of me in order to see what they can teach me in terms of technique.

I have a few questions on vocal technique and I was a bit afraid to just jump in on a new vocal technique without asking questions and since I know this is the most popular vocal forum on the web, I'll ask it here.

1. My last vocal coach informed me that having open throat technique is not necessary and stands in the way of making proper phonation within the throat, her way is about closing the cords I guess using something called the aryitenoids. Her method is kinda like (sing like you speak) but she had me close me cords with a loud 'HaH' "H" does not close the cords, it opens them if anything. This teacher didn't know what she was talking about and was trying to have you accomplish something with the wrong onset...no wonder you were hurting.which caused my voice to hurt constantly and she never answered my questions that I had after the lessons. I was informed to that the higher I go ,the more I want to squeeze as she put it and that in chest voice or my lower notes I should have less of a squeeze. Does that make sense vocally? Nope. As a beginner it may feel like that, but in reality, you need to reduce squeeze slightly as you go higher. Really what it is is you have to transition to a more intrinsic, isolated kind of squeeze I'm just recently discovered body compression, basically using the attack of the body (SS terms) to close the cords rather than pushing on the throat in hopes of guessing how to squeeze the cords and keep them closed. I find that by using the body to try and close the cords ,my voice never hurts or stressed. (i'ma breathy singer kinda)

http://www.vocaltechnique.ca/phonation.htm This is her site and she had studied how the human voice works but still it's always important to hear others opinions and learn. I'm open minded. This is what she said about open throat. Another common problem advocated by many teachers is to 'open the throat' while singing. This idea originally came from the Italian school, regarded by many as the apex of classical singing. What this 'glotta aperta' actually meant so long ago is quite different than how its applied today. When your vocal chords vibrate they need to come together in order to touch each other therefore a closed throat is what is actually needed in order to phonate properly. When singers try to open their throat, they add a lot of unnecessary tension including too much tension in the tongue and soft palate and an overly low larynx position (see The Larynx) which negatively affects the phonation. We don't attempt to 'open our throats' when talking so why would this be a good idea while singing? It simply isn't. Try it for yourself; it sounds silly. The real 'glotta aperta' refers to something else entirely. It's another widely misunderstood concept which is made easier to understand here, as resonance alignment (see Alignment). PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK, I'M STUCK BETWEEN CLOSED THROAT & OPEN THROAT AND I FEEL LIKE ITS HOLDING ME BACK. Singing with a closed throat is what SLS advocates, and I haven't really strained at all but I will strain if I don't compression the cords by using the body, or the attack of the note. I've tried open throat Ken's method but it led me to not connecting at all just bright, hollow, and breathy singing. In a way it's both. There should be a sensation of open throat, and within that, good cord closure. The pharynx should feel open and you should feel an openness from a reduction of unnecessary uncontrolled constrictions, but meanwhile the larynx will be doing some isolated contractions to help close the cords.

2. I bought ken Tamplin vocal program around January, volume 1 which is all about the bright vowels and open throat. I find that sometimes it causes a student to jam their tongue into their pharynx in hopes of directly creating an open throat which I hear cannot happen and will actually cause unnecessary tensions. So I quit that, when I was doing the program I found that my cords didn't close properly maybe because of the open throat then I was told to do these weird sounds on the forum in hopes of closing the cords which is all a guessing game. I cannot risk my vocals like that, then try and pay 300 to Ken and what if he can't solve my problem. 300 down the drains. Nope. I refuse to waste time vocally. Excluding my experience, is it true that you can't create an open throat directly? I still don't know at this stage, but it shouldn't matter, just figure out how to get that sensation...whether it feels indirect or direct makes no difference

3. Brett manning Protege Jesse Nemitz(who seems to teach better, and makes a lot of sense when describing the voice), he was the one I was going to buy a lesson from recently but I held off on it. Lessons are expensive and I have to make sure I make the right choices but he teaches using a technique surrounding a concept called Bernoulli principle which is basically if you can get your cords close enough and use the attack of the note, the air pressure around the cords will close your cords and as long as you keep breathing out you'll have it and to also cry on the note (which I don't know what it does). Does it make sense in the voice, or make sense with how the human body works? and should I ditch the idea or keep striving to master this concept, and if yes please provide feedback and resources. It makes sense to me personally as a student regarding what I feel when singing well. However a lot of voice expert on this forum seem to not be a fan of the concept. So I don't know...it gets mixed reviews. I do know that for me it gave me some breakthroughs. And no I don't get this from Jesse. Rob Lunte taught me a similar concept.

