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MDEW
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I didn't want to derail the other thread any more.

I do not know if Feuchtinger himself even says that the Hyo-glossus is responable for the "GROOVE" or "FURROW" as others call it. Just that the relaxation of the muscles of the tongue is important and that the groove is important. This groove (which ever actual muscle is responsible, provides the anchor for the Hyo-glossus to tense against. The tongue being anchored alows the back of the hyoid to raise. In turn HELPING to raise the back of the Thyroid cartilage.

Other muscles are not shown here(reference to picture provided in the other thread). The palatopharygious and the palatoglossus. Which connect the soft palate to thyroid cartilage and tongue respectively and create the pillars of the fauces. That fleshy looking thing the uvula is hanging from.

In Lilli Lehmans Book she stresses that the Fauces should be Billowed in high notes. What action Creates this Billow effect? Tesion on the palatopharygious and the palatoglossus. Which in turn helps raise the back of the thyroid cartilage aolng with th hyo-glossus.

Why is it that the "i" vowel is easier to sing High notes on? Could it be that the Back of the tongue is high and there is more tension on the hyo-glossus and a natural tendency to raise the soft palate and "Billow" the fauces.

No It couldn't be that. That would be absurd. It is the overtones of the "i" vowel.

Why is it harder to sing the "Ah" vowel higher in your range? Is it because the tongue is lower in the mouth and less natural tension is on the Hyo-glossus leaving the cricoThyroid muscle to do all the work.

No it couldn't be that. That would be Absurd. It is the overtones that is incompatable with the resonance chamber.

Why is the "OO" easier to sing High notes on? Is it because there is a natural Furrow in the back of the tongue and the sides of the tongue are anchored on the top molars and lifting the Hyo-glossus muscle putting tension on the hyoid and the back of the Thyroid cartilage?

No it couldn't be that. That would be absurd. It is that the overtones are favorable and the breath is naturally directed on a resonant path.

How about NG exercises? High tongue position. Sides of tongue anchored to the roof of the mouth?

There SHOULD be research on the musculature.

I am not saying that no training on scales or no Vocal programs are addressing this. They are. The muscles themselves although being used and strengthened are not being pointed out. Given credit to.

I am not even saying that the hyo-glossus or muscles of the Fauces are more important than any other aspect of singing. Just acknowledged.

It is the balance and coordination that is important. Something that cannot be improved without actually singing and vocalising. If the muscles are weak the balance and coordination cannot happen.

Because of it's position in the chain of musculature dealing with the vocal apparatus the Hyo-glossus seems to be the important link.

Just something that got stuck in my mind and I cannot shake it off. Thank you for your patience.

Comments welome.

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mdew, balance is the goal of technique, cant be anything else, or it becomes just a search for sounds.

Now, I don't discard the idea and I have been experimenting with it, not because of the logic, but because the guy used it and is singing in a way that has many things that I consider positive. I cant sing nessun dorma at that level.

From what I've understood the theory is creating a tension on the palatoglossus (arching the back of the tongue and lifting it's back) and allowing more tension on the hyoglossus, stabilizing the hyoid bone and so on WHEN there is a downward force on it.

I dont really care on the theory, on my voice, it had this effect:

https://app.box.com/s/8sheus6azed58z4njz2u

There are 3 samples of two passages of a song. First relaxing the area, second attacking with focus on it, third on a balanced attack with my normal focus but including the sensations.

To me its similar to what I know as "open throat", "drink the sound", "inhale the sound", "ball between togue and soft palate". I like the training reference.

However the thing with balance is that if you focus too much on one thing, you loose it... I don't think that such unilateral approach is wise, but I think I understand your way of thinking... There are other areas that are equally, or even more weak.

I can send you an email with a few ideas later if you'd like man. Maybe it will help solve the puzzle.

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mdew, balance is the goal of technique, cant be anything else, or it becomes just a search for sounds.

Now, I don't discard the idea and I have been experimenting with it, not because of the logic, but because the guy used it and is singing in a way that has many things that I consider positive. I cant sing nessun dorma at that level.

From what I've understood the theory is creating a tension on the palatoglossus (arching the back of the tongue and lifting it's back) and allowing more tension on the hyoglossus, stabilizing the hyoid bone and so on WHEN there is a downward force on it.

I dont really care on the theory, on my voice, it had this effect:

https://app.box.com/s/8sheus6azed58z4njz2u

There are 3 samples of two passages of a song. First relaxing the area, second attacking with focus on it, third on a balanced attack with my normal focus but including the sensations.

To me its similar to what I know as "open throat", "drink the sound", "inhale the sound", "ball between togue and soft palate". I like the training reference.

