Trivia

[ronws]

jonpall suggested a separate thread for trivia, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Deep Purple had another singer before Ian Gillan. This singer went on to form his own band, named after a ridiculous name for a part of his anatomy. That singer is David Coverdale and the band is Whitesnake.

Actor Michael McKean, formerly on the show "Laverne and Shirley," is a singer and songwriter. He wrote and performed much of the material in "This is Spinal Tap" and "A Mighty Wind."

Actor Keannu Reeves had a band called Dog.

Actor Tony Geary, from the soap operas, has played the title role in a version of the play, "Jesus Christ, Superstar."

Actor Ewan McGregor does much of his own singing, from "Velvet Goldmine" to "Moulin Rouge."

Melissa Etheridge once said in an interview that she got some of her hoarsest vocal towns by waiting until her voice was hoarse, either from shouting at a sporting event or having a cold.

David Lee Roth had a similar approach for some of his lowest gravelly bits. He would only go out on Friday nights for one or two drinks and a few cigarettes (he never smoked at any other time) and then go in the studio, his voice ragged out and get "impossibly" low. I have his memoirs, "Crazy from the Heat," where you can read it directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak. For the ability to perform, they had they "craziest" clause in their contract for shows. No brown M & M's, ever. If there were, that means the production crew didn't read the contract and Van Halen didn't have to pay. Why was this important? Because the stage and clearances must be to specific dimensions for Dave's acrobatics. Over 6 feet tall and able to jump over 5 feet in the air, he needed a stage built with some rebound and enough clearance overhead. Once, a stage was built to high and his beginning jump of the drum riser caused him to hit his head on an overhead lighting rack and caused a scalp laceration. He has gone by himself before a show and sanded, finished and cleaned the stage himself. He had to wear leg braces until the age of 11. At which time, he got into Kenpo Karate. He has a 2nd degree black belt in the style. But even so, especially on tour, he is in constant pain from his feet, especially. He is an example of the old adage, one that Axl Rose follows. Everyone parties except the singer.

The singer's body is his instrument and it must be cared for, as if it were a guitar or saxaphone, or what-have-you. When you saw Roth on stage guzzling from a bottle of Jack Daniels whiskey, that was actually tea. Per his own words, there is no way you can do what he does unless you are stone cold sober. The bottle of Black Jack is a set piece for image.

Roth also sees the voice as a muscular instrument that must be trained. He would get into arguments with Eddie Van Halen in later years when there was talk of having Roth come back. Roth wanted to know what the set list was. In his view, some of the songs he had not sang in a few years and he needed to train his voice to the songs as being played now and what to do to make the show. Whereas Eddie just wanted a set list anyone could sing. Well, great. But any singer would need to train to that set list. It was Eddie that abused drugs and alcohol. Not until Eddie dried out from rehab could they actually get back together.

As I pointed out elsewhere, Roth's big influences were big band jazz singers such as Al Jolson and Mel Torme.

Axl Rose is a world unto his own. He often travelled separate from the band. And slept on a different schedule. He is a perfectionist. But he is not a dictator. One of the reasons for so many band member changes in the last 12 years is that he doesn't believe in holding a person down. If they really want to go and do something, do it and God bless you. That being said, he is the legal owner of the trademark and band name, Guns and Roses. Co-songwriters Saul Hudson (Slash) and Duff McKagan signed away their rights back in the early 90's. However, they share copyright to a large chunk of the songs and Rose saw to it that they got their royalties, after a mix-up in the paperwork. That is why Slash could perform "Sweet Child of Mine" with Fergie from the Black-eyed Peas on the vocals.

When you see Axl grimace on stage, that is not just a pose for dramatic effect. It is to arrange his throat to resonate the higher notes. The move he does where he sways his upper body while only bending from the waist is for the same reason. I was one of the few to notice a similarity in his timbre and that of Janis Joplin and that was wholly by accident. I was listening to the radio and they played a Joplin sung immediately followed by a Guns and Roses song. I can hear in his voice quite a bit of twang and some distortion.

Why are many singers reluctant to talk about the developement of their sound? Probably for a similar reason to Eddie Van Halen's secret. A trade secret, so to speak. For quite sometime, Eddie played with his back to the crowd. Not because he was shy. He didn't want people seeing the two-handed technique. Also, in interviews, he has purposely lied about how he made Frankenstein, the signature red Stratocaster that he started out with. Recently, he teamed with a guitar maker and the actual construction techniques he used are patented by him. In the same vein, I think, singers do that, too. It's their special trick, their money-maker, and they don't want to be eclipsed by "copy-cats."

Singer John Fogerty still owns the band name Credence Clearwater Revival. So, the rest of the band still plays under the name Credence Clearwater Revisited and they singer, also named John, sounds very much like John Fogerty.