4. I've saw this around different forms but It seems to me certain vocal techniques try to get you to change the way you sound. That's the only reason I was hooked on SS & SLS in the past is because I kinda like how I sound naturally and what that sound to carry over into my singing. I've observed singers like Michael Jackson & Beyonce go from talking to singing but they sound the same just with more intensity and vocal effects. It doesn't make sense to me, to go from talking normal to singing like a different person. As a performer, your changing your personality when your doing that because the audience will be like, why does he sing normal in his chest notes and sing like Kermit the frog in his head voice. Shouldn't we sound the same throughout our range, just like were talking? No. Similar and unified from top to bottom but not the same...it needs to gradually change as you go up in pitch. When you get to the top of your range and things get difficult, you have to shift resonances to go higher with power. You can sound speech-like only in a range or intensity you can speak in. Other than that (and to be blunt here, most singing is closer to shouting than speaking) you'll have to manipulate it a bit. But not in a kermit the frog way. It should be a change that benefits the sound and gives it a more balanced resonance.

5. Last one, I can't decide between to buy CVT, Robert Lunte 4 pillars 3.0, and Jo Estill.

I read on another forum that Rob's lunte method causes you to have a weird nasality in your tone, is that true? people in the past before said I sounded too nasal long ago. I don't wanna go that route again lol. I read where Rob said CVT is basically a copy of Jo Estill? so why not just get the original. What is your take on all these things lol. I don't want any technique changing how I sound. I like my sound, I just want to be able to product how I sound a whole lot better. That's probably why a lot of people in the past hopped on the Speech Level singing trend in the past. Not necessarily regarding nasality and TVS. It tends to be nasal or quacky in the beginning but the goal is to get away from that and achieve darker tones. You want twang but not nasality, but when first learning twang, it can be hard to decouple it from nasality. But eventually you learn to isolate the twang and combine that with beautiful dark resonance and no nasality. That's the part people seem to overlook. It may be true however that his method doesn't do a great job of teaching. But it's such a little thing, you can literally learn how to get rid of nasality through youtube videos...not a hard skill at all. CVT is not a copy of Estill but they are similar. I'm not super familiar with Estill but CVT seems to be the better one for singers, Estill better if you're just studying the voice. Rob would probably tell you he prefers CVT over Estill actually. As for a technique changing your sound, most techniques do, that is just how it works. In order to increase range, flexibility, etc., certain sounds will work and others won't. But it's not a huge change like changing to a different voice. It will still sound like you no matter what. Now if you like your level of singing ability and just need a healthier way to sing, that's different. Better vocal health can usually be achieved without changing sound. But range expansion etc. generally requires some adjustments.

I want my next investment to be a well made investment, not based on hype or vocal myths. None of what you are talking about here is hype or myths, save maybe the first teacher. You're just impatient about results. All beginners are. It takes time. You also generally have to pick a main method and stick to it. Another thing is you may have not done good research and ended up picking methods that aren't right for you.I just want the truth and I want feel improvements. I've been through so much vocal error and I'm sad and tired of searching for the right place. What you are searching is nothing other than practice time. The method doesn't matter. What you need to do is find the best method for you, and practice it...stick to it...you have to be willing to change your sound too. If you aren't you probably won't get anywhere. This is all based on my own experience. I will say personally I didn't start getting real results until I started taking skype lessons with Lunte. But what vocal investment is going to click for you depends on the person. You seem too skeptical about what you are encountering but some of it you just have to trust and go for. At the very least you need to give a method a couple weeks of daily practice with the help of private instruction, before you decide it's "wrong" or whatever. In the end the method doesn't matter much. It's putting in the practice time. That's it. That's the big "secret" all beginners are looking for. The problem is too many beginners are too confused to even begin actually training, and are afraid to try things that may sound wrong on paper or conflict with something else they read. But once you start training, the confusion will go away since you are learning by experiencing how your own voice works. Whatever you do, stick with what is showing progress. If you don't feel progress in a month or so, something about the technique needs to change. Results - like really becoming a great singer - that takes years. But progress should be there within months or even weeks of daily practice.I'm thankful for any advice, and feedback you have to offer me. I'm not a total beginner in the voice, but please don't use terms like curbing and overdrive. LOL I don't know what those mean at all. Thank you ahead of time.

Hope this all helps...

[Owen Korzec]

My thoughts in bold. I am only an intermediate singer but even at my stage in the game a lot of this sounds wrong.

Hi, Name is B, 19 turning 20 in a few days Sept.1(vocally I'm told I am a Lyrical Tenor). I come from doing SLS(mainly Singing success) with coaches(BMA's), all products and wasted loads of money for about 6 years. I can say that SS got rid of all my beginner tension but that's about it, I no longer believe it's something to use to learn how to sing powerful but for mainly reducing tension in any persons voice and restoring balance to their voice if that person had vocal nodules or was a massive strainer. Whats funny is, I was so desperate not too long ago I was willing to pay a lot of money to a former Brett manning associate to get one lesson but that following night I had a dream that I was having a lesson with Brett manning himself and he couldn't even answer my questions about the voice and his vocal demonstration was horrible, when he did mum's and the others. Me personally, I will no longer hold men in high esteem if they don't produce results. In the past I used to be afraid of saying anything bad about something not realizing that I'm propagating a SLS myth in a vocal method that is almost cult like. I like what Ken Tamplin & Robert Lunte said, if your coach cannot sing or demonstrate properly run far away from them. It never crossed my mind to ask my vocal teacher to sing a vocally demanding song in front of me in order to see what they can teach me in terms of technique.

