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omryd
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So apparently this guy is Israel's national singer. The guy is considered the 2nd best vocalist to ever come out of Israel.

After seeing this I can see why,

2:25 is where I lost it.

would like to see what you guys have to say about this?

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He's definitely got his stuff together. Really good vocalist for sure.

For some reason I'm actually not a fan of his tone here but I'm thinking maybe it has a lot to do with the song and the way it was recorded. I'd like to hear him on a different song/recording and see if that is the issue or if I just don't like his tone, out of personal preference.

Other than that he's certainly a killer vocalist though, overall.

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Omry, Shalom.

First of all it is nice to know that I am not the only Israeli on the forum.

I think Eyal Golan has an amazing vocal ability. The genre he sings which is considered middle eastern music has a lot of nuances and licks that make this style of singing very difficult. He is considered the number 1 in Israel as he is the best in the genre, and in the last 10 years plus or minus the middle eastern music is what is considered main stream here in Israel. Today, Golan is a judge of the Israeli created reality song competition "Rising Star" and is very successful.

Would love to chat with you Omry

Have a great one and welcome to the forum!

Gilad

P.S. - > This was recorded in the reality show last week. You can hear his live performance is superb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfeYuUygeTM

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Omry, Shalom.

First of all it is nice to know that I am not the only Israeli on the forum.

I think Eyal Golan has an amazing vocal ability. The genre he sings which is considered middle eastern music has a lot of nuances and licks that make this style of singing very difficult. He is considered the number 1 in Israel as he is the best in the genre, and in the last 10 years plus or minus the middle eastern music is what is considered main stream here in Israel. Today, Golan is a judge of the Israeli created reality song competition "Rising Star" and is very successful.

Would love to chat with you Omry

Have a great one and welcome to the forum!

Gilad

P.S. - > This was recorded in the reality show last week. You can hear his live performance is superb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfeYuUygeTM

He really is brilliant. I just don't like what he represents and what people make of him.

Would love chatting with you aswell, feel free to PM me with some contact info pal.

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You two ain't the only ones here!

Even though I've been living in the US for a long time, I spent most of my youth in holy land.

According to who is Golan the 2nd greatest Israeli vocalist? Who's number one?

Anyway, While he is great at what he does and has a killer technique, I can understand people not liking Golan's tone as it may sound thin, shrill and nasally, but one must also understand that those are the vocal characteristics of Israeli middle eastern music in the same way that death metal wouldn't be death metal if the singer didn't sound like cookie monster.

Also LOL at kickingtone for the "no head voice" comment. This is almost 100% all mixed head voice.

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great singer.

"best vocalist" is subjective depends on people's opinions. personally i prefer the term "favourite singer" rather than the term "best singer".

Bingo.

I dont like judging singers based on a technique competition mindset. At the end of the day who's really your favorite singer? Not who you feel you should say on a vocal forum but what singers do you just love listening to? Some of my favorite singers dont have great technique or agility or do anything showy but they have the most infectious tone, texture, nuance...that's the stuff that makes a voice beautiful to me. Not how well they could execute an e2-a6 siren lol

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No. He is singing with resonance from the belly, chest and head, simultaneously. So he has head tones, of course. But "head voice" is something different.

Belly resonance? That's a new one... I bet it doesn't sound great.

This "mixed head voice" expression that you use is just a figment of your preferred "methodology", which does not apply across the world.

It sure does. Look up "mixed voice". It's when you combine chest+head resonance.

This singer is seamless, and I don't hear him "going into head voice" or operating any of your techniques.I don't hear him change timbre to achieve pitch

Of course you don't hear it because:

1 - He's a true pro

2 - No offense, but your "vocal ear" probably isn't fine-tuned enough to actually hear it.

In his case the head is more dominant. and Yes, for the super highs he goes into head voice and there's little chest resonance. His head voice is as strong (if not stronger) then chest, so an untrained ear can't and won't hear an audible difference.

What I disagree with is calling it a "mix" of things coming from your preferred methodology. It is highly unlikely that that is how he learned to sing a genre whose inception is probably ancient.

Genre has nothing to do with technique. If you have a great technique and an understanding of how the voice works from a mechanical standpoint then you can apply your technique to just about anything you desire and want to sing.

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Another taste of Israeli middle eastern music for you guys.

Truly love this guy.

You two ain't the only ones here!

Even though I've been living in the US for a long time, I spent most of my youth in holy land.

According to who is Golan the 2nd greatest Israeli vocalist? Who's number one?

Anyway, While he is great at what he does and has a killer technique, I can understand people not liking Golan's tone as it may sound thin, shrill and nasally, but one must also understand that those are the vocal characteristics of Israeli middle eastern music in the same way that death metal wouldn't be death metal if the singer didn't sound like cookie monster.