[jonpall]

"Hollywood Rose - Reckless Life 1984 studio demo" - young Axl Rose, for those that are interested:

:)

[ronws]

His nasally tenor immediately recognizable, Freddie Mercury also had the showmanship to be the "frontman." What is not normally known is that Brian May can sing, with a somewhat raspy blues tone. But the highest notes, such as the ones in "Bohemian Rhapsody" were sung by drummer Roger Taylor. Freddie Mercury was born in Lebanon and his parents were lebanese but they immigrated to Great Britain and Freddie grew up speaking an upper crust british accent. Early exposure to both opera and groups such as the Beatles, I think, are part of what formed his unique sound and singing style. Sort of a new "classical music." Everyone in Queen had a college degree.

Speaking of another college band. The Rolling Stones. Mick Jagger was an accounting major when he met the remnants of the Yardbirds and Small Faces that later became the Rolling Stones. Some of the other members of those two seminal bands when on to form a band that had no name but brought in a self-styled jazz singer named Robert Plant. An A & R guy heard their demo tape and said, "that band will fly like a lead zeppelin." Mick Jagger was not a trained singer (and it shows) but he was a goofball on stage and that helped things click. He has had a long and controversial friendship with David Bowie, who is a much better and trained singer. Mick essentially sings in baritone and uses falsetto tone to reach the higher notes. That being said, I enjoy the music of the Rolling Stones precisely because of the whole sonic effect. As one commentator put it, the Beatles might be the boys you bring home to meet Mom, but the Rolling Stones were the guys your Mom warned you about. Mick Jagger is proof that you don't have to be the best singer, or have the prettiest voice, or the highest voice to be successful. But you do need a "sound," business smarts (which he has by the truckload), and a certain amount of luck and timing.

Sting (Gordon Sumner) was previously an english teacher and a bit part actor. He is in the movie, "Quadraphenia," based on the album by the Who. Later, he formed the Police and has always had a problematic relationship with guitarist Stuart Copeland. He is known for successfully inserting bits of english lit into pop songs. "... caught between the Scylla and Charybdis..." and "Just like that old man in that book by Nabakov..." He has a timbre I would describe as dusty and I don't know how he gets it.

Sebastian "Baz" Bach was fomerly the singer of Skid Row. Notable hits include "I Remember You", "Youth Gone Wild", and "18 and Life." His natural singing voice these days is actually grittier along the lines of "18 and Life" than the aria-like "I Remember You." He is physically a giant of man, standing over 6 feet and he towers over most everyone. Some might hypothesize that his voice is getting gritty thanks to his fondness for wine. He has written his own hit country song. And another venture in the last couple of years was a reality show called "Supergroup" wherein he sang for a band later called Damnocracy with Ted Nugent, Scott Ian, Evan Seinfeld, and Jason Bonham. He is a dichotomy. Even though he drinks wine, sometimes to excess, he doesn't smoke and he runs regularly, at least a couple of miles a day. He is friends with Ted Nugent and Axl Rose and has been touring lately with Guns and Roses, often doing duets with Axl Rose. In fact, during one social outing, Rose's security staff failed to keep away a violent guy who wished harm upon Axl Rose and Baz jumped in immediately and started pounding on the guy. He has sang on Chinese Democracy and Rose has sang on his solo album.

On the show, "Supergroup," Evan Seinfeld talks of his days as bassist and lead singer of the band, Biohazard. He admits to singing incorrectly and in smoky bars and he did, in fact, do permanent damage to his voice. But he is sill able to write songs and doesn't mind having someone else sing them.

Ted Nugent also sings. And he is the perfect picture of caring for one's body. He eats only meat that he has killed and claims to have not eaten "store-bought" meat since 1969. He is an avid hunter, travelling on foot, and it is why he stays in shape. He says it is how he recharges. From the loud, crazy world of Rock and Roll to the quietness and grandeur of the woods, and back again. Once in a while, he might have a glass of wine or a beer with dinner. And that's it. No smoking, no illicit substances, which also keeps with his status as a deputy sheriff of Genesee County, Michigan, though he now lives near Crawford, Texas. There was a clause in his band contract that you could not be in the band if you smoked anything or showed up drunk or under the influence of anything. He also believes in the body as an instrument, not just for singing, but for expressing your soul in whatever instrument you play, be it voice, guitar, whatever.

I have met Ted Nugent in person at a book signing in Dallas, Texas. I am 6' 6" and I tower over his 6' 1". But he is a gentleman. I have signed copies of his two main books, "God, Guns, and Rock and Roll" and his cookbook, "Kill it and grill it!".

[VideoHere]

jonpall suggested a separate thread for trivia, with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Deep Purple had another singer before Ian Gillan. This singer went on to form his own band, named after a ridiculous name for a part of his anatomy. That singer is David Coverdale and the band is Whitesnake.

Actor Michael McKean, formerly on the show "Laverne and Shirley," is a singer and songwriter. He wrote and performed much of the material in "This is Spinal Tap" and "A Mighty Wind."