I have a few questions on vocal technique and I was a bit afraid to just jump in on a new vocal technique without asking questions and since I know this is the most popular vocal forum on the web, I'll ask it here.

1. My last vocal coach informed me that having open throat technique is not necessary and stands in the way of making proper phonation within the throat, her way is about closing the cords I guess using something called the aryitenoids. Her method is kinda like (sing like you speak) but she had me close me cords with a loud 'HaH' "H" does not close the cords, it opens them if anything. This teacher didn't know what she was talking about and was trying to have you accomplish something with the wrong onset...no wonder you were hurting.which caused my voice to hurt constantly and she never answered my questions that I had after the lessons. I was informed to that the higher I go ,the more I want to squeeze as she put it and that in chest voice or my lower notes I should have less of a squeeze. Does that make sense vocally? Nope. As a beginner it may feel like that, but in reality, you need to reduce squeeze slightly as you go higher. Really what it is is you have to transition to a more intrinsic, isolated kind of squeeze I'm just recently discovered body compression, basically using the attack of the body (SS terms) to close the cords rather than pushing on the throat in hopes of guessing how to squeeze the cords and keep them closed. I find that by using the body to try and close the cords ,my voice never hurts or stressed. (i'ma breathy singer kinda)

http://www.vocaltechnique.ca/phonation.htm This is her site and she had studied how the human voice works but still it's always important to hear others opinions and learn. I'm open minded. This is what she said about open throat. Another common problem advocated by many teachers is to 'open the throat' while singing. This idea originally came from the Italian school, regarded by many as the apex of classical singing. What this 'glotta aperta' actually meant so long ago is quite different than how its applied today. When your vocal chords vibrate they need to come together in order to touch each other therefore a closed throat is what is actually needed in order to phonate properly. When singers try to open their throat, they add a lot of unnecessary tension including too much tension in the tongue and soft palate and an overly low larynx position (see The Larynx) which negatively affects the phonation. We don't attempt to 'open our throats' when talking so why would this be a good idea while singing? It simply isn't. Try it for yourself; it sounds silly. The real 'glotta aperta' refers to something else entirely. It's another widely misunderstood concept which is made easier to understand here, as resonance alignment (see Alignment). PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK, I'M STUCK BETWEEN CLOSED THROAT & OPEN THROAT AND I FEEL LIKE ITS HOLDING ME BACK. Singing with a closed throat is what SLS advocates, and I haven't really strained at all but I will strain if I don't compression the cords by using the body, or the attack of the note. I've tried open throat Ken's method but it led me to not connecting at all just bright, hollow, and breathy singing. In a way it's both. There should be a sensation of open throat, and within that, good cord closure. The pharynx should feel open and you should feel an openness from a reduction of unnecessary uncontrolled constrictions, but meanwhile the larynx will be doing some isolated contractions to help close the cords.

2. I bought ken Tamplin vocal program around January, volume 1 which is all about the bright vowels and open throat. I find that sometimes it causes a student to jam their tongue into their pharynx in hopes of directly creating an open throat which I hear cannot happen and will actually cause unnecessary tensions. So I quit that, when I was doing the program I found that my cords didn't close properly maybe because of the open throat then I was told to do these weird sounds on the forum in hopes of closing the cords which is all a guessing game. I cannot risk my vocals like that, then try and pay 300 to Ken and what if he can't solve my problem. 300 down the drains. Nope. I refuse to waste time vocally. Excluding my experience, is it true that you can't create an open throat directly? I still don't know at this stage, but it shouldn't matter, just figure out how to get that sensation...whether it feels indirect or direct makes no difference

3. Brett manning Protege Jesse Nemitz(who seems to teach better, and makes a lot of sense when describing the voice), he was the one I was going to buy a lesson from recently but I held off on it. Lessons are expensive and I have to make sure I make the right choices but he teaches using a technique surrounding a concept called Bernoulli principle which is basically if you can get your cords close enough and use the attack of the note, the air pressure around the cords will close your cords and as long as you keep breathing out you'll have it and to also cry on the note (which I don't know what it does). Does it make sense in the voice, or make sense with how the human body works? and should I ditch the idea or keep striving to master this concept, and if yes please provide feedback and resources. It makes sense to me personally as a student regarding what I feel when singing well. However a lot of voice expert on this forum seem to not be a fan of the concept. So I don't know...it gets mixed reviews. I do know that for me it gave me some breakthroughs. And no I don't get this from Jesse. Rob Lunte taught me a similar concept.

