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CVT with TVS

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Joel72
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Hey, I've been working with Four Pillars for about a month and a half and I'm wondering if there would be any advantage to having CVT to work with as well. For example, would it help to know the CVT modes and apply them into my Four Pillars training? What other advantages would it give me or is it better to avoid another training system?

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It can never hurt to posses as much knowledge as you can get your hands on.. However. I would stick to one method as a beginner, and slowly incorporate other "stuff" as needed. (IMO) Also, make sure you take a few skype lessons with Robert - there is no faster way to make sure you are doing his program correctly. You will save lots of time.

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Hi Joel... for starters... lets determine where you are at with "The Four Pillars of Singing"... have you trained the Foundation Building Routine? Have you read the book and watched all the lectures and are you... training the Foundation Building Routine...

Having worked with the CVI product, I can personally tell you it can add some value, but all its going to really add for you is more insights on vowels, different and more vowels to juggle... maybe some sound color stuff... but these things are already in "The Four Pillars of Singing" and in any case.. .if you are a beginner... until you build the physical coordination and strength to bridge the passaggio, modify the first vowel set I give to you in the FBR, learn how to tune an onset, learn the different onsets available to you, ... the CVI stuff is not going to do much for you...

So I have to ask, why are you interested in the CVI content? What is it that you think its going to give you that is not already in "Pillars" and that you think your ready for?.. if your beginner and you have not mastered that foundation building routine... the CVI stuff is not going to do much for you, but confuse you and toss more jargon and complexities in your face... making an already complex experience, more complex for the reason that its not even the same language and pedagogy?

Send me a file of you doing onsets and sirens and some bridging ... Id like to hear if you have the foundation built... as a client, you are welcome to email me personally as well.

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to keep ti short... I find there are synergies and you can get ideas from both programs and work them without creating confusion... but ONLY for more advanced students that can already phonate an onset, tune their formant and bridge with a siren. If you can't do that... your just piling on more stuff your not ready for.

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Stick with one program first. Don't hold yourself back by thinking 2 programs are better than one. Better to get aquainted with the terms and process that Robert and the Pillars program is offering than to try and understand 2 different methods.

Robert is there to guide you if you have questions.

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Stick with one program first. Don't hold yourself back by thinking 2 programs are better than one. Better to get aquainted with the terms and process that Robert and the Pillars program is offering than to try and understand 2 different methods.

Robert is there to guide you if you have questions.

Paralysis by analysis. Or, jumping on a horse and trying to gallop in 4 different directions at once. I read so much stuff, I had no choice but to simplify. Plus, I only have 3 brain cells and they don't all fire at once. When they do, it startles me.

(insert redneck smiley here)

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You can't go wrong by buying the CVT book.... is not a "program". It is a reference book. Very detailed and complete. Sure they have some audio examples which are great. But it's not a work-out program. Four Pillars will give you a true vocal work-out. If you've already invested in it, get as much as you can out of it.

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Hi Joel... for starters... lets determine where you are at with "The Four Pillars of Singing"... have you trained the Foundation Building Routine? Have you read the book and watched all the lectures and are you... training the Foundation Building Routine...

Having worked with the CVI product, I can personally tell you it can add some value, but all its going to really add for you is more insights on vowels, different and more vowels to juggle... maybe some sound color stuff... but these things are already in "The Four Pillars of Singing" and in any case.. .if you are a beginner... until you build the physical coordination and strength to bridge the passaggio, modify the first vowel set I give to you in the FBR, learn how to tune an onset, learn the different onsets available to you, ... the CVI stuff is not going to do much for you...

So I have to ask, why are you interested in the CVI content? What is it that you think its going to give you that is not already in "Pillars" and that you think your ready for?.. if your beginner and you have not mastered that foundation building routine... the CVI stuff is not going to do much for you, but confuse you and toss more jargon and complexities in your face... making an already complex experience, more complex for the reason that its not even the same language and pedagogy?

Send me a file of you doing onsets and sirens and some bridging ... Id like to hear if you have the foundation built... as a client, you are welcome to email me personally as well.

Well, I've been training with it, I can see improvement, but there's still more to work to be done, like I haven't completely figured out how to bridge the passagio smoothly yet. I understand the lectures on doing it, but I can't seem to apply it very well (probably the lack of coordination and strength at the moment, I've had one successful moment just today, though!). I'm hoping to get a lesson in within a month as time frees up for me and hopefully I can check then to make sure I'm doing the onsets correctly.