Also LOL at kickingtone for the "no head voice" comment. This is almost 100% all mixed head voice.

Many would argue that Zohar Argov is the true king of middle eastern music in israel. I do believe that he has shaped it to what it is today but I wouldn't say he is better vocally.

I'm curious. What does he represent? Or do you have a link (in English)?

The guy puts out an album each year. He's put out more than 20. In recent years he has gone really mainstream, hosting a reality show and such, involving the press in all his personal life issues, etc. He loves the press.

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Golan's type of singing is considered main stream in Israel, and he has a very clear voice. I think the #1 singer is Shlomo Arzi. Again, not something that foreiners would enjoy listening to in my opinion.

Zoar Argov has no voice what so ever, sorry... Its the lyrics that got people hooked to him.

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When every note bounces off the diaphragm, you get the belly resonance. I can hear the difference, even if you can't.

You don't understand the subtleties. Let me explain.

A juggler is taught to juggle with his right hand, and then with his left hand. He is then taught to juggle with both hands as a "mixed coordination".

A second juggler learns how to juggle with both hands from scratch.

The Juggler 1 thinks Juggler 2 is doing a "mixed coordination" because that is all Juggler 1 knows. In fact the Juggler 2 is NOT mixing anything.

In singing, head resonance comes out of all approaches. But "head voice" comes only from the Juggler 1 mentality.

Good gosh man! For one time, can you just quit while you are behind?

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Just to stay within the Juggler picture. The point you are leaving out is that 99% of the people allready CAN juggle with one hand, because they do it in everyday life (speaking in chest voice). Also MANY people have acces to also juggle with the other hand (falsetto) by nature.

Thus, for 99% of the peple out their is either the "mixing" of two things they can already do (chest + falsetto = mix) or mixing one thing they already can do with one new thing they have to learn or "add" to their abilities.

And that is just for beginners. The majority of people on the forum here know either the acoustic or physiological definitions of head voice and the guy in the video is using both. So we are just using a term we all undestand to describe what that guy is doing.

And belly resonance??? Sometimes I get a feel that people tend to call anything where they can sense contraction of muscles resonance. I think that is the case here. We usually use the term "support" to describe that.

In the end we are saying the same anyways: He is singing in a well-supported head voice mostly.

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Resonance is the worst way todescribe a sound.

You can have, head,chest, bellyresonance mixed resonance in both falsetto or head, speakingvoice.

and it's only due to in what pitchrange you are. In the lowrange uoull feel the most vibrations, it even vibrates more in the head than highnotes.

and on highnotes youll feel the notes travel upwards regardless of voicequality or vibratory register.

So basicly head/chest resonance only implies in wich part of the voice your vocalising.

Resonance however can be used as technique if your guided by an experienced coach who is used to work with such concepts.

But used to discuss a certain quality or color it's basicly useless to talk resonance

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Benny, I think many people already do both. It may be something to do with language and accent.

I can understand how you can speak English or Spanish in chest voice, alone. But French? Some of their inflections are quite heady. One of the most difficult words for English speakers is the French "un".

Then you have all the tonal languages in the Far East and Africa. You can't speak Yoruba without a mixed voice.

And in Arabic, some expressions have this unique airy nasality (a sort of nasal cry).

I think the singing pedagogy has evolved for particular languages and accents.

Just because some vowels in speech include mixed coordinations doesn't mean that there is any form of universal control of the mechanism. Otherwise french speakers should have a much easier time to learn to sing for example.

I agree though that the terms chest/mixed/head are quite outdated. I rather like to talk using M1 vs. M2 and the tuning/mode of the vocal tract now. But a lot of singers/teachers still use the old terms and most know what is being said.

The trouble is that this particular terminology describes not only what the guy is doing, but how he is doing it. That is where I am open-minded. I think there are many ways people achieve an effect.

Yes, there are many ways. But in the end as students of singing we WANT to know HOW it is done. And in that special case it is described by the term head voice that is known to most of us. While there are several ways to create a certain sound it is simply very improbable to produce those pitches with a coordination that could be considered chest voice (dominance of the body vibration of the folds).

I can feel very strong resonance in my abdomen, through my diaphragm, especially for low notes where it is stronger than chest vibrations. It certainly isn't muscle "contraction", I mean, come on! :)

You've got this large elastic sheet muscle under your rib cage that is involved in phonation. As a sheet, the diaphragm can resonated. This is where I just say, well, I know what I feel, regardless of the pedagogy. There's not that much point about arguing about it. You can only discuss with people who feel the same.

These are sympathetic vibrations, not resonance. As Jens already pointed out, sympathetic vibrations are not really a good way to describe what people are doing in singing, because they are too individual. Resonance is about the acoustic effect or tuning of your vocal tract. It can be measured by spectral analysis and heard by the well-trained ear. This mainly holds true for the tuning/resonance though, and not so much for the vibration pattern (m1 vs. m2).