4. I've saw this around different forms but It seems to me certain vocal techniques try to get you to change the way you sound. That's the only reason I was hooked on SS & SLS in the past is because I kinda like how I sound naturally and what that sound to carry over into my singing. I've observed singers like Michael Jackson & Beyonce go from talking to singing but they sound the same just with more intensity and vocal effects. It doesn't make sense to me, to go from talking normal to singing like a different person. As a performer, your changing your personality when your doing that because the audience will be like, why does he sing normal in his chest notes and sing like Kermit the frog in his head voice. Shouldn't we sound the same throughout our range, just like were talking? No. Similar and unified from top to bottom but not the same...it needs to gradually change as you go up in pitch. When you get to the top of your range and things get difficult, you have to shift resonances to go higher with power. You can sound speech-like only in a range or intensity you can speak in. Other than that (and to be blunt here, most singing is closer to shouting than speaking) you'll have to manipulate it a bit. But not in a kermit the frog way. It should be a change that benefits the sound and gives it a more balanced resonance.

5. Last one, I can't decide between to buy CVT, Robert Lunte 4 pillars 3.0, and Jo Estill.

I read on another forum that Rob's lunte method causes you to have a weird nasality in your tone, is that true? people in the past before said I sounded too nasal long ago. I don't wanna go that route again lol. I read where Rob said CVT is basically a copy of Jo Estill? so why not just get the original. What is your take on all these things lol. I don't want any technique changing how I sound. I like my sound, I just want to be able to product how I sound a whole lot better. That's probably why a lot of people in the past hopped on the Speech Level singing trend in the past. Not necessarily regarding nasality and TVS. It tends to be nasal or quacky in the beginning but the goal is to get away from that and achieve darker tones. You want twang but not nasality, but when first learning twang, it can be hard to decouple it from nasality. But eventually you learn to isolate the twang and combine that with beautiful dark resonance and no nasality. That's the part people seem to overlook. It may be true however that his method doesn't do a great job of teaching the removal of nasality. But it's such a little thing, you can literally learn how to get rid of nasality through youtube videos...not a hard skill at all. CVT is not a copy of Estill but they are similar. I'm not super familiar with Estill but CVT seems to be the better one for singers, Estill better if you're just studying the voice. Rob would probably tell you he prefers CVT over Estill actually. As for a technique changing your sound, most techniques do, that is just how it works. In order to increase range, flexibility, etc., certain sounds will work and others won't. But it's not a huge change like changing to a different voice. It will still sound like you no matter what. Now if you like your level of singing ability and just need a healthier way to sing, that's different. Better vocal health can usually be achieved without changing sound. But range expansion etc. generally requires some adjustments.

I want my next investment to be a well made investment, not based on hype or vocal myths. None of what you are talking about here is hype or myths, save maybe the first teacher. You're just impatient about results. All beginners are. It takes time. You also generally have to pick a main method and stick to it. Another thing is you may have not done good research and ended up picking methods that aren't right for you.I just want the truth and I want feel improvements. I've been through so much vocal error and I'm sad and tired of searching for the right place. What you are searching is nothing other than practice time. The method doesn't matter. What you need to do is find the best method for you, and practice it...stick to it...you have to be willing to change your sound too. If you aren't you probably won't get anywhere. This is all based on my own experience. I will say personally I didn't start getting real results until I started taking skype lessons with Lunte. But what vocal investment is going to click for you depends on the person. You seem too skeptical about what you are encountering but some of it you just have to trust and go for. At the very least you need to give a method a couple weeks of daily practice with the help of private instruction, before you decide it's "wrong" or whatever. In the end the method doesn't matter much. It's putting in the practice time. That's it. That's the big "secret" all beginners are looking for. The problem is too many beginners are too confused to even begin actually training, and are afraid to try things that may sound wrong on paper or conflict with something else they read. But once you start training, the confusion will go away since you are learning by experiencing how your own voice works. Whatever you do, stick with what is showing progress. If you don't feel progress in a month or so, something about the technique needs to change. Results - like really becoming a great singer - that takes years. But progress should be there within months or even weeks of daily practice.I'm thankful for any advice, and feedback you have to offer me. I'm not a total beginner in the voice, but please don't use terms like curbing and overdrive. LOL I don't know what those mean at all. Thank you ahead of time.

Hope this all helps...

[VideoHere]

there's no easy way to a great voice.....i believe that no teacher or method should be held completely accountable for the outcome (bad or good) of one's singing voice.

a lot of the success you achieve comes from you and how much you put into it.

[Khassera]

Wow. I've been doing SS for almost half a year now, and I feel I've had a totally different approach to singing than what you've written here. It's like we're studying different methodologies.