Quick question while we're on this subject, would applying an onset in M1 such as contract an release help build the musculature to bridge the passagio? Or is is that just for M2? Not really a full C&A since I can't really use falsetto in M1 but a similar workflow on engaging intrinsic anchoring inside a closed embochure if you get where I'm coming at.

As for the CVI content, it's mostly the modes and a few other things such as the palate and nasal passages for example. Not to mention that I find reading about vocal techniques to be an interesting read. Hold on, so are the CVT modes in TVS just under a different name?

For everyone:

So would incorporating the minor stuff from CVT be alright while I focus on Four Pillars as a whole as a beginner, then incorporating bigger stuff as I get more advanced in the Four Pillars content and the application? I know they're very similar and I'm not saying one is better than the other here, but they probably have a few useful differences I can use. I think that's what I'm getting out of the responses, which have been great!

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I suggest listening to Robert. If you are having trouble bridging, try doing descending sirens, instead of ascending. For some reason, it is easier sometimes to start high, and slide down. Bridging doesn't require as much muscle strength as you would think. Try them starting high and sliding low and let me know how that works for ya.

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I know they're very similar and I'm not saying one is better than the other here, but they probably have a few useful differences I can use.

Although they share similar stuff and the same goal there's one very important fundamental difference which Robert also pointed out. And that's the pedagogy being used. :)

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Well, I've been training with it, I can see improvement, but there's still more to work to be done, like I haven't completely figured out how to bridge the passagio smoothly yet. I understand the lectures on doing it, but I can't seem to apply it very well (probably the lack of coordination and strength at the moment, I've had one successful moment just today, though!). I'm hoping to get a lesson in within a month as time frees up for me and hopefully I can check then to make sure I'm doing the onsets correctly.

Quick question while we're on this subject, would applying an onset in M1 such as contract an release help build the musculature to bridge the passagio? Or is is that just for M2? Not really a full C&A since I can't really use falsetto in M1 but a similar workflow on engaging intrinsic anchoring inside a closed embochure if you get where I'm coming at.

As for the CVI content, it's mostly the modes and a few other things such as the palate and nasal passages for example. Not to mention that I find reading about vocal techniques to be an interesting read. Hold on, so are the CVT modes in TVS just under a different name?

For everyone:

So would incorporating the minor stuff from CVT be alright while I focus on Four Pillars as a whole as a beginner, then incorporating bigger stuff as I get more advanced in the Four Pillars content and the application? I know they're very similar and I'm not saying one is better than the other here, but they probably have a few useful differences I can use. I think that's what I'm getting out of the responses, which have been great!

Joel, before we get too far into this discussion about combining two different pedagogies and all that entails... how long have you had "Pillars"? Bro, you have to realize that bridging the passaggio and connecting in the head voice, in a seamless fashion, is not something that happens in four weeks for most people. You need to be patient! You are building an entirely new, exotic attractor state for your body... singing and bridging the passaggio and all this entails is NOT intuitive for about 90% of the population out there and even those that can kinda do it with no lessons, still struggle and push if they don't have techniques trained and are not practicing.

If you are training the TVS Foundation Building Routine and not making mistakes... for most people, you should begin to feel bridging happening in about 3-8 weeks... if your also taking a few private lessons with me to insure your not making mistakes on the FBR, it can be as soon as 2-3 weeks. I like the CVI content, in my view, the main value there is the vocal modes which are pretty close to the the "acoustic modes" I am adding to the book this week as a matter of fact (Ill give you the update, no problem). These "acoustic modes" are.. and Im over simplifying here but... essentially groups of vowels that share similar physiological and acoustic properties, put into neat categories with names. Add to that, some information on sound color... how to make a phonation more or less "metallic" with twang and embouchure positions. The sound color information is already in your copy of Pillars... So its great stuff, so good, Im using it as research for the new updates on "Pillars"... but what CVI won't give you is a Training Routine like the FBR, training work flows that show you how to practice in great detail and no vocalize... no content to train on top of. So even the most hard core CVI student will benefit from "Pillars" because pillars offers a huge amount of training content to actually practice this stuff! So yes, you can say to yourself, "... Im now going to do the TVS octave sirens and Im going to train an overdrive "Eh" vocal mode with it"... thats basically what you can do with the two products... you can take their ideas and apply them to the TVS training content... but, the ideas are not so different... as I said, but the end of this week, "Pillars" will have the complete acoustic mode blow out in it... pretty much the same as CVI's book. So thats how they compliment each other...