Actor Keannu Reeves had a band called Dog.

Actor Tony Geary, from the soap operas, has played the title role in a version of the play, "Jesus Christ, Superstar."

Actor Ewan McGregor does much of his own singing, from "Velvet Goldmine" to "Moulin Rouge."

Melissa Etheridge once said in an interview that she got some of her hoarsest vocal towns by waiting until her voice was hoarse, either from shouting at a sporting event or having a cold.

David Lee Roth had a similar approach for some of his lowest gravelly bits. He would only go out on Friday nights for one or two drinks and a few cigarettes (he never smoked at any other time) and then go in the studio, his voice ragged out and get "impossibly" low. I have his memoirs, "Crazy from the Heat," where you can read it directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak. For the ability to perform, they had they "craziest" clause in their contract for shows. No brown M & M's, ever. If there were, that means the production crew didn't read the contract and Van Halen didn't have to pay. Why was this important? Because the stage and clearances must be to specific dimensions for Dave's acrobatics. Over 6 feet tall and able to jump over 5 feet in the air, he needed a stage built with some rebound and enough clearance overhead. Once, a stage was built to high and his beginning jump of the drum riser caused him to hit his head on an overhead lighting rack and caused a scalp laceration. He has gone by himself before a show and sanded, finished and cleaned the stage himself. He had to wear leg braces until the age of 11. At which time, he got into Kenpo Karate. He has a 2nd degree black belt in the style. But even so, especially on tour, he is in constant pain from his feet, especially. He is an example of the old adage, one that Axl Rose follows. Everyone parties except the singer.

The singer's body is his instrument and it must be cared for, as if it were a guitar or saxaphone, or what-have-you. When you saw Roth on stage guzzling from a bottle of Jack Daniels whiskey, that was actually tea. Per his own words, there is no way you can do what he does unless you are stone cold sober. The bottle of Black Jack is a set piece for image.

Roth also sees the voice as a muscular instrument that must be trained. He would get into arguments with Eddie Van Halen in later years when there was talk of having Roth come back. Roth wanted to know what the set list was. In his view, some of the songs he had not sang in a few years and he needed to train his voice to the songs as being played now and what to do to make the show. Whereas Eddie just wanted a set list anyone could sing. Well, great. But any singer would need to train to that set list. It was Eddie that abused drugs and alcohol. Not until Eddie dried out from rehab could they actually get back together.

As I pointed out elsewhere, Roth's big influences were big band jazz singers such as Al Jolson and Mel Torme.

Axl Rose is a world unto his own. He often travelled separate from the band. And slept on a different schedule. He is a perfectionist. But he is not a dictator. One of the reasons for so many band member changes in the last 12 years is that he doesn't believe in holding a person down. If they really want to go and do something, do it and God bless you. That being said, he is the legal owner of the trademark and band name, Guns and Roses. Co-songwriters Saul Hudson (Slash) and Duff McKagan signed away their rights back in the early 90's. However, they share copyright to a large chunk of the songs and Rose saw to it that they got their royalties, after a mix-up in the paperwork. That is why Slash could perform "Sweet Child of Mine" with Fergie from the Black-eyed Peas on the vocals.

When you see Axl grimace on stage, that is not just a pose for dramatic effect. It is to arrange his throat to resonate the higher notes. The move he does where he sways his upper body while only bending from the waist is for the same reason. I was one of the few to notice a similarity in his timbre and that of Janis Joplin and that was wholly by accident. I was listening to the radio and they played a Joplin sung immediately followed by a Guns and Roses song. I can hear in his voice quite a bit of twang and some distortion.

Why are many singers reluctant to talk about the developement of their sound? Probably for a similar reason to Eddie Van Halen's secret. A trade secret, so to speak. For quite sometime, Eddie played with his back to the crowd. Not because he was shy. He didn't want people seeing the two-handed technique. Also, in interviews, he has purposely lied about how he made Frankenstein, the signature red Stratocaster that he started out with. Recently, he teamed with a guitar maker and the actual construction techniques he used are patented by him. In the same vein, I think, singers do that, too. It's their special trick, their money-maker, and they don't want to be eclipsed by "copy-cats."

Singer John Fogerty still owns the band name Credence Clearwater Revival. So, the rest of the band still plays under the name Credence Clearwater Revisited and they singer, also named John, sounds very much like John Fogerty.

hey ron, this is all very interesting, and i apprecaite the time you put in to writing it, but wouldn't you agree it's really not relevant to the "technique" portion of tmv?

[ronws]

Videohere, jonpall seemed to enjoy it and I didn't know where else to put it. Sorry that I have offended you.

[jonpall]

Yeah, I enjoyed it and I'm sure others enjoyed it also. Keep those stories coming, ronws! VIDEOHERE, I'm not really sure where else this should be put, although I see your point that it doesn't relate directly to techniques. But hey, does it really matter that much? Cheers!