Brett asked a good question and answered it as well: "What do you want from your voice? Usually the answer is something very ambiguous." And that's true. "I want a stronger voice" is too ambiguous. "I want to sing like so and so" is ambiguous. "I want to strengthen my head voice/passagio," now that's better.

How come you still think SLS means to ACTUALLY sing in your speaking voice? It's the sensation and the physical setting that it advocates, and not actually literally singing as you speak. Depending on country/culture it can be quite different, the speaking voice, that is. Finns speak almost exclusively in monotonous chest. If I were to sing like I speak I'd trash myself. I know someone can flame on about how the term "voice" is used to describe the whole act of producing tone, but I think I'm pretty clear on my point.

I think you've misunderstood Tamplin's "it's the law" -thing. You don't "jam" your tongue down to open the throat. That's counter-intuitive, and you should know that much if you've been studying for 6 years. Unless you're just following what people tell you and not feeling/listening to yourself. If you do the exercise and feel (MUCH) tension, you're doing something wrong. Glottal compression is different. Open throat is actually a lot like the whole "intrinsic anchoring" thing and probably feels a lot the same (or that is how I've "bookmarked" the coordination when I want to sound "boomy.") The only muscles I feel are "overworking" during the open throat technique is my pterygoids and masseter, and that's only because my mouth is small and I've a tight jaw. So they're fighting to open as wide as I can.

Also, "Body Compression" just sounds like... Uhh.. Nope, can't think of a nice enough word for it.

You seem like your approach to learning could be better. I think you'll want to start seeing different methodologies and different exercises as pieces of a puzzle, and the end product is your voice. You need to understand what different exercises are supposed to feel like, and how they should carry over to your performance, and how they should be used.

I mean, I think just saying "I studied under so and so and they made my voice so and so" is just flat out retarded. Unless you're studying opera (in which case you'll probably have an obvious reason and interest in studying opera) then it's pretty self-deprecating to say someone made you sound the way you sound. To quote Ricky Gervais on getting fat: "There's plenty of time to back out of the project."

You've had the possibility, and still have, and always will, to say if you don't like something a teacher is making you do. If he's making you lower the larynx to sound like a retard, you can tell him/her you don't like that tone. A bad teacher at this point will tell you "but it sounds better," and a good one will say "alright, let's move to something else" OR give a good reason to why you need to do it. These situations usually arise from lack of a goal or direction in the practice... So again.. What do you want from your voice? Knowing it will establish a direction and you'll avoid doing the wrong exercises.

I guess my post's not really coming together too well, but here's my point:

If you can't make a judgement on what program to use, even with trying out 1 or 2 volumes (which in itself isn't that big of an investment, and 200usd in itself isn't that big if you think in terms of vocal coaching lessons), then you don't really know what you want from your voice, or what the exercises in the programs are supposed to do for you. If you don't know what the exercises are supposed to do to help you, then you've either not understood, listened, can't figure it out on your own by feeling/listening, or the teacher is faulty. I feel the biggest factor is the lack of understanding vocal anatomy, and, through that, physical sensations.

One more thing: I've taken a CVT lesson, and I went in with a very, very direct goal: I wanted to be able to learn supporting myself during songs like "Black." In 40 minutes I had gotten all I needed to know, and I haven't taken a lesson since or ever stressed over support since, it just sorta sunk in. So once you know exactly what you want, even if it's just a small piece of the big picture, you'll know where to look for it. In short: Use the most expensive resources (direct lessons) with very direct and definite goals, and the inexhaustible resources (books, dvds, videos, forums) with all the fervor you can manage.

Also, Owen's a smart dude. Listen to him instead of me. I'd actually been much better off just saying "YEAH! What he said!"

[Owen Korzec]

Khassera, good points though. You covered some things I left out. I think I agree with all that you said. And SLS definitely isn't truly singing like you speak, it just often leads to that misconception.

[Felipe Carvalho]

OppaB are there any samples of your current singing? Mail me if you are not comfortable on going public.

[Danielformica]

id like to throw a little something in here.. Lets just say it is an extension of speech.. An experiment for you speak say an "ah " and maybe an "oo" on a d4 very softly almost non existent with little to know effort. then speak the same pitch but do it loudly with more much more intensity. If you didnt do anything but increase your intensity meaning no squeezing no airiness just a nice loud ah or oo you were probably in falsetto on the first and chest on the second just like when you speak a sentence with alot of emotion and maybe imitating a little girl. Also notice the difference in your oo compared to ah, the oo was much easier on the soft volume light intensity and the ah was im sure much louder than the oo on the high intensity. Don't just pass this off try it a bunch of times not you Felipe

i think you will see singing is an extension of speech it all has to do at what intensity. Just like broadway when a singer speaks then sings then kinda speaksings.;)

[ThePowerOfOne]

I won't get technical, but in my honest opinion singing is not an extension of speech.

To me personally the two feel nothing alike.