However the thing with balance is that if you focus too much on one thing, you loose it... I don't think that such unilateral approach is wise, but I think I understand your way of thinking... There are other areas that are equally, or even more weak.

I can send you an email with a few ideas later if you'd like man. Maybe it will help solve the puzzle.

I agree that focusing on or putting more importance on any one area will cause imbalance. This is no more important than the use of twang or resonance strategies or support.....Just another element.

Only that it seems to be dismissed or ignored.

I would welcome any information that you are willing to give. Thank you for your offer.

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There definitely is. :)

When I was looking for information on this, the only thing I ran across was Feuchtinger.

Maybe his work was found to be invalid. I have not found evidence of that either.

When looking for answers I found information on acoustics and resonance, subglottal pressures and such.

I fully admit that I am a hillbilly and my lack of knowledge is great. I can be wrong.

I know it may seem that I am arguing with you specifically, I am not. I have been debating myself for a long time on this. This subject just brought it all back to me.

I respect you, your knowledge and your ability. If you could direct me to further research I would greatly appreciate it.

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MDEW,

What I meant was, that there are a lot of research about the anatomy and physiology of the various muscles in the throat. And in my opinion, that knowledge points towards something that is not in line with what Fechtinger states - from a basic point of view (actually you'll also mostly find references to Estill in regards to cricoid tilt) And I believe that's why it hasn't been researched further. :)

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I have not gone over the writings myself recently enough to know exactly what Feuchtinger was stressing. The only thing I really remember is his idea of a simultaneous attack of the toungue with the emission of sound on mid notes. And an attack of the soft palate during High notes. A gradual shift between.

While playing with this Idea I was able to sing my full range without any Flipping breaking or change in charater of my voice. Upon abandoning this idea I have not been able to replicate the effect. Maybe it was a happy accident at the time. But using other principles Support, Resonace tracking, Twang ....... That happy accident has not reoccured.

It is time for me to revisit Feuchtinger and see if the Accident happens again. It may have only been that I was not focusing on something else detrimental that let my voice to free up.

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MDEW,

I'm not here to bash various methods. If something works then keep doing it!

However, I have found that knowledge of voice physiology is a very very valuable tool when it comes to all sorts of statements in this field. For instance you say that Feuchtinger has an: Attack of the soft palate as an onset?? You see MDEW, such a statement doesn't make sense. At least not scientifically, and apparently he claims that his method is just that - scientifically.

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MDEW,

I'm not here to bash various methods. If something works then keep doing it!

However, I have found that knowledge of voice physiology is a very very valuable tool when it comes to all sorts of statements in this field. For instance you say that Feuchtinger has an: Attack of the soft palate as an onset?? You see MDEW, such a statement doesn't make sense. At least not scientifically, and apparently he claims that his method is just that - scientifically.

He calls it a palate attack. Basically it is just the tension that you feel in the palate when you whisper a high note. It is tension on the Palatopharengeous muscle. Any words that I would use to describe it will not do it justice. He does not put things in a strait forward manner. Giving stories as he goes along.

For him to use a term Like Palate attack is no different than Catherine Sadoline using a term like curbing or Hold. No different than Robert using what he terms Wind and release onset. If you are describing a concept that is different from the norm you have to make up the term that descibes what you are doing when one is not already available.

Curbing may now be a respected term in Vocal Pedagogy but 20 years ago it was not.

Now that I think about it the best way to describe what Feuchtinger was proposing on high notes IS curbing.

The sensation to follow is on the palate not on the larynx.

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I have to admit it is hard for me to follow all these terms about tongue muscles that I am not used to.

However it is interesting about the Groove. Last week I was have an issue with a vowel on G4 and was able to correct by using Tony O'Hora's advice of not opening the mouth so much, and I ended up putting a groove in my tongue and kept it low towards the back of my mouth. That worked like a charm. I was just experimenting - trial and error. Then I read this stuff about Feuchtinger and the groove, and also he says your mouth shouldn't be open more than the width of your thumb. His info is exactly how I fixed the problem I was having.

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Most of the Methods speak of relaxation of the tongue and a groove or furrow in the tongue. The difference in this one is that it gives importance and exercises for achieving it BEFORE work is started on the voice itself. And it gives a name to the muscle unfortunately whether it is the Genioglossus or the hyo-glossus or the Chondraglossus is under contention when it comes to Feuchtingers theory.

" Chondraglossus.

The chondraglossus is often considered to be part of the hyoglossus muscle. As with the

hyoglossus, the chondraglossus arises from the lesser cornu of the hyoid, coursing upward to

intermingle with the intrinsic muscles of the tongue. This location is medial to the point of

insertion of the hyoglossus. The chondraglossus is a depressor of the tongue."