[ronws]

Yeah, I enjoyed it and I'm sure others enjoyed it also. Keep those stories coming, ronws! VIDEOHERE, I'm not really sure where else this should be put, although I see your point that it doesn't relate directly to techniques. But hey, does it really matter that much? Cheers!

Well, I thought that some of the history of these singers might shed light on their technique or sound. But evidently, there is not room in this section for this thread, according to Bob. I don't want to offend the powers that be. And Bob thinks it's a waste of time and space. I wouldn't want to offend Bob.

But I can't promise that I won't sneak in trivia here and there, if I think it is germaine to a topic. Such as how Bob Dylan got his sound, which I think I already explained, elsewhere. But, no more, I guess. I was probably crazy for starting a thread on trivia about singers in a website devoted to singers. Sometimes, I don't know where my head is at.

[VideoHere]

ron, i had absolutely no intention of offending you nor to deprive anyone of your knowledge. if the rest of the forum members want to read it here, so be it. that's cool.

[ronws]

So far, jonpall was the only one really expressing interest but I thought it was worth it, at least for him. But I don't want to be overbearing or wear people down. I have just have a head full of what I describe as useless trivia and sometimes, it leaks out.

[jonpall]

Don't fix the leak, dude. I think you were misinterpreting Bob's intention, lol. It's all good. Btw. do you know any stories on how Lou Gramm got his vocal powers? ;)

[ronws]

No, I haven't known much about Lou Gramm other than people describing as having a golden set of pipes. I do know Jason Bonham, son of John Bonham, plays drums for Foreigner.

I think Gramm uses belting rather judiciously, as in not a lot. Curbing is probably his main technique. Now, someone else could use belting or overdrive and maybe sound similar and it might lead to the conclusion that such is the secret of his voice. But I don't know. I know what I hear and how I might describe it. I might describe what I am doing when I sing along with the song.

I would like to get back to what leads people to their sound, be it a sonic effect with an instrument and more especially how it affects the formation of voice. I can't help but think of a group very forthcoming about their roots. Judas Priest. The members, including Metal God Halford, grew up next to refineries that forged and milled metal, such as iron, alloys, steel. All day, you could hear the grind of machinery, the thump of a drop forge, the scream of metal under stress. Both Glen and KK mention this and it influences their sound to have that pumping, grinding sound, like you might hear on "Turbo Lover." I think that environment (in my own layman's theory) also gave guidance to Halfords voice. His speaking voice is actually sort of low and a little gruff. But I think he learned to hit such soaring highs as an imitation of some of the sounds one hears coming from the steel mills. That, in addition to his own musical preferences. And I can hear twang and overdrive in his voice. He probably found, as some of us do that, with the proper technique, it was easier to sing at the high end and he did quite a bit of that until British Steel. In that album, he comes down out of the clouds somewhat, having melody lines down where normal humans can sing and in his passagio, so that must have been a difficult album for him to do.

But there weren't metal singing coaches back then. If anything, one could say people such as Halford invented it or wrote the book on it or whatever euphemism comes to mind. And I think passagio is more about mixing resonance than actual pitch change.

I also think part of the lack of history on vocalists comes from the problems of journalists themselves. Bon Jovi would have to field more questions about his hair in an interview than anything else, including his musical influences, how he developed the sound he has, etc. I think this comes from a magical and mystical viewpoint of the human voice. The singer is "just born with the talent" which totally ignores the hard work and training that is needed. They will ooh and aah over the guitarist, maybe because you can physically see what is happening with that instrument, whereas you can't see what is happening with a voice. I've seen a journalist, quite rightly so, wax poetic on the drumming virtuosity of John Bonham, marvel at the "wall of sound" Jimmy Page, maybe give a nod to the thundering John Paul Jones. And are totally mystified by Robert Plant. And don't bother to investigate further.

That is, how much singer history would come forth if someone would simply ask the questions?

[ronws]

I saw this tidbit in the vocal health section. It is a rumor that refuses to die, so to speak. It is commonly thought that Mama Cass of the Mamas and the Poppas died from choking on a food item. In reality, she died from heart failure and it was due to a congenital heart defect. This defect was responsible for her weight gain, as it played hobb with her metabolism. Plus, with a weakened heart, she couldn't exercise as most people did. In fact, she small portions of healthy food but her metabolism kept it as weight. She did not die choking on a chicken bone or fish bone or as a result of gluttony. She happened to be eating at the time of the attack but she did not die from choking.

[ronws]

In another case, Karen Carpenter passed away from heart failure, as well. But that heart failure was due to metabolic stresses brought on by her anorexia. She did not starve to death but her anorexic behavior weakened her heart.

[Steven Fraser]

So far, jonpall was the only one really expressing interest but I thought it was worth it, at least for him. But I don't want to be overbearing or wear people down. I have just have a head full of what I describe as useless trivia and sometimes, it leaks out.