From the way the entire body is involved in singing, to the fact they sound nothing alike and it also feels like the sound is coming from different places when singing versus speaking. Singing is an entirely different beast to normal speech.

So if your teacher is telling you singing is an extension of speech that's strike one, and if she's telling you that you don't need an open throat to sing, that's strike two, and if anything she tells you to do hurts, that's obviously strike three. Kick her to the curb and move on.

[Jens]

Well power that depends, some people talk in "singing mode" some dont. Speech is very individual as it is learned by mimicing.

Physicly when your up on highnotes the throat closes when you for instance sing highnotes regardless of "feeling" placement soundcolor or approach.

However the open throat sensation can very well be used but it's also very individual, some need more closure some need less. There are endless ways to find the "sweet spot"

however when you really should listen is when a teacher tells you something you havent heard before or something that contradicts what you already know. Those are the only times you learn something new and you get bang for your bucks. If a teacher only tells you stuff you already know and never shows you new stuff id change teacher.

[gno]

You already have a lot of good advice here. I'll try to sum up some of my thoughts on your topics.

Open Throat: Like Felipe has said, Open Throat is a concept. Certain vowels like "ah" close the throat to form a higher first Formant. Others, like "ee" and "oo" have a low first formant and need more space in the throat. But the concept of Open Throat is more for getting rid of excess tension. It's common, when going high, to use excess tension in the constrictors - this will have the effect of "closing the throat" which will prevent vowel formation, and can be unhealthy. If you can sing without excess tension it gives the "feeling" of an open throat. Don't get hung up on the words. You are taking the words too literally - it's meant to invoke a sensation. You'll find many words that are used in singing that have nothing to do with physiology, but are meant to invoke sensations, since we can't see the actual muscles working.

CVT and Estill and other programs are all great - they just use different terminology to explain what is going on. Looking through different lenses to explain the voice. I like CVT as Catherine has organized the information very logically and completely. Four basic modes: Neutral, Curbing, Overdrive and Edge. I'll speak CVT terms to address some of you other questions.

"Neutral" is lighter singing and doesn't require much vowel modification. You don't need to modify when going high. However, if you want to sing more powerfully, you will need to start to modify vowels - either Curbing or Overdrive. If you don't modify while singing loudly, going high, it can be harmful. To me, Brett teaches Neutral almost exclusively. It is a great mode to learn. But if you want to really belt it out, you will need to do some other things. Tamplin teaches how to belt out very powerful singing.

You ask why can't we sing like we talk? We can with Neutral - but if you want to sing louder - higher - we can't. There are laws of physics that involve the interplay of pitch and vowel formants and acoustical overload, that can't be denied.

If you already have Neutral under your belt, you have a great foundation. Sounds to me you want to take it further. You want to add more weapons to your arsenal. Learn other modes - but don't lose what you learned so far.

[MDEW]

When just reading about techniques and different styles of singing there are a lot of contradictions. There is a concept of OPEN THROAT which makes you think that you must expand you neck at all times. And then you may read of the concept of TWANG which is a kind of squeezing. The truth is your voice can do all kinds of amazing things and sometimes you have to shape the whole apperatice in a different way to get some of those cool sounds.

There are basic concepts to learn. SUPPORT, Providing enough air pressure and vocal cord closure for a given sound. There is no good way to descibe it because it is a balance between a build up of pressure and a holding back of air flow and it is a fluid thing. It changes between type of sound and intensity.

Resonance: General ring and loudness of a tone. When a space is the right size for a given tone the tone will be naturally louder without giving more effort. You may feel a vibration around your lips, Cheeks or between your eyes. Also hard to describe because people feel it in different places. Some will not feel it at all.

Modes of singing/voice charcteristics: Some schools look at modes as frequency of vibration in the vocal folds. example; vocal fry, Full chesty speaking sound, falsetto, whistle. Others look at modes as TYPE of singing. Example; Soft whispery, Loud intense, Sharp screaming, Soft but loud; Mournful/Crying........

So again you have contradictions between terms from School to school.

The exercises tend to be the same between the different schools. The difference may be the objective. The teacher may get you to notice different things while you are doing an exercise. Example; Mum, mum, mum.....

One teacher may use this to help find resonance. The MMMMM will help you find that buzz. Another may use this to help with cord closure. The Uh helps to keep the larynx steady and the MMM helps keep a pressure balance making the folds easier to vibrate. Another may use it to help you find Larynx Tilt/Cry sound again the Uh sound will help keep the larynx in a lower position making it easier for the larynx to tilt when singing higher.

Each of those things may call for a different intensity Support wise and Volume wise to get the desired effects.

So some schools will have you staying soft and quiet while you do the exercise and others will have you singing them loud and somewhat effortful to get the benefits that you are looking for at the time.