Taken from:

THE INFLUENCE OF THE TONGUE ON VOCAL PRODUCTION

Maria Lindberg-Kransmo, B.S.S..

It seems that this writer agrees that the Hyo-glosses is also responsible for the groove.

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All, I offer a simplification: All of these muscles are involved in positioning the tongue, and in the suspension of the hyoid (and the larynx which hangs from it and some bones), height of the soft palate and stretch of the pillars of the fauces.

The result is the vowel, (product of the vocal tract configuration) and the stability of the vocal organs.

The positions needed for each singer to get the most resonant and consistent vowels will vary by individual, and by voice type, and by genre of music with its associated tone quality preferences.

I hope this is helpful.

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Is this Steve Perry performance example of Feuchtinger techniques? Through working on this song I've found that the only way I can sing some of these vowels in a lighter configuration is to keep the mouth more closed (Feuchtinger says to not open mouth more than width of thumb) - and a concave tongue. You can see Steve Perry doing this in this video. Go to 2:32 where you can clearly see his tongue position:

Like Tony O'Hora says, these Journey songs can be really difficult using a louder, heavier approach. I can attest to that. I'm sure Steve Perry didn't study the Feuchtinger techniques, but somehow he either was told to do this or stumbled on it through trial and error. (By the way this is a great example of how good Steve Perry was back then - able to deliver a rather flawless live performance with nearly perfect pitch.)

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Is this Steve Perry performance example of Feuchtinger techniques? Through working on this song I've found that the only way I can sing some of these vowels in a lighter configuration is to keep the mouth more closed (Feuchtinger says to not open mouth more than width of thumb) - and a concave tongue. You can see Steve Perry doing this in this video. Go to 2:32 where you can clearly see his tongue position:

LifewaveGlutathionePlusPatches

Like Tony O'Hora says, these Journey songs can be really difficult using a louder, heavier approach. I can attest to that. I'm sure Steve Perry didn't study the Feuchtinger techniques, but somehow he either was told to do this or stumbled on it through trial and error. (By the way this is a great example of how good Steve Perry was back then - able to deliver a rather flawless live performance with nearly perfect pitch.)

Video link is broken...

But is perfectly possible that Steve uses that tongue position. Keep in mind that, as I have said in the other threads, a lot of singing programs/teachers actually use that, they just don't give it a specific physiological name. There are quite some excercises or vowel shapes that can trigger that kind of tongue usage. Or in other words: You don't have to know the Feuchtinger stuff to use it. As written before: In Rob's covers of Child in Time and Rooster you can also clearly see him using the tongue position. And guess what: He basically started using it together with his new "horizontal embouchure", which has a smaller mouth opening than the vertical embouchure he used before.

A typical excercise to trigger that effect are classical sometimes so-called "cuperto" excercises. For those excercises you use the shape of the vowel OO (as in "tool") which has a very small mouth opening, lowered larynx and relaxed folds. Then you keep that vowel shape of the OO but say an AH (as in "father") vowel. Try to keep the OO shape as much as possible (with small mouth open and the same tongue position).

You should feel some kind of "tension in the lower back" around the root of the tongue that is directed downwards. This is sometimes called "drinking" or "swallowing" the voice, because muscles are involved that are also activated while swallowing.

I am pretty positive that Steve used a similar approach with low mass of the folds. Many classical singers (including Pavarotti who worked a lot with exactly those OO excercises) use that coordination, too, but with higher mass of the folds, which involves a lot of additional appoggio.

What this approach won't give if you use it as low mass, is a "boomy" or "shouted" sound in the head voice, this is only possible with more space "in the front". In some papers the two extremes are sometimes called the "megaphone position", which is open in the front (mouth, teeth) but closed in the back (narrow pharynx, high larynx) and gives a "shouty" sound, and the "inverse megaphone position", which is closed in the front (mouth), but open in the back (wide pharynx, lowered larynx).

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I dont think its possible to even sing decently without using that posture, your vowels will all start to sound like ŨH if the tongue is allowed to just rise and convex up. Lifting the soft palate affects this coordination. So if you sing, its probably there.

Thats why the idea of training has value in my opinion.

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I didn't start this thread to promote Feuchtinger as a cure all. Mainly because the idea of a certain weak muscle causing some problems seemed to be such a point of contention.

Both VideoHere and Jens mentioned exercises to strengthen head voice. The Hooty "oo" slides and the "i" slides. Both of these have the natural Furrow in the back of the tongue and have the tongue anchored to the roof of the mouth. Also there is a feeling of tension in the palate.

The question was asked "How do these exercise strengthen Head voice musculature?" Most of the responces were that there is no thing as headvoice muscluture or it is not worth thinking about musculature.