Ronws: I am interested, too. We just need another area set up for stuff like this. :-) Just post them... we'll figure out where to put them.

[ronws]

Ronws: I am interested, too. We just need another area set up for stuff like this. :-) Just post them... we'll figure out where to put them.

Thank you for the support. Most forums I have been to have a general section for things not directly related to specific topics. I go to a dog forum and they haev a NDR (non-dog related) section.

A Guns and Roses forum I go to has a whatever section for, indeed, whatever.

[ronws]

Can it be said that other lifestyle factors influence the body and therefore the sound of a singer?

Eric Clapton plays guitar and sings. Back in the early 90's, he quit smoking cigarettes. And it changed his vocal tone. Some people expressed missing his old tone and he said, that's understandable but his health and longetivity were more important. I remembered this because I was reading in another section of this forum a member who had quit smoking and now couldn't seem to control volume and his throat was wearing out and he felt he was putting too much air on his folds and stressing them out. Which is, indeed, likely the case. Some had thought that his folds were still inflamed weeks later from the effects of smoking. I think it was happening for the reason the singer suggested. One thing you get when stopping smoking is that the lung tissue will repair itself and your breathing muscles re-train themselves. You really do have more wind. What felt like a natural push from the lungs while being a smoker now creates more air speed and pressure and could likely stress folds. Essentially, one might have to learn how your specific body breathes again after the cessation of smoking.

Other singers do watch what they do or drink, to preserve their voice. David Lee Roth would only go out on Fridays, and not every Friday. He might have one or two drinks. He might have a few cigarettes. Nothing else but orange juice, water, or tea the rest of the week. His physical fitness is from a combination of his Kenpo Karate practice and dancing, for he had initially moved to California to study dance at a college out there. That is where he met Eddie Van Halen.

In spite of predilection for red wine, Sebastian Bach runs, at least a couple of miles a day.

Other than an occasional beer or wine at dinner, Ted Nugent doesn't drink or smoke or take anything that is not prescribed by a doctor.

In earlier times, after becoming sober, Mick Jagger had a roadie clock him on stage during a normal show. He was covering about 6 miles. So, Jagger developed the habit of running about 6 miles a day to keep his body physically conditioned for the rigors of entertaining on a tour. Bruce Dickinson would, among other things, fence. Sting practices yoga. On the other hand, 20-something years ago, in a cheeky reply to how he prepares for a concert, David Bowie pointed to his Benson and Hedges Lights 100 and a martini. That image had stuck with me. A reporter had been commenting on Bowie's friend, Jagger, and his conditioning for a tour and asked that question of Bowie.

What about supermen, like Prince? At last count, he could play over 24 instruments (on one of his first albums, he played 27 instruments), had approximately a 5 octave range. Composes, plays, and sings in just about any style, from country to hard rock to Minnesota Funk. In addition, he dances. But he is so private that we know nearly nothing about him. He is a vegan and some people might claim that what you eat can affect your health, even your sound.

Obviously, the healthier you are, the more endurance you have, especially for live performances. It's one thing to record one song at home and re-track whatever you need to, whenever the mood or physicality is right, it is another thing to produce the same thing for 1 to 3 hours or longer, every night, for months or years on end. That is one of the reasons Steve Perry left Journey. The were one of the hardest working rock bands and spent about a decade or more on tour, it seems. And like any band, they started out playing clubs and events after working at least 8 hours at a normal job. Per his own words, he was just worn out, spent.

The singers that last are the ones that have received some training, somehow. They have a tendency to warm up first, like a pro athlete warms up before a practice or even regulation game. Singers, like athletes, perform basics over and over again. Singing is a muscular, physical event and continual practice (good practice, it does not good to rehearse mistakes. That's why one good 15 minute session is better than 3 hours of foul-ups) adds to the longetivity. As doctors tell people in my family who are prone to arthritis, "move it or lose it."

[ronws]

In the other thread where I mentioned barking, there is a link to a book by Kenny Werner. I followed the amazon link and read the first page or so, which they offer as a teaser. In it, Werner talks about his tribulations in school. The description is classic ADHD. (How do I know this? I taught electrical work for a while in a program for disadvantage youths, many of whom had been or could have been diagnosed with such a disorder and I had to know of the accomodations one makes for such students and therefore had to detect the signs of such a disorder. Not as a psychiatrist, but as an instructor trying to accomplish my mission.) Not that ADHD is a bad thing, mind you, but it is a way of seeing the world. Prince, as a child was epileptic. A number of celebrities in the entertainment industry are dyslexic. Another myth to clear up, too. Dyslexia doesn't mean that the letters are backwards or that words appear in reversed or jumbled order. Like the lectures described by author Werner, they simply look like so much noise when all put together. It has been found that some dyslexics read quite well if they view text through a color filter, such as red or blue, which may point to an actual brain function thing, akin to color-blindness. So, what does this have to do with singing?