So again they SEEM contadictory. It is better if you teacher can tell you what you are trying to strengthen when you do an exercise. Then maybe what seems contradictory may make a little more sense.

[MDEW]

A few more thoughts... The different schools or methods seem contradictory because they have different goals in mind.

Opera; Maximum resonance and beauty.

SLS/SS maxium ease of singing.

Ken Tamplin. Maximum Power, Cut.

TVS. Maxiumum Beef/ Fulness of sound.

(no offence intended to anyone. I am just being breef in assessment.)

Each of these are good systems and they cover everything that you need. Their approach is different because they focus on different goals. The exercises are going to be geared towards the quickest and most efficient path to theirs and your goals.

Another thing about vocal exercises.... They are meant to strengthen individual areas of the singing muscles and focus of sound. Mastering an exercise has nothing to do with making you a better singer.

Singing and learning how to incorperate some of the concepts to make your voice sound better is what will make you a better singer.

Your teacher can only guide you. You have to learn how to incorperate these things.

[Danielformica]

It all has to deal with the pitch your on the vowel your singing and the intensity at which you would like sing <>...

You dont have to take my word for it(or my opinion) when we are talking about speech being an extension of singing just go look at the vocal cords in action on YouTube when someone gets scoped (a laryngoscopy) and see for yourself that nothing changes except when you squeeze real hard for high notes and extremes. Other wise if you speak and sing normally its all the same. Again don't take my word just watch a video on it. It's very enlightening and helps you understand it's much easier than you think. The cords are very small not even an inch in length ,Also nothing big moves the cords, the muscles and cartlidge are very small and only move mm.

One other way to see ,feel and understand singing is an extension of speech. Is any lessons I took or was able to watch a lesson the teacher like myself will say ok now lets to me me me me me me me me me (123454321) and you begin this by just "saying"(speech), me or mah or lah or nah or what ever consonant with a vowel, on all scale patterns.

[MDEW]

It all has to deal with the pitch your on the vowel your singing and the intensity at which you would like sing <>...

You dont have to take my word for it(or my opinion) when we are talking about speech being an extension of singing just go look at the vocal cords in action on YouTube when someone gets scoped (a laryngoscopy) and see for yourself that nothing changes except when you squeeze real hard for high notes and extremes. Other wise if you speak and sing normally its all the same. Again don't take my word just watch a video on it. It's very enlightening and helps you understand it's much easier than you think. The cords are very small not even an inch in length ,Also nothing big moves the cords, the muscles and cartlidge are very small and only move mm.

I agree Daniel. The vocal cords themselves are usually not what the problem is. It is either that we do not have a good idea of what resonance is or what support is.

Vowel and intensity covers a lot of bases. But when you don't know wich way to go, you tend to use the wrong vowel with too much or too little UMPH to it. And get yourself in trouble.

[OppaB]

WOW I love it, all this advice. Thanks. Phew. I'm going to try to address everyone one by one.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Yes, unless you change to another larynx/head when singing, it will be the same you speak with.

Same goes to the notion of "diaphragmatic" breathing. If you are mammal, you do it already.

It does not mean that your spoken voice is capable of singing at a high level, but that the act of singing should be gesture similar to it and that you cant simply ignore the spoken voice as if one thing had nothing to do with the other.

Also that your voice, the one you speak with, will always be present in one way or another on your singing, thats what we do whenever we use a vowel during training.

Its a matter of more control and efficiency, not learning secret moves and magic.

[MDEW]

Understanding, controling and using Resonance and support may not be magic but when you hear someone sing without these things and then hear the same person sing with these things it can sure seem like magic.

[OppaB]

In the future I'm going to edit this forum once I learn a bit more. THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR INPUT. What is twang? Any links to it?

Vowel modification, is it necessary within a vocalist career?

Also if you've had experience with Brett manning program's please share with me, with 4 pillars from Mr. Lunte, did you feel like you needed to take a lesson from Mr. Lunte when you bought his program or was it self explanatory?

@FelipeCarvalho Thanks. Your advice on what it should feel like helps. Yes I will post my sound cloud account on here in the future soon, and no I'm not shy or nervous about it lol. Were all students, people who are learning. It's good we critique each other so when we go to perform, we won't give the audience a bad performance.

@Owen Korzec Do you feel that the open throat should be taught through exercises and developing proper coordination rather than telling someone to just yawn the whole time? Could you elaborate further on this Bernoulli principle that Mr. Lunte taught you? I really feel that it works in the voice, but I rarely hear people talking about it. Have you done SS in the past? I just had a lesson yesterday with one of my favorite coaches and he taught me its important in the voice to have a relaxed -semi low larynx position, that isolated nasal resonance, and making sure I feel that resistance in the vocal cords and practice that in a smooth legato like fashion in some exercises and scales. Its almost exactly like your telling me. I can vocalize past a male high C, and sing almost near that so I don't feel like I need range extension, I'm happy with what I got for now. All your info helped.