I know that terms like chest/head resonance are originally based on sympathetic vibrations, too. But they have been mostly replaced by more accurate scientific explanations in the past that are mostly used by state-of-the-art vocal programs. In didactics, however, sympathetic vibrations still CAN be useful on people that are sensitive to it.

So just to be clear what I understand by those terms:

"mixing": Is to me to be in control of your vocal fold mass, which means to control the TA/CT musculature to a degree where you can make either of them dominant and vary the mass at will. Speakers usually mainly have the coordination where TA is dominant and both muscles cancel each other out. They also often have the coordination where CT is dominant, but TA is completely off (falsetto). Mixed coordinations (especially cry-like or nasalized) do exist on certain vowels but are rarely dominant in any language and usually can't be transported to different vowels or a vast degree of pitches. Especially the coordination where CT is dominant, but TA is still active, which is considered to be "head voice" on a laryngeal level, is extremely rare and exotic compared to natural speech. In most cry-like or nasalized phonations, the larynx is tilted but the vibration of the outer layers is not dominant, which means it is not head voice.

"resonance": Is to me to be in control of the size and shape of your vocal tract to be able to resonate the sound that is created by the folds and enstrengthen certain harmonics. Resonating H2+ within resonator F1 is usually identified with chest resonance. Resonating H2+ within resonator F2 is usually identified with head resonance.

The first concept is used more in a contemporary context, the second in a classical context. There are also methods like TVS that live somewhere in between. In TVS technique you are trained to use head voice from a laryngeal pespective but mix it with an F1->H2 tuning, which would be considered chest resonance from a classical point of view.

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Resonance is caused by sympathetic vibrations. That's basic physics. Depending on relative phase, a sympathetic vibration can have a neutral, dampening or resonating effect.

As you say, it is (almost always) the vocal folds that produce the sound waves.

Everything else is sympathetic vibration, head, chest, diaphragm, belly etc. But they are what produce resonance. You wouldn't make an acoustic guitar out of cement, would you? It gets its resonance from sympathetic vibration.

No, the resonating or dampening effects of sympathetic vibrations are absolutely marginal in singing. The effects of the vocal tract resonators (especially F1 and F2) are MAJOR compared to that and increase volume by up to 20 dB.

Now, (and I am open-minded on this point) what is important from the singer's perspective?

Personally, I cannot directly sense whether I am using the body mass of my vocal folds or some other part. But I can directly sense if my chest, head or diaphragm are tense. That will affect (kill) the resonance. It is something I can hear and easily relate to.

No one can really do that. That's why numerous schools of teaching come with different ways to get a sense for it. Based on sound, volume, sympathetic vibrations, imaginations, whatever. But when you want to talk in general and communicate you want to use terminology that grasps what is actually going on there and not what the singer is thinking or sensing.

From my experience, most people can feel the switch between body-driven or cover-driven vibration in "some way", but it is not always the same way for all people. For some it's acoustics, for some it's a sense of "lightening", for some its a feeling of "turning the voice upside down".

I know there is sometimes this thing I call "singer's empathy" where you somehow sense what another singer is thinking, if he is focusing on his diaphragm or sympathetic vibrations in his head or whatever. But you can never be really sure, so it's not really a good tool for analysis.

In reality, vibrations can't be "placed" somewhere actively. I think that is in essence what you are trying to say. Those vibrations are the RESULT of something you do. And I also can confirm that actively trying to place the "resonance" somwhere or directing it into the head/nose can cause you to "disconnect" from your diaphragm. The origin of the note is always the folds and the resonance always happens in the pharynx and mouth.

You have indicated that the term head voice is more nominal than scientific. OK, I have maybe used the term in my own way (and I certainly wasn't considering vocal fold mass). But there is not even a consensus among experts.

Yes, those terms are often defined differently. But on the forum, I think there is quite some consensus on what "head voice" means.

If I were elected to define those terms I would actually say there is 4 registers (leaving out fry and whistle) which would be:

- chest: a coordination with full mass, regulating pitch by increasing tension, driven by body vibration (TA = CT)

- chestmix: a coordination with reduced mass, regulating pitch by increasing tension and reducing fold length, (CT > TA) driven by body vibration

- headmix: a coordination with reduced mass, regulating pitch by reducing fold length, driven by cover vibration (CT > TA)

- head: a coordination with minimum mass, regulating pitch by reducing fold length, driven by cover vibration (only CT active)

While the coordinations chest, head and chestmix are somewhat incorporated in speech, it is especially the headmix coordination that is VERY rarely used naturally, but it is especially that coordination that is SO important in quality singing.

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I've read your post carefully, and I do disagree on a few points.