Well, as some musicians approach their craft from intuitive non-standard educations, so do some singers. How many? No telling, as we have already established there is a relative empty void of information when it comes to how singers do what they do or how they developed their sound, leaving us to make inferences or just attribute it to "God-given talent" in lieu of understanding what happened and when. It is fairly common knowledge, at least amongst the followers of blues, that B.B. King can't read sheet music. Never learned, never needed it for what he wanted. Just hit a note in the key of the song and he'll take it from there. Are there natural singers in the same vein, without any lessons or specific instruction that instinctively do what is right to sing well? Sure. We have a saying here. "Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while."

But none of those explanations are satisfying and in some cases, it is a disservice because even a person who has a "natural talent" for something works at it every day, even if they don't think of it as work. "Natural" runners tend to run every day, even when not required to do so. They do it because they enjoy it and can't think of not doing it. I would say the same goes for singers, even those who seem natural at it.

So, some singers have approached from "outside" of a system. And like the bumblebee, totally not suited for flight, flies anyway because it doesn't know it's not suppose to be able to fly, maybe some singers do what they do because of their special perspective, which did not include any idea that they couldn't do it, or, as in the case of ADHD, had already tuned out the droning of those who would tell them what they can or cannot do.

Sometimes, we discuss how we think a singer is doing something. Is he curbing, twanging, distorting, overdriving? I also think that the muscular ability changes over time. Some of these techniques might have been prevalent at the beginning and as the voice trains, become less apparent.

[ronws]

At times, I thought that perhaps Axl Rose was able to achieve some his rasp or vocal distortion through a mic effect but here he is, no special effects, in a bar with West Arkeen, singing "Garden."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Hq-pxnSIY&feature=related

In it, he reveals that he admired the rasp of Rod Stewart though he couldn't get that particular sound in spite of his best efforts. How does one get such a rasp or distortion as that of Axl Rose? And he can still do that sound today, which means he has a way of doing it that doesn't destroy the vocal anatomy.

Here's a sound-check in Rio, back in the day. It sounds like he is up behind the sinus but that doesn't guarantee distortion.

He was simply vocalising, even "riffing" on some lyrics in order to get levels right for aspirants, consonants, etcetera. Once in a while, I think I have come close to this sound by quite a bit of twang but that doesn't mean that is how he is doing it.

And it's still a mystery to me as to how he came up with that sound, what his intention was, or why he tried it once while rehearsing with Hollywood Rose. According to Rob Gardner, they were able to convince him to keep using that sound. Might it be one of the few times he accepted someone's advice? And do we not face the same dilemma? We think we sound one way and someone points out something else and perhaps we can use that advice constructively? And do some singers simply lack the terminology to describe what they are doing? They might be more willing to share their sound if they knew how to describe what they were doing. Can you tell your auto mechanic how you hit a D5, for example? Even better, tell him the difference you make in singing the note clean versus grungy or gritty. Easier said than done.

[ronws]

Here's Guns and Roses at the VMA's introduced by Jimmy Fallon. The performance of "Welcome to the Jungle" sounded breathy for a couple of reasons. By this time, Axl is into his 40's (he is 48 years now) and running across that huge stage. In addition, his monitor earbud is fading out, making it hard to hear himself next to Buckethead. And his mic was also cutting in and out. Technical problems that should have been already handled by the technical crew at the awards show. The second song is from the album Chinese Democracy and more acurrately reflects what he is doing modernly. Less buzzsaw rasp, more of a clean tone. He also slows down the 440 meter sprint, which allows him more air to sing.

[ronws]

In another thread, Bob (videohere) provides an example of going from falsetto to supertwang, twanging so significantly that he produced distortion or a heavy rasp. That might be the very technique that Axl Rose and others like him use to achieve that timbre or tonal quality. I notice that in the lower ranges, such as baritone and even bass, Rose does not twang enough to distort or rasp. I don't know if that's a choice for effect or an inability to twang sharply at the lower end but it could provide pause for thought.

I mentioned earlier that most bands started out working regular jobs and playing gigs after work, when they could get them. I pointed out that David Lee Roth had the lowest paying job, once. Cleaning horse stalls for his uncle for no pay. Roth was also, before making it big, a scrub nurse in an ER in a hospital, which was more in line with the family heritage. His father was a doctor. Roth has also had a radio show and is now a certified New York City paramedic and works at least one weekend a month for no pay, as a donation to the needs of his fellow man.

The lead singer of the Georgia Satellites used to mow lawns for a living. Ted Neeley, originally from west Texas was a drummer that could sing some high notes and somehow, got picked to play and sing the title role of "Jesus Christ, Superstar."

Loretta Lynn really was the daughter of a coal miner.

As noted before, David Byrne of the Talking Heads was an insurance underwriter.