@VIDEOHERE If students of a certain method are constantly doing the exercises wrong then the student will have a bad outcome, I've talked with a few people who have wrecked their voices doing exercises from a method they all trusted it. I realized that its not so simple as to just listen and copy along, there is a lot that goes on under the hood and the order of operations needs to be corrected with a vocal coach 1v1 who knows what they are doing. I've found my perfect vocal coach already, but I'm searching still for that method that will allow me to progress without one, but perhaps I should just fall back onto all of my current resources and hope my post didn't come out as dramatic. I'm far from a beginner but without a coach, you can only get so far lol.

@Khassera What has the SS/MM programs done for your voice?When I first ever began SS, just following along the cd, the exercises caused my throat to make a weird popping noise and my throat hurted, I lost a few notes, it was all out horrible. I've had the most improvement in the past with their method when I payed for lessons with the coaches, I hope I didn't come off as if I'm a beginner,ive been to a level of vocal hell, just not all the way there. It's almost like for me, I need a coach 1v1 in front of me or on Skype. Doing back to back scales on a cd, doesn't help me much but lip rolls, and a few others help my voice. I haven't maximized the gains that I thought I would be having. All in all, I'm thankful that I've had guidance on the way. I know of SS students who has hearing issues, wrecked their voice with some of the exercises, also on those forums there really is no moderation so you have a bunch of ego driven students who say their advice is right and then the student's don't really progress to how they should. When I think of SLS, or speech level singing I simply think that I have the same exact personality, voice all throughout my voice. I don't change it up top. I've heard some singers do that and it makes them sound weird/phony not authentic to themselves. I noticed singers who can't really sing keep that speech level essence in their voice and it causes me to keep listening because they are using an authentic part of their voice. Hope that didn't confuse you lol. " I feel the biggest factor is the lack of understanding vocal anatomy, and, through that, physical sensations. " Your absolutely right, I'm going to refer back to this statement whenever I feel like I'm stuck. Thank you.

@Danielformica I got the hang of it, My coach yesterday had me go back and clean up on some foundational things. Making sure I fix those loose screws.

@ThePowerOfOne Although the method I use and practiced most of my singing life is called Speech level singing, I don't really feel that it's an extension of my talking voice, nor do I feel like I'm changing who I am as a singer/person. I can only simply say that It feels Natural. Anything to me that feels and sounds unnatural I usually tend to cut off, unless its the purpose of the exercise.

@Jens thx. Actually I feel like my voice is usually sitting in a certain pocket, Regardless if I have cord closure/compression or not. Sometimes my voice may be airy(lack of that healthy squeeze) but my voice feels always like It's seated in a pocket area. Hard for me to describe lol.

@geno See, I kept thinking of open throat as a technique, I was reading online and others made it seem like if you don't yawn while singing they your whole entire vocal career will be wrecked in the future. lol I find that by me simply keeping my voice in a certain pocket, and just leaving the outer areas of my cords alone. I don't really seem to strain or have external tension at all. I can credit brett manning MM/SS. It's perfect for removing out strain. Yes, just like said. I've gotten that Neutral foundation but I wanted to take it to the next level. Do you have the CVT book, and have you ever had skype lessons with CVT? I don't wanna travel to Europe just to learn. Has the main lady, the director. I forget her name, have you ever heard her sing live? I can't seem to find a video of her singing live.

@MDEW Yes your reading my mind right now lol. When I think of Resonance shifting I think it's a byproduct of a proper coordination that you've trained into the cords. In the past, I used to go directly for trying to feel a resonance shift which only messed my voice up. You can thank others on the SS forum, for that. Personally I think all these modes(titles) are a stumbling block to someone like me and maybe others. I like the simply terminology. Chest, Mix, Head(falsetto if no you have no squeeze), and lastly whistle. What do you think?

Your assessment is spot on. Before SS/SLS I never even heard of the other methods. One thing lacking from SS is that mention of support, I think it's a con. Once I learned support via ken tamplin. I found I can have more stabilization in my voice and my air pressure is more managed. Thank you so much, You really helped lay everything out there. Yes I have that ease that SS promise, now I'm in the process of mastering that cord closure or what people call (bringing the arytenoids together when singing at a higher volume/intensity.) When I talked to a few people about KTVA before I bought VOL.1, they mentioned that Ken tamplin has these veins sticking out the side of the neck when singing. Is that a sign of external strain or are those veins harmless?

Yes I agree as well, I think if someone can speak normal and yelling at someone across the house I think their cords are normal. What we train are those muscles around those vocal folds. This just brought up something in my mind, in Brett manning program MM, he has edge exercises to help the cords out, like vocal fry. What are your thoughts on that. Vocal fry It helps relax my voice and the overall energy, works like a vocal cool down or works to get all the mucous off my voice when warming up.

:cool: