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no, brother ron, i'm not taking it that way...i'm not annoyed at all.

jens,

let me work on it more.....i have to drop it down a full step to even get close.

Sing it in original key, how can i be of any help if i dont get an idea of what you do "wrong"? Basicly i wanna hear you fail :)

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I agree with Jens. If you want help in finding the problem or even finding what you are doing right, what needs to be heard is how it is now. The good and the bad. It may be just the fact that your natural sound is different, not the way you are singing.

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If you can get the same acoustic sound with different physiology how can you say what technique a person is using if using CVT terms? Wouldn't the term Technique imply a physical setup of some kind?

I have read that Curbing is a cry with hold( Physical setup). In a cry The thyroid cartilage and Cricoid are drawn closer together in the front stretching the vocal folds. Creates a thinner sound. In Estills cricoid tilt the Thyroid cartilage and the cricoid are further apart in the front. Also stretches the folds but allows for a fuller sound.

I am not stating facts. I am asking questions. I do not know which or if any of these statements are true.

MDEW,

What I meant is that the pedagogy used by CVT is focused on sound (acoustics) and Estill focuses on the different muscles involved (physiology) in their pedagogy. :)

The various tilting in regards to voice quality is not very well understood and it might not even happen. Especially the cricoid tilt. One of the main factors in Curbing (or cry) versus Belting is the adduction of the vocal folds - the closed quotient (CQ). :)

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Martin, what I hear is just low resonance volume and more source. So what I do is raise the larynx as much as I can and correct the sound quality with the vowels (which is the same of head voice, without the larynx compensation).

Is this the same unballance you are describing? Because I sincerely never heard demonstration of distortion creating that, its always more the "cookie monster" thing, which is cool but would not fit well.

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Bob, please post your vocals soon :) . You're a good singer so there is nothing to fear. Not that there would be a problem if you sucked. Last time I heard you sing, the only potential problem you had was the tendency to over compress when doing the cry sound in curbing/mixed voice - i.e. overdoing the effort.

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Is this the same unballance you are describing? Because I sincerely never heard demonstration of distortion creating that, its always more the "cookie monster" thing, which is cool but would not fit well.

There are lots of ways to create distortion. The "cookie monster" thing (if I remember his voice correctly) is mostly done by opening the glottis slightly and push enough air through it to get the false folds to vibrate. This is also what Rob uses in his Child in Time cover for example and which he calls "respiratory bleed".

But you can also get the false folds to vibrate by going the opposite way: If you narrow the area above the true folds so much that the "normal" airflow that makes the true folds vibrate also activates the false folds.

Then there is what CVT calls creaking which happens if you leave "the center" of a certain mode and the fold vibration becomes irregular, creating some noise. This may be what you are doing in the third clip. You sing with a high larynx and probably lots of narrowing, going into the direction of the "Edge" vocal mode. But at the same time you are using the vowels of Curbing.

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No you did at first, when I asked about the distortion. Now you say that distortion that I supposedly didnt use is the reason why it sounds more intense.

Really strange, but my interest in the terminology you are using is gone since its clear to me you are a bit confuse about your own ideas. You can read back my postings to understand what I am saying if you are interested. Or not, all the same. ;)

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Felipe,

I believe you are misinterpreting what I said. I clearly stated the first time and acknowledged that you were using distortion in your third clip (#51) as a respond to your question about Curbing:

Yes, your new clip is still Curbing, but you are now creating distortion by being a bit unbalanced or using a bit false folds. However, it sounds like you chose to do so. :)

I never changed my view as you imply. :)

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folks,

i will......been a little down lately.......business is extremely slow......kind of takes the energy out of you.

the one thing that's really killing the industry is the free adult on the web.

the companies have little money to make new movies.

i made a sign in the store....

"the more we watch free, the less there is going to be."

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Martin was consistant throughout his posts. The only distortion that I heard on the third clip was the first "Know" and a couple of times on " I ". The rest seemed to be the same style and intensity comparing second and third clips.

Martin, I was aware that CVT focuses on the Sound rather the the physiology but they do at least hint at the physical makeup of the sound.

Through different sources the demonstration of the cry was accompanied by a closeup of the larynx and was pointed out that the thyroid cartilage tips forward and at a downward angle as opposed to resting position. It was also pointed out that the gap between the thyroid and cricoid cartilages was smaller than at resting.

When I found a demonstration of what Estill calls the cricoid tilt The gap between the Thyroid cartilage and the Cricoid was again pointed out and shown to be wider than at resting point.

I also agree that it is better not thinking of these things. The sound itself can guide the physical coordinations.

But when you cannot make those sounds it is useful to know what causes them.

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The only distortion that I heard on the third clip was the first "Know" and a couple of times on " I ". The rest seemed to be the same style and intensity comparing second and third clips.

mdew I am saying it is very different to execute it like that, now, you may think that I am making up it, or maybe that I am interpreting a wrong feeling. Just fine.

So you are saying that it does not sound more intense. Fine too. My point fails. What is the use of a different execution to result on the same sound? :P

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I am not saying that it was not a different execution. My ears are not refined enough to tell the difference.

If different executions can lead to the same underlying sound that shows my perception and understanding to be faulty.

I am learning and questioning my own perceptions. Not questioning anyone else. :)

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mdew, come on man refined ears? The Emperor's New Clothes?

Its very, very simple. As I said there is a major difference in execution, as I also said, its still a "kind" of head voice. As I have also mentioned, I dont think that in this song its very relevant.

So does the difference results in more intensity, yes or no? Thats the expected result. If its more intense, great!, if not, fail.

Now if you listen to it as being more intense, as Rach says it is, and wants to theorize about it and assign fancy words, great too. Just know that the distortion is not the difference. Neither is the resonance.

Thats of course not according to CVT, its according to me, the guy who happens to have executed that thing :)

The difference is that I am not trying to tell Lou what he did either hahaha.

Now tell me it isnt curious to say the least :P

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It is all in the perception of the listener. Just because there is grit does not have to denote power or intensity.

Low and calm is sometimes more intense than loud and grating.

Only Lou knows what he was doing if anyone does. Just as you sang the phrases different each time Lou may sing it different depending on what his mood is on a given performance.

As for refined ears, You may be able to tell whether Pavarotti is covering or belting. I cannot.

If the Emperor is naked I will either tell him to put on clothes or praise him for his lack of humility. :) Unless the emperor is a woman then I will just stare blankly.

I would like to hear the full version of "I wanna know what love is". Which ever way you want to sing it. Second and third clip was intense enough to get the job done.

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Excellent vid, Bob. And even though Ken does not sound like Lou, I think he was singing with the same feeling, primarily through control of dynamics. Because that IS what Lou does. Vary the dynamics depending on where he is in the song.

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Is there a diffence in CVTs curbing and Estills belting?

Estill belting, from my understanding, it more akin to CVT "overdrive". Although CVT overdrive includes thick fold singing with a lower larynx position. In Estill they call this "opera" quality. Belting quality requires a higher larynx.

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Bob - I always thought that Ken uses a similar weight as Lou, and this song illustrates that very well. They have lots of differences in tone and style of course, but there are many similarities. Was that you who he dedicated the song to?

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Bob - I always thought that Ken uses a similar weight as Lou, and this song illustrates that very well. They have lots of differences in tone and style of course, but there are many similarities. Was that you who he dedicated the song to?

Yep, that's what I was saying: I think Ken's technique is very similar to Lou's. Ken's natural voice is just a little bit lower, so he sounds different, but the technique is very similar I think.

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