incapability

[VideoHere]

yes geno......yes benny, yes ron...

this song is so much about maintaining support and balance. if you punch it just a little too much (the chorus) it all just falls apart.

i still don't have it where i feel it's consistently decent. but man, has singing this tune taught me a lot about how to control and narrow.

this is a song i feel all singers should try at least once.....

i see a few edits in ken's video......i know for me it's tough to stay consistently strong throughout it, and if you overdo things you're dead.....lol!!!!

might be able to meet lou at the chiller convention in october.....hoping anyway.

[Jens]

Im a 100% sure you sound alot more like lou than ken tamplin. You are just fanboying as i said, you post something like this every 3months

Admit it, it just plain pisses you off you cant sing every lou song

Im saying this cause im just like you, but with other vocalheroes(Jorn lande,Daniel heiman) i also have that feeling they have something "magic"about their tone that none other can copy.

But it's not true... :p

[VideoHere]

yeah, you're probably right jens...but like you i don't give up...i just keep trying to figure it out...lol!!!

really, it's part of the fun too...lol!!!!

i'm fascinated by some singers where you're so impressed...right?

[Jens]

exactly, i mean no one on this forum knows more than you on how to sound like Lou. We should be asking the questions, not you.

I also think the answer is often very simple, both you and me are searching for some magic ingredient something we missed in our practice be it support, placement, appogio, other fancy terms...

But the answer is often painfully obvious and irritating, it's not about voicetypes or genetics it's just plain "Im not as skilled as Daniel Heiman and Jorn yet"

It's often very hard to take that in as we often want some excuse "my voice is not like his, he has something special that i lack blablabla"

I used to belive in that but i realise now more than ever im not just skilled enough yet.

Cheers bro

[MDEW]

Sing with YOUR Passion and YOUR soul. Let Lou ask "How do they sing like that!" :D

[Jens]

Isnt that a no brainer?

How many dont sing with their passion and soul?

[Felipe Carvalho]

You can always collect a few and save it for a time of need ;)

[Jens]

Honestly dont you think bob would choose to sing with lou gramms passion and lou gramms soul? Isnt that the point of this thread? ;)

[MDEW]

Isnt that a no brainer?

How many dont sing with their passion and soul?

All of us who are still trying to sing like someone else. Or think that we do not sing good enough because we don't sound like someone else or have the Timbre of our heroes voice.

Just a way to say embrace your own sound and sing your way.

[Jens]

Thats where we differ, i dont think we have an "own" sound moreso than primalsounds wich can be used to helo singing but still not to the extent that we have our own sound.

Your "own" timbre is mimiced, why not mimic someone you fancy instead?

I say find out what you like then do those sounds, if you cant train until you can. If you mimic axl rose or a dog or a horse or Lou gramm those sounds are as much your voice as the sounds you use for speaking, as the sounds you normaly sing with ect ect.

[MDEW]

Thats where we differ, i dont think we have an "own" sound moreso than primalsounds wich can be used to helo singing but still not to the extent that we have our own sound.

Your "own" timbre is mimiced, why not mimic someone you fancy instead?

I say find out what you like then do those sounds, if you cant train until you can. If you mimic axl rose or a dog or a horse or Lou gramm those sounds are as much your voice as the sounds you use for speaking, as the sounds you normaly sing with ect ect.

Yes we can mimic all kinds of sounds and voices, raspiness, grit All of that But what ends up getting people stuck is that the grit or rasp doesn't have the timbre of someone else. Neil Young will never match the Timbre of Lou Gramm. Lou Gramm will never match the Timbre of Neil young. The passion, the grit, the range? Yes.

[Jens]

Because they never will go down that route, Lou gram and neil young had completly diffrent vocal heroes than each other and an other enviroment.

Ok look at my favourite singer Jorn Lande... What's his influences? His vocal heroes is David coverdale and dio... And how does he sound? Well... Like a mix of coverdale and dio... Howcome? You think he sounded like that right off the bat?

[ronws]

Ok look at my favourite singer Jorn Lande... What's his influences? His vocal heroes is David coverdale and dio... And how does he sound? Well... Like a mix of coverdale and dio... Howcome? You think he sounded like that right off the bat?

At least, it sounds like that, to you.

So, let me hear you sound just like Steven Perry, so much so that even SP, himself, would think, "Who is linking in my video?"