Marilyn Manson was formerly a journalist and a music critic. The one exception to the rule, he decided to put his money were his mouth is.

Rod Stewart used to play what americans call soccer and europeans and south americans call football.

Country singer Charlie Pride used to play semi-pro baseball.

Country singer Terry Bradshaw used to play american football.

Chris Jericho, who enjoys singing, has also been a pro wrestler.

Singer Leif Garrett, other than being on reality shows, has also been a counselor at a rehab clinic, the same one that helped him get clean.

As a number of people know, Bruce Dickinson is also a licensed commercial pilot and piloted the plane that Iron Maiden used on the Flight 666 tour.

Duff McKagan of Guns and Roses, Velvet Revolver, and Loaded, plays bass, guitar, and sings. He is also a business investment writer for Playboy Magazine and some local Seattle, Wa. journals and papers.

Singer and drummer Phil Collins of Genesis and his own solo efforts was originally an actor.

Singer Eddie Money - his real name is Edward Mahoney and he lived in Levittown, Pa and was formerly a New York City police officer, which was the usual career of people in his family. If you lived in the Northeast in the winter time, you too, would wish for "Two Tickets to Paradise."

"Blue Collar Man" by Styx is Tommy Shaw's homage to and ultimate respect for his father. His father worked blue collar jobs, sometimes 2 or 3 at a time, to make the money to fund Shaw's beginning musical career.

Sheryl Crow was formerly a music teacher in public schools.

Donnie Osmond and the Osmonds originally wanted to be a hard rock band. They had hoped to be the next Led Zeppelin. Their song "Crazy Horses" was their original intent and direction. But the influence of their parents, church, and fellow mormon, Andy Williams steered them toward pop and R & B and placed them in soi-disant competition with the Jackson 5. Donnie Osmond has tried a few times to re-emerge in the adult contemporary scene with limited success.

Actress Maureen McCormick of "The Brady Bunch" (Marsha) sings country and western and even has a few albums out.

Aaron Neville spent time in prison and even has a prison tattoo to show for it. A teardrop near the eye.

[ronws]

Slightly off the track trivia with a purpose toward final sound that was and is the magic of Black Sabbath. Ton Iommi, original and still standing lead guitarist of Black Sabbath and, until recently, Heaven and Hell, used to work in the metal shop of a metalworks factory. He operated what is called a metal shear press. it forms and cuts metal. Just before the initial launching of Black Sabbath's success, he had an accident that clipped off the end of three fingertips. They didn't have the reconstructive surgery that we have nowadays. So, he devised some leather protectors to go over the ends of the injured fingers. This created a heavy, buzzy tone when he played guitar and it became his signature sound, especially with the "Devil's Tri-tone" triplet that he would sometimes play. I think this had an effect on the overall sound signature for the band and made Ozzy's voice a perfect fit. What if Iommi could have had his orginal fingertips and played a "cleaner" sound. Would Ozzy's distinctive voice still have been a good fit?

[DJDeth]

Iommi's accident took place on the very last day of his job at the factory. He even planned to stay home this day, but his mother convinced him, that it would be inappropriate, so he did as she said and attended his work place for the last time. After the accident his fingers were so sensitive, that playing guitar caused him pain. He had to tune his giutar down, so that the strings pressure against his fingers wouldn't be so strong. That's another reason for the signature tone of Sabbath.

[VideoHere]

In another thread, Bob (videohere) provides an example of going from falsetto to supertwang, twanging so significantly that he produced distortion or a heavy rasp. That might be the very technique that Axl Rose and others like him use to achieve that timbre or tonal quality. I notice that in the lower ranges, such as baritone and even bass, Rose does not twang enough to distort or rasp. I don't know if that's a choice for effect or an inability to twang sharply at the lower end but it could provide pause for thought.

I mentioned earlier that most bands started out working regular jobs and playing gigs after work, when they could get them. I pointed out that David Lee Roth had the lowest paying job, once. Cleaning horse stalls for his uncle for no pay. Roth was also, before making it big, a scrub nurse in an ER in a hospital, which was more in line with the family heritage. His father was a doctor. Roth has also had a radio show and is now a certified New York City paramedic and works at least one weekend a month for no pay, as a donation to the needs of his fellow man.

The lead singer of the Georgia Satellites used to mow lawns for a living. Ted Neeley, originally from west Texas was a drummer that could sing some high notes and somehow, got picked to play and sing the title role of "Jesus Christ, Superstar."

Loretta Lynn really was the daughter of a coal miner.

As noted before, David Byrne of the Talking Heads was an insurance underwriter.

Marilyn Manson was formerly a journalist and a music critic. The one exception to the rule, he decided to put his money were his mouth is.

Rod Stewart used to play what americans call soccer and europeans and south americans call football.

Country singer Charlie Pride used to play semi-pro baseball.

Country singer Terry Bradshaw used to play american football.