Resonance is caused by sympathetic vibrations. That's basic physics. Depending on relative phase, a sympathetic vibration can have a neutral, dampening or resonating effect.

As you say, it is (almost always) the vocal folds that produce the sound waves.

Everything else is sympathetic vibration, head, chest, diaphragm, belly etc. But they are what produce resonance. You wouldn't make an acoustic guitar out of cement, would you? It gets its resonance from sympathetic vibration.

Now, (and I am open-minded on this point) what is important from the singer's perspective?

Personally, I cannot directly sense whether I am using the body mass of my vocal folds or some other part. But I can directly sense if my chest, head or diaphragm are tense. That will affect (kill) the resonance. It is something I can hear and easily relate to.

You have indicated that the term head voice is more nominal than scientific. OK, I have maybe used the term in my own way (and I certainly wasn't considering vocal fold mass). But there is not even a consensus among experts.

I was trying to use the term from the perspective of what the singer can directly sense and monitor. In my way of thinking, the singer is not necessaritly directing the vibration to his head, or chest, he is perhaps just relaxing and the vibrations reach his head and chest and diaphragm, where he can modulate them and the resonance they produce. That's how I look at it.

Some singers sound to me as if they really are directing vibration to their head. When that happens, it sounds to me as if the chest and diaphragm have been cut off. What I was trying to say is that I do not get that impression from Golan (even when he hits the Golan Heights. :D) His chest and diaphragm remain "live". To me, that allows for "head resonance" but does not mean "head voice".

In a way, it is multitasking, whereas "head voice" sounds sequential: switching between macro coordinations.

Finally, I do believe that French speakers probably have an advantage in some aspects of singing. That does not mean singing in general. The French accent is probably the most airy European accent, too. What effect does that have? This is very much at odds with American accents that dominate the mainstream.

I also have the opinion that when most speak of resonance they are only seeing part of the equation.

The material connecting the vibrations from source to the resonance space has influence. Also the structure of the material creating that space (too stiff little vibration, to soft little vibration).

It seems that Resonance has been equated with echo; sound bouncing off walls or chambers and reflecting sound. Resonance is the walls of the chamber itself vibrating with the source and amplifying the vibration. Not just the air movement.

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I also have the opinion that when most speak of resonance they are only seeing part of the equation.

The material connecting the vibrations from source to the resonance space has influence. Also the structure of the material creating that space (too stiff little vibration, to soft little vibration).

It seems that Resonance has been equated with echo; sound bouncing off walls or chambers and reflecting sound. Resonance is the walls of the chamber itself vibrating with the source and amplifying the vibration. Not just the air movement.

The important "material" connecting the source of vibrations to the resonant space is air. The vocal instrument is not built like a guitar, it is a lot more like a wind instrument. The body of the guitar vibrates and actually emits sound. Most guitars resonate the lower strings better because of the way they are built. Lower strings sound richer and fuller. Just compare it to an ukulele, which resonates higher notes better.

Of course the material plays a role, but you can't change the material of your vocal tract, can you? You can change it's stiffness a little bit, but really only to marginal extent. The BY FAR most important factor is size and shape.

You can just try it out with a dynamic microphone. Try to record your guitar and place the mic close to the strings. Then record it placing it at the back of the guitar. The sound will be dampened but there will still be quite some sound because the body vibrates and actually emits sound, especially on the lower strings.

Then try the same with your body. Try recording yourself and put your mic against your diaphragm or wherever you feel "resonance". What do you get out of it? Or hold it against your forehead on a very high note.

Another nice tests are notes with a strong "nasal resonace" like EE. If you can sing that note without active nasality you will still have a big "buzz" within your nose. But if you sing the note correctly you can pinch or stuff your nose, basically completely closing the "resonance chamber" without a change in sound quality. Then try stuffing your mouth or the body of an acoustic guitar...

The main factor to resonance is reflection IN SPACE not transduction through tissue. Anything that is not connected BY AIR to the vocal folds will not resonate the sound in a way that has a measurable effect.

The "instrument picture" for the voice is much closer to a flute that can change in length and shape.

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Does a wooden flute have the same tone as a metal flute? :/

No, but that's not the point as you can't change the material of your vocal tract with technique. It is still the same type of resonance, which is comparable to the resonance in the vocal tube.

Tissue, bones, whatever is set into vibration by the sound waves doesn't contribute to "what comes out". It is mainly about reflection within the vocal tube, and reflection is about shape and size.

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I understand what you are saying Benny. I am only saying that Part of the strained sound when there is too much tension in the throat/jaw/tongue is because they are too tight to vibrate fully. Same thing can occur if the muscles of the throat and mouth are too loose. You do not get a strained sound but you can get a muffled sound.

It may only play a small part but it plays a part none the less.

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