I agree with you, Bob starts a thread about Lou every so often. And has analyzed more about Lou than anyone else. Even those who have covered a Foreigner song and posted it here (once or twice.)

Where you and I differ, Jens, even though I agree with you on a LOT of stuff, including not limiting one's self by "definitions,' is that each voice is unique. And yes, a lot of it does come not from the structure of the voice but the environment. Such as fellow texans being able to tell instantly that I was NOT born in Texas. But I don't think that is the whole answer.

All that means is that I do not have all the nasality and dipthong stretching of someone born in Texas. It does not mean that I can sing basso profundo. And I simply cannot except that the structure of humans in evolution would lead you and me to have such great differences in height and mass but absolutely no difference in vocal structure. I don't think it has been definitely proven that every voice is exactly the same in range and ability, affected only by environment.

To me, that is as much a matter of faith as there is in the "magic pill" technique, when the "magic pill" is actually just consistent work and exploration.

But I do agree that Bob, more than anyone, could probably get the "Lou" feel but perhaps, he will not accept that he can. Sometimes, having an unattainable goal is easier to handle the finding yourself there, all along.

I as going to apologize for bringing in the mental thing but oh, well, there it is.

[Jens]

I dont wanna sing like steve perry (no offence), also it's not easy to copy a sound or a style.

But it can be done if you practice correct...

Also there is already a guy who sounds like Perry singing in journey now, it's hauntingly close

But i guess he was Born with an unique voice that sounded just like perrys... Or prehaps he have mimiced perry?

I dont practice as much as i could, i dont practice as smart as i could, im no perfect student still ive gotten great results... If i could do verything perfect practice, get the right exercises the right routines completly perfect I know i could sound the way i want.

Thats my point...

People like to lock themselves and search for a vocal identity and make up excuses.

The voice I started out with is since loooong gone both in speaking and singing, it was unrefined and i would have hurt myself specialy my speakingvoice if I continued to use it the way it was.

I had to go to a logopeadic and learn to talk in a diffrent way from my normal way of speaking.

Also Ofc there will be diffrence in vocalstructure, sinuses ect but the folds and the functions are very close... Add to the fact that we will never reach our full potential in regards to range, tone quality, musicality. As you always can improve and do stuffs better more efficient.

[MDEW]

The improvement and change in voice quality is not what I am disagreeing with. I am not even saying some people cannot get extremely close to anothers sound and style. I have heard Elvis impersonators who you cannot tell whether it is elvis singing or not. But the closest one that I have ever heard oddly enough was also from Tupelo Mississippi and he was not an impersonator. He just sang in the same style and had the same timbre. Which does coinside with the environmental and cultural theory of voice charateristics.

I am not even saying to not mimic everyone you can think of. Only that some voices will not be able to mimic certain other voices convincingly.

[Martin H]

Martin was consistant throughout his posts. The only distortion that I heard on the third clip was the first "Know" and a couple of times on " I ". The rest seemed to be the same style and intensity comparing second and third clips.

Martin, I was aware that CVT focuses on the Sound rather the the physiology but they do at least hint at the physical makeup of the sound.

Through different sources the demonstration of the cry was accompanied by a closeup of the larynx and was pointed out that the thyroid cartilage tips forward and at a downward angle as opposed to resting position. It was also pointed out that the gap between the thyroid and cricoid cartilages was smaller than at resting.

When I found a demonstration of what Estill calls the cricoid tilt The gap between the Thyroid cartilage and the Cricoid was again pointed out and shown to be wider than at resting point.

I also agree that it is better not thinking of these things. The sound itself can guide the physical coordinations.

But when you cannot make those sounds it is useful to know what causes them.

MDEW, Is it possible that you can link to those sources you talk about because I have yet to see some evidence that the various

tilting is happening in regards to vocal quality.

[ronws]

I dont wanna sing like steve perry (no offence), also it's not easy to copy a sound or a style.

But it can be done if you practice correct...

Also there is already a guy who sounds like Perry singing in journey now, it's hauntingly close

But i guess he was Born with an unique voice that sounded just like perrys... Or prehaps he have mimiced perry?

I dont practice as much as i could, i dont practice as smart as i could, im no perfect student still ive gotten great results... If i could do verything perfect practice, get the right exercises the right routines completly perfect I know i could sound the way i want.

Thats my point...

People like to lock themselves and search for a vocal identity and make up excuses.