Martin is also correct, the pedagogies are different as well, which I think more or less refers to the terminology, talk-track, etc... its kind of '6 and half a dozen" or neither "here nor there"... its two shades of grey... the big difference is the training content, workouts... where "Pillars" is very strong... and working out... specifically that Foundation Building Routine and achieving the objectives of the FBR is what you need right now... not poking around in different pedagogies looking for something that is already there or that you are not prepared for. I would say, when you have achieved a respectable FBR... you can calibrate and tune an onset, you can tune your formant to F1/H2 and you can then bridge the registers with some vowel modifications from "eh < > uh" or "eh < > Ae (fat cat)" ... it might be a good time to pile on more vowels with the CVI modes... but by then... they will already be in Pillars anyways... and Ill toss you the updated ebook...just check back in about 10 days.

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Joel, you should see Daniel's post with the vid of the weightlifter. Whatever program you choose, and you already have 4 Pillars, stick with it for a year, regardless of marketing, Robert's or any one else's, regardless of forum posts, whether mine or any one else's. The "magic pill"? Working at whatever you are doing. Singing is not an "app" you can download.

I talk about having the "folds of destiny" because it is funnier and reminds of Jack Black, rather than talking about singing, good and bad, since 1974, and I am still learning.

I don't care how smart you are, this will take time. Pick the path, work the path.

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I have pillars and took a lot of skype lessons with Rob. I also have the CVT book.

Guess which I got more out of...

TVS. Because it's a better method? Not necessarily. It's because of the higher priced investment in all those skype lessons. The CVT book...it's just a book. I can't follow it without a teacher's help. Same would be the case if I just bought pillars and tried to learn it on my own.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no book or program that comes close to the benefit you get from long term study with a private teacher. Which is why these books, despite containing so much information, are not worth thousands of dollars, like a year of private lessons is. Because they are merely information thrown at your face. You're left to your own devices to try to interpret it and figure out how to use it, and often, the self-study student misinterprets a lot of it and just gets confused, and they go on to take a really long and winding learning curve. Totally fine if you like confusion and want to learn slowly. But you really do get what you pay for...one program is equivalent to two lessons not only in price but in quality.

This is just my personal experience. Everybody learns differently. Some are able to work fine with programs. But private lessons are probably, only the whole, a more reliable way to become a master at anything...

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Hey Owen, its good to hear from you!

I agree with Owen's sentiments, you just can't deny the point that private lessons are going to radically push you forward. However, in defense of my training system... from the beginning, going back 6 years ago, I always wanted to produce a product that if someone did not have the resources for private lessons (its expensive Owen), that with "Pillars", they would have everything i could possibly offer, create, innovate and produce to give the best chance for success and results as a home study course. For this very reason... I believe my product is the only contemporary product that:

1). Offers over 40 videos of the author/producer demonstrating the vocal workouts so you can see and hear what it looks and sounds like.. .and hopefully get a little inspired as well.

2). Offers Two different sets of "guide" files. Guide files are audio files that you sing over the top of, to learn how the vocal workouts start and stop. To get solid on the cues. The guide files save you a lot of time and lower the risk of mistakes, at a minimum, you will know how the vocal workout is executed. One set is "train with robert" where you train over the top of me and the other is "train with guide" where you are provided a synth that plays the vocal part. Either way, you follow the guide files and this saves a lot of time and minimizes mistakes.

3). Notation of all the workouts. If you play piano, you can sit at the piano or give the workouts to your voice teacher and have them play them for you.

4). Training Work Flows. (Owen, you have to admit, the training work flows are really helpful). TVS is the only program that offers training work flows. Training work flows are essentially all the physical and acoustic technical components, (embouchure, compression, vowel, larynx dampening, respiration, pitch, open your eyes, etc...). that you need calibrated and tuned to produce a high performance voice. These technical components are then organized into sequential work flows (basically, step 1, step 2, step 3, step 4, etc...). This is the code! This shows students exactly what they are suppose to do, when to do it and how. It really makes training efficient and clarifies a lot of questions on what the hell your suppose to be doing.

5). A Foundation Building Routine. The FBR is the mandated first phase of TVS training that all students must become proficient at. I hold my students responsible for not dicking around.. for not poking around the book and bouncing around to what they think they need. You have to master this FBR... it is what will build the strength and coordination for your voice to be able to do anything else in the program, or anyone else's program for that matter. You have to transform your voice from a clunky, speech mechanism to a singing voice and most people must workout to do this. I know of no other program that nose dives their clients straight into what they need in the beginning to build the most fundamental muscle strength and coordination for singing.

I think Owen doesn't give "Pillars" enough credit as a home study program. I agree with his sentiments, but not everyone can take a year of private lessons... no other product that I am aware of will provide you with all this additional support and chance for success.