I cannot help thinking that there is some corrolation between a tension on the hyo-glossus and the tension of the muscles that connect from the thyroid cartilage and tongue to the palate has an influence on the ease and production of a higher pitch especially with thicker vocal fold involvement.

Yes it is without a doubt it is the cricothyroid muscle that tilts the larynx and stretches the vocal folds but an upward tension on the back of the thyroid cartilage can do nothing other than help this movement.

In my opinion this only has an effect on the initial quality of vocal fold vibration. The rest has to do with acoustical properties, resonant strategies, Formant clustering and such.

In other words. Training. Vowel,Pitch,intensity. Support. Swinging your cat around the room and matching the sound. Prosody of song. ............... :)

My use of the term tension was not to imply forced tension of any kind, just involvement.

I am not a teacher. Just speaking on something that got stuck in my mind. My logic has proven to be flawed before. Do not let me lead you down a wrong path.

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Is this Steve Perry performance example of Feuchtinger techniques? Through working on this song I've found that the only way I can sing some of these vowels in a lighter configuration is to keep the mouth more closed (Feuchtinger says to not open mouth more than width of thumb) - and a concave tongue. You can see Steve Perry doing this in this video. Go to 2:32 where you can clearly see his tongue position:

LifewaveGlutathionePlusPatches

Like Tony O'Hora says, these Journey songs can be really difficult using a louder, heavier approach. I can attest to that. I'm sure Steve Perry didn't study the Feuchtinger techniques, but somehow he either was told to do this or stumbled on it through trial and error. (By the way this is a great example of how good Steve Perry was back then - able to deliver a rather flawless live performance with nearly perfect pitch.)

Good point, even as it proves me wrong in another post, in another thread, where I said you could go ahead and belt a Journey song if that is how your voice works. I am reminded of the interview that Enigma posted in another thread. Where SP actually talks about how he sings. Now, who would want to read that when we experts really know what's going on? What could Steve possibly know?

Except that he sang the songs. And became the voice that others spend years trying to copy. And I think his insight is valuable.

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I have to admit it is hard for me to follow all these terms about tongue muscles that I am not used to.

However it is interesting about the Groove. Last week I was have an issue with a vowel on G4 and was able to correct by using Tony O'Hora's advice of not opening the mouth so much, and I ended up putting a groove in my tongue and kept it low towards the back of my mouth. That worked like a charm. I was just experimenting - trial and error. Then I read this stuff about Feuchtinger and the groove, and also he says your mouth shouldn't be open more than the width of your thumb. His info is exactly how I fixed the problem I was having.

and then you got Tamplin's method that says open your mouth wide.

Lots of conflicting info out there.

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and then you got Tamplin's method that says open your mouth wide.

Lots of conflicting info out there.

Well that's just it. For operatic bel canto vocal production, which is really based on being able to fill a concert hall, you are going volume and max resonance. I love Ken Tamplin and how he has helped me expand my range. And bel canto methods are similar to my previous classical training. Unfortunately, I couldn't sing a Journey song without belting it. I was either in Curbing or Overdrive, which drives you to only a few vowel choices.

But when I try to do a song like Faithfully or Open Arms, I just don't want to belt it. I need to do this in Neutral, which offers more vowel choices in the range of E4 to B4 which is the typical Journey tessatura. Steve Perry is not belting it out - he is mostly in Neutral. To sing some of these vowels at these pitches I found that the only way to do it was with a curved tongue, and smaller mouth opening, like what Tony O'Hora advocates. It is certainly different than any of my training in the past. It's like I found a piece of the puzzle which I was missing all these years.

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Well that's just it. For operatic bel canto vocal production, which is really based on being able to fill a concert hall, you are going volume and max resonance. I love Ken Tamplin and how he has helped me expand my range. And bel canto methods are similar to my previous classical training. Unfortunately, I couldn't sing a Journey song without belting it. I was either in Curbing or Overdrive, which drives you to only a few vowel choices.

But when I try to do a song like Faithfully or Open Arms, I just don't want to belt it. I need to do this in Neutral, which offers more vowel choices in the range of E4 to B4 which is the typical Journey tessatura. Steve Perry is not belting it out - he is mostly in Neutral. To sing some of these vowels at these pitches I found that the only way to do it was with a curved tongue, and smaller mouth opening, like what Tony O'Hora advocates. It is certainly different than any of my training in the past. It's like I found a piece of the puzzle which I was missing all these years.

My whole point in starting this thread. A piece of the puzzle that when mentioned in the past ended up being glossed over because the way to describe it was a muscle movement and Feuchtinger.

Feuchtinger may have put too much importance on this but it has its place and is used by other programs just not pointed out in this manner.

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