The voice I started out with is since loooong gone both in speaking and singing, it was unrefined and i would have hurt myself specialy my speakingvoice if I continued to use it the way it was.

I had to go to a logopeadic and learn to talk in a diffrent way from my normal way of speaking.

Also Ofc there will be diffrence in vocalstructure, sinuses ect but the folds and the functions are very close... Add to the fact that we will never reach our full potential in regards to range, tone quality, musicality. As you always can improve and do stuffs better more efficient.

And I agree with you on everything here except for one thing. Arnel Pineda sounds similar but he does not sound just like Steve Perry. but it's close enough for the fans. There are a few slight differences. And whether it is technique of structure, we'll continue to argue.

But everything else you said was spot on. People do limit themselves. I also think they limit themselves when they think they need to sound this or that one singer, instead of whatever singer they could be. Then, again, I have this gi-normous ego that thinks my voice is valid and worth hearing, just like anyone else's. But it occurs to me that some people's egos are suffering from a need to be compared to someone else.

And yes, we all have certainly improved our voices over time, with whatever practice that we do. Mine made me sound like Ron, but higher and louder, rather than sounding like this or that singer.

[gno]

Ok look at my favourite singer Jorn Lande... What's his influences? His vocal heroes is David coverdale and dio... And how does he sound? Well... Like a mix of coverdale and dio... Howcome? You think he sounded like that right off the bat?

Exactly. This is Stylistic Development. And it is repeated over and over in all famous artists. Artists don't develop in a vacuum.

Voice is no different than an instrumentalist who's style ends up being a mix of their favorite artists. Neal Schon loved Clapton and Hendrix. Neal's own style is on a whole new level, but it is heavily influenced by his heroes.

Steve Perry was influenced heavily by Sam Cook. Do they sound exactly the same? No. But when you listen to Sam you can quickly hear many nuances that Steve used in his own style.

My vocal style is a combination of Steve Walsh and Gino Vannelli. Bob's style is obviously going to be influenced by Lou Gramm. Jens coming from Jorn Lande.

[MDEW]

MDEW, Is it possible that you can link to those sources you talk about because I have yet to see some evidence that the various

tilting is happening in regards to vocal quality.

The sources that stand out are various Youtube demonstrations. Tony O'hora, Dave Brooks when demostrating and Giving an Idea of what they mean by cry and what is happening with the larynx.

For cricoid tilt the only time I have found a demonstration or a way to find it was in this video by Tom Burke.

Around the 48:30 mark. It is hard to find demonstrations of Estill figures.

No these are not published and approved by the scientific community. But they demonstrate what is meant by the terms cricoid tilt and cry tilt and the difference between them.

And it may be obvious and automatic just by crying and shouting but for someone who is not accustomed to crying or shouting it is very informative.

Also found this. Still not from Published authoritative study.

Re: Tilting/not tilting etc.

by Frith Trezevant - Tuesday, 24 October 2006, 10:40 PM. Hi Christina

'Thyroid tilt' doesn't refer to the thyroid gland, but the thyroid cartilage, which is a part of the larynx. If you have had your thyroid gland removed, you can still move the cartilage which lies just under where the gland is - or where yours used to be. The word, 'thyroid' means 'shield' and this cartilage is so named for its shape.

There are nine cartilages in the larynx - voice box. If you put 'larynx' into google, you will probably find lots of pictures and video of the working larynx. The thyroid cartilage sits on top of the cricoid cartilage, and when you look at it front on it looks like a smiling face with nose, eyebrows and grin but without eyes!

When you make a whimpering sound, or the sound of an adult sobbing quietly, or a cat miaou, the crico-thyroid muscle goes into action. It moves the thyroid forwards and downwards in relation to the cricoid cartilage, and so stretches and lengthens the vocal folds.

It also destabilises the larynx somewhat as a structure, and this is thought to be a contributing factor to the gentle larynx movement which accompanies this kind of vibrato. There is an emotional connection with vibrato too, which is underlined by this sort of voice production, as we humans tend to associate a wavering tone or trembling with emotional intensity.

The sirening exercise, so often mentioned in these pages, is one way to access thyroid tilt, and also to extend your range. You sing the sound at the end of the word 'sing' (ng without a vowel, so the sound is created with the bulk of the tongue against the roof of the mouth, with the notes coming out down your nose). Glide up and down through your range without consciously pitching. You may find that you can go further up in your range quite easily like this. If you put your hand (gently) around your throat and cry, miaou, moan, you should be able to feel your thyroid cartilage pressing forward into your hand. The feeling in the throat is of increased intensity. Some people can't easily feel the larynx tilting forward, but are aware that it has moved back into position after this manoevre.