Here is a video that is a little bit dated. It refers to the training work flows... but does not address the new specialized onsets we developed last year or the acoustic modes we are developing this year. But, none the less, it hits the mark on the training work flows and the x/y intercept graph we use in the book.

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Well, I'd definitely be interested in what the new content has to offer. :D I guess I'm jumping the gun a bit, you're all right. What 4 pillars has done for me so far is amazing, even though it was a small step and I barely scratched the surface of understanding the application of the book and its lectures. Just thinking about what those private lesson with Rob can do is quite exciting! CVT will have to wait then, if I'll need it at all.

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CVI is really good.. but like Owen said, its just a book. A book with good ideas in it, but just a book. There are some sound samples you get, but its not really any significant demonstration content and there is no training content. What TVS and "Pillars" has always been very strong at and continues to be the strongest at in the industry is, providing training content. When it comes to actually picking up the mic and practicing, nothing can beat "Pillars"... ok, its my own product, you can imagine that its hard for me to be objective, but I can be... I know my strengths and weaknesses and the strengths and weaknesses of other programs.... and that is a fair statement. I have all the other products, not one has developed training content and value for people that want to train and practice, more then "The Four Pillars of Singing". I certainly don't see any problem with tooting my own horn if I believe it to be an actual fact.

Joel, master that FBR and try to take at least 3 lessons from me and you'll be fine...

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Joel, you should see Daniel's post with the vid of the weightlifter. Whatever program you choose, and you already have 4 Pillars, stick with it for a year, regardless of marketing, Robert's or any one else's, regardless of forum posts, whether mine or any one else's. The "magic pill"? Working at whatever you are doing. Singing is not an "app" you can download.

I talk about having the "folds of destiny" because it is funnier and reminds of Jack Black, rather than talking about singing, good and bad, since 1974, and I am still learning.

I don't care how smart you are, this will take time. Pick the path, work the path.

Just watched it, very inspiring. Thanks for pointing that out!

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CVI is really good.. but like Owen said, its just a book. A book with good ideas in it, but just a book. There are some sound samples you get, but its not really any significant demonstration content and there is no training content. What TVS and "Pillars" has always been very strong at and continues to be the strongest at in the industry is, providing training content. When it comes to actually picking up the mic and practicing, nothing can beat "Pillars"... ok, its my own product, you can imagine that its hard for me to be objective, but I can be... I know my strengths and weaknesses and the strengths and weaknesses of other programs.... and that is a fair statement. I have all the other products, not one has developed training content and value for people that want to train and practice, more then "The Four Pillars of Singing". I certainly don't see any problem with tooting my own horn if I believe it to be an actual fact.

Joel, master that FBR and try to take at least 3 lessons from me and you'll be fine...

Alright, I will. Thank you! That was actually the reason I got 4 Pillars out of all the other programs in the first place because I saw the greatness of the strengths in it.

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Rob is correct, I definitely have an anti home-study bias...just has to do with my personal learning style. And the fact that I am not tight on cash (yet...just wait 4 years till i'm out of college :mad:)

Certainly, a program is better than blind self-study.

Another point to bring up that relates to Dan's thread if you've seen it - it's better to get one program and a few private lessons, than become a "program hopper"...buying multiple home study programs and not giving any of them your full attention. From what I see on this forum that tends to lead to confused, struggling students.

The best singers I've heard on this forum tend to follow one or two methods, train them very seriously, and have, somewhere along the line, taken a few private lessons, just to check in. And most importantly, they're out there, singing, gigging, recording, learning from experience as well.

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Regardless of your admitted bias against self-study, Owen, you raise a good point. I think it's just a matter of timing and logistics. You will learn faster from direct interaction with the author than through a book. Such as you and Robert. Such as Bob and Anthony Frisell. Bob is still using Frisell things today, though he only had a handful of direct lessons with him. And, to me, it's not how many lessons you have had. it is how well you absorb the lessons given and use them. Even with a direct teacher contact, whether in person or on skype, the student still teaches himself. And the work is still upon the student to do. I feel, if you have to have a teacher there counting your scales, you are not getting the whole picture of the scale work. The teacher teaches you how to do a scale. But it is upon you to do the practice, at home, when you don't have the teacher standing right there, encouraging you. So, it still takes a work ethic, whether teacher driven, or material driven.

And I totally agree with you, Owen, on your last post (#19), the good singers, the working singers, have settled on whatever plan works for them and are doing their thing, rather than reading a bunch of systems and second-guessing themselves into a gordian knot.

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