Chris Jericho, who enjoys singing, has also been a pro wrestler.

Singer Leif Garrett, other than being on reality shows, has also been a counselor at a rehab clinic, the same one that helped him get clean.

As a number of people know, Bruce Dickinson is also a licensed commercial pilot and piloted the plane that Iron Maiden used on the Flight 666 tour.

Duff McKagan of Guns and Roses, Velvet Revolver, and Loaded, plays bass, guitar, and sings. He is also a business investment writer for Playboy Magazine and some local Seattle, Wa. journals and papers.

Singer and drummer Phil Collins of Genesis and his own solo efforts was originally an actor.

Singer Eddie Money - his real name is Edward Mahoney and he lived in Levittown, Pa and was formerly a New York City police officer, which was the usual career of people in his family. If you lived in the Northeast in the winter time, you too, would wish for "Two Tickets to Paradise."

"Blue Collar Man" by Styx is Tommy Shaw's homage to and ultimate respect for his father. His father worked blue collar jobs, sometimes 2 or 3 at a time, to make the money to fund Shaw's beginning musical career.

Sheryl Crow was formerly a music teacher in public schools.

Donnie Osmond and the Osmonds originally wanted to be a hard rock band. They had hoped to be the next Led Zeppelin. Their song "Crazy Horses" was their original intent and direction. But the influence of their parents, church, and fellow mormon, Andy Williams steered them toward pop and R & B and placed them in soi-disant competition with the Jackson 5. Donnie Osmond has tried a few times to re-emerge in the adult contemporary scene with limited success.

Actress Maureen McCormick of "The Brady Bunch" (Marsha) sings country and western and even has a few albums out.

Aaron Neville spent time in prison and even has a prison tattoo to show for it. A teardrop near the eye.

ah, ron, gotta do a "gotcha" on this one...i met and sat next to eddie money's mom at one of his concerts in ny, years ago. she looks just like him!!!...eddie money simply worked in the police office as a clerk, but they chose to market him as a police officer. eddie money is favorite of mine from brooklyn, ny.

[ronws]

Cool, Bob. I did not know that. Thanks for correcting the "legend."

I had once heard that Herb of the duet, Peaches and Herb, was a police officer but I have never been able to confirm that, so I have not presented it as such.

An interesting side note. Jon bon Giovanni, singer for Bon Jovi, lives in New Jersey. At the time of 9-11-01, he lived near the Hudson River and could see the smoke rising from the WTC towers I and II. It affected him deeply. Essentially, he felt this was happening in his "back yard."

Jimi Hendrix was once Sgt. James Hendrix, US Army.

Singer/songwriter Ray Wylie Hubbard wrote the country/crossover hit "Redneck Mothers." It became a big hit for Jerry Jeff Walker. Hubbard lives in Texas. He is also a recovering alcoholic. My wife went through AA with him. So, we get to visit and talk with him around his performances. He is the most humble and gentle man you will meet.

Texan musician Shake Russell has been around a while, with a voice reminiscent of Harry Chapin. For a while, his music was the theme music for the local interest show, "Eyes of Texas," hosted by Houston newsman Ron Stone (no relation.) Many years ago, Russell helped an unknown singer named Clint Black write a song called "Nothin' but the Tail lights." That song floated around as a live performance number for a long time before being put on an album.

Actor Don Johnson sings.

Comedian Eddiy Murphy sings.

Comedian Rodney Carrington sings. My favorite is "I think I'm Dancing with a Man."

That's comedian Carrot Top that you see on the dance floor.

How about the other way.

Ted Nugent has made two film debuts. Once, back in 1983 or 1984 as an abusive husband on an episode of "Miami Vice." Most recently, as quiet deputy in "Beer for My Horses." The movie also stars Tom Skerrit, Rodney Carrington, Willie Nelson, Barrry Corbin, and Toby Keith.

Jon bon Giovanni has also acted in a few movies. So did Mick Jagger. Mark Wahlberg started out singing rap as Markie Mark, then he went on to movies. Dolly Parton has been in a few movies, as well.

Randy Travis has appeared in episodes of "Matlock." Johnny Cash has been in a few movies.

Jerry Reed has been in a few movies, most notably, "Smokey and the Bandit" and the sequel.

George O'Dowd aka Boy George and his band appeared in an episode of "The A Team."

The band Guns and Roses had bit parts (non-speaking) in the Clint Eastwood movie, "The Dead Pool." In that movie, Jim Carey plays a rock star filming the video for GnR's song, "Welcome to the Jungle." You see Axl Rose and Duff McKagan and Izzy Stradlin at a funeral. And, you see Slash "accidently" fire a harpoon gun at the wrong time.

Don Henley (the Eagles) has played bit parts, now and then.

[ronws]

Also, David Byrne of the Talking Heads appeared in a movie called "True Stories," which was filmed in Texas.