Best wishes

Frith

From this web post.

http://www.singing-teachers.co.uk/courses/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=245

[ronws]

Jens' posts always make me think, getting all three of my brain cells working. Yes, we can absorb influences. And true, we do not need vocal identities. I was reading Travis North's article on tessitura and it really drove home to me some aspects of what Jens has written, even points that Felipe has made.

A tessitura, such as might be described by "helden tenor," applies to a range of notes required in a piece or role to be performed with a certain consistency of tonailty and dynamic control, as well as sustainability for the performance, as well as for the run of performances, the frequency of shows, how many shows in a week, for how long. That is, helden tenor is more about the role to be sung than it is the singer. Except to say that a singer is cast who can do that role convincingly, acoustically (even if the stage is mic'd) for the endurance required.

And I think we can say the same of "rocktenor." Rock tenor is not so much a singer as it is a tessitura, of sorts, in rock music. A certain range of notes expected, with certain tonalities and dynamics involved.

So, Jens was right, don't stifle yourself with what you think your voice "must" be. Whether that description is applied to you or is a sound ideal you have imposed upon yourself. Like the coach said, be a singer.

And so, I am not a tenor, classically. Especially as I am not training for opera and I am not cast in any opera. I am not a rocktenor, even though I sing rock music. I am a guy who has a light, bright voice and can sing whatever I please, whether it pleases others or not, which of course, cannot be ignored. Yes, there are certain expectations of sound.

In 1982, I saw Kansas perform. Steve Walsh had left and the new singer was John Elefante. Able to sing the entire catalog and could do a few notes higher than Steve, I think. But just not the same. Good show, good performance, just not the same. (I had a t-shirt from that show and wore it until it just fell apart, a few decades later.)

And what helped me realize these things is, again, the interview with Robert Edwin and the move toward vibratory descriptions, rather than ancient words steeped in cultural expectations.

So, Felipe is right, Jens is right.

I am not a tenor. Or baritone. Or basso. I am a singer. That being said, I do think I have more success when I do a song that matches my voice, as it is, better than other songs and expectations of those songs.

Peace out ...

[VideoHere]

jen, you're spot on with those comments....thanks for turning me on to jorne..great vocalist

geno, man what a combination steve walsh and gino vanelli

i love walsh.....i find a lot of similarity between gramm and walsh in terms of power and intensity.

brother ron, emulating others is what's all about to me...not losing yourself in them, but taking from them? absolutely.

[MDEW]

Supposedly the the cry or Thyroid tilt which stretches and thins the vocal folds would make the thyroid cartilage or adams apple easier to see on a man. If you watch Lous' adams apple while he sings and goes higher in pitch the adams apple dissappears. You can almost make out a depression there instead of seeing the adams apple clearer. As if he is somehow pulling it inward towards his spine.

Is this helpful or harmful to know this? Is this really what is happening? I do not know. I am only making observations.

[MDEW]

In keeping with the other posts that are going on here. I also Agree to take whatever aspects of other singers that you can and incorperate them into your singing. Always strive for progress and do not think that you cannot make the sounds that you want to. Just do not hold yourself back because you do not have the same Timbre of another artist that you admire.

[gno]

geno, man what a combination steve walsh and gino vanelli

i love walsh.....i find a lot of similarity between gramm and walsh in terms of power and intensity.

Yes - Walsh and Gramm are very similar in power and intensity. Love them both.

I think it makes for an interesting composite style when you combine artists from totally different Genres. Gino Vannelli was heavily influenced by Frank Sinatra and other jazz singers, but also from the music of Debussy and Ravel. Gino's style is very unique. Gino and Steve Walsh are pretty far apart from each other - but I love both their styles.

The cool thing is that you gravitate towards what turns you on, and a lot of times comes from a combination of different genres. You mix them up in a pot for 10 years and out comes your own unique soup!:D

[gno]

In keeping with the other posts that are going on here. I also Agree to take whatever aspects of other singers that you can and incorperate them into your singing. Always strive for progress and do not think that you cannot make the sounds that you want to. Just do not hold yourself back because you do not have the same Timbre of another artist that you admire.

Spot on!