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Lets discuss KTVA,Open throat, CVT, & Twang for the sake of foundation

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OppaB
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Thank you ahead of time for reading this text wall, and taking your time to answer

Okay I need your help, modern vocalist family. I would like a simple discussion on the topic of open throat and twang. I wasn't satisfied with the answers I was given.

CVT way of explaining open throat works for me: it is simply making sure your constrictors don't come into play(basically a RELAXED THROAT). Even though I made no big gains with SS, I never felt major constrictors coming into play, it did remove all that beginner strain and stress.

KTVA way of explaining open throat is more to me of something you have to do, when ken explain it in his dvd, he demonstrates it more as a thing where you manually hold the throat open or at least that is how I took it from him, and FOR ME it seems to cause more issues than benefits. We do read about that on here and other places how people who learned open throat would force their throat too open and it messed things up. I go by how it feels now.

1. I purchased the CVT book, learned the 3 important principles but I am having a hard time on twang, because I don't know how to do it right. I went to KTVA forum and asked for help clarifying how would they do twang, and I told twang in itself is not necessary and not useful because it has something to do with affecting AIR PRESSURE on the vocal cords and they are concerned with longevity of the voice. With that being said, is that true? Because I do not want to waste time learning twang if it negatively affects the vocal cords in the long run. If twang has helped you and is a very great, and you believe it will contribute to longevity then post some information or explain to me the simplest way to add twang to my voice. I honestly feel like I wasted my 97 dollars if twang is not important in the long run, but then I saw a singer named Martin H performing on you tube and he could really sing great.

Although I hate the nay, nay nay exercise with a passion, I do know that when Jesse Nemitz showed me how to do it and told me the goal of it is to clean the slack off the cords and helped me feel that nasal witches cackel but he never told me it was twang, Now I know it was twang. His formula for easing singing seems to be Neutral or Low larynx + Twang, during my lesson it really was louder effortlessly even though I was not supporting at all. I was relying on Twang, low larynx & compression of the cords, actually feeling that edgy feeling.

2. I want to ask you vocal experts about Ken's technique of glottal compression. First off, I'll state my own review of it. I found that it can really mess my voice if I do it wrong, and if done right it sounds alright but I feel no twang when doing it, the volume is louder but the effort & pain or risk of pain is too much for me to handle. I read somewhere on this forum that all twang has some amounts of glottal compression, but glottal compression doesn't have twang. He teaches it as holding back the breath, I feel the holding back of breath that I should do is using support to hold back the air. I feel that glottal compression doesn't work for me and I'm not going to force myself to do it if it doesn't want to work for me, and if it does work for me, is it really worth it. So if TWANG is not important and that narrowing of the funnel leads to a short vocal career, then I shouldn't focus on it, but if it is important then I don't think learning kens method of glottal compression will benefit me because I'm not twanging with it.

3. I honestly believe in the idea of allowing your larynx to shift naturally high for high notes & low for notes instead of forcing it into a certain position based on my experience, and not because a coach said it or because I read it in a book. (I know when I sing with a low larynx I always have a darker tone and it feels harder to make it bright or add some sort of ping to it.) Why then do some methods basically Teach Low Larynx + twang or Low Larynx + Pharyngeal rather than Natural shifting larynx + twang? Is it because of stylistic choice or is it because it will lead to longevity in the voice.

4. Without mentioning TA & CT, is twang something that we can only activate in what we call Head voice( I don't know CVT terms yet), or can we twang in our chest voice? I found that when I try to twang in my chest voice, it doesn't work right, and it feels too toughed up which can lead to constriction. I'm beginning to think, its something that happens in head voice only, how does that work lol, I see people talking about top down phonation. I don't know much about it, but I do know. When I sing in my head voice, or bring my head voice down in my chest and cry on the notes. (Or sing chest notes with my head voice) Singing is much much more easier. I also agree that we should train bridging late and bridging early. Back in my SS/MM days they used to call that release, basically using your head voice to sing everything because it felt easy and then twanging for that magical MIX voice, but thanks to Rob Lunte I know what it really means now.

5. I'm learning how to support, but I often end up with a scratchy airy breathy voice even though the tone is in place and its not wobbly, how do I fix that? Why is that? In my mind, I'm thinking its because I have no twang in my voice, regardless if I lift my soft palate or not for singing, and I feel that I'm lacking cord closure or the minimal compression of cords.

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Hmmm. Intermediate but I always treat myself as a beginner in order to learn faster. I don't think its important though, as long as you respond in a manner simple for most to understand or at least on the level of my typing.

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@VIDEOHERE If need be, I can demonstrate my vocal level in a song for you. Just say the word and ill record a song on my soundcloud so you can hear it. Its best that way instead of me saying, Master at singing and can't even sing a splick. :lol:

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that would be great.

the reason i ask is on just a written medium it's hard to convey things sometimes. if we can hear you, we can get a better idea.....the best of all is to actually see you.

my latest achievement i made as a vocalist was not mechanical, it was mental. it was going backwards almost to the very beginning and handing it off to my mind first.

so what i'm suggesting is perhaps for you to begin with a clean slate....mentally.

compose a really clear picture a mental image of how the voice actually works in it's purest form. would you say you have a real picture of that?

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Okay I'll get started on the song, & also my clear picture is not yet clear and blank. I would like to think it is simple, similar to how CVT maps it out in three basic principles for the voice, or at least I like to think of the voice as having simple rules and just obeying them and then every thing else is artistic choice rather than doing something because a method has an ideal sound or sound ideal because I don't want to sound the same all the time, I wanna spice it up with some screaming, rasp, rapping etc. Also could you try and answer the first 4 questions lol.

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OppaB,

Firstly thank you for the kind words in regards to my singing.

1. Twang is a narrowing just above the vocal folds. The more powerful sound the more it narrows.

2. Glottal compression is the adduction of the vocal folds. Twang often leads to more adduction but it doesn't have to (remember, twang is done above the folds).

3. Basically the larynx goes up on high notes and down on low notes. However, there is a margin where you can play around with larynx height to change the sound color (low larynx - darker ; higher larynx - brighter).

4. Twang can be done anywhere in the range.

5. Support is dynamic and is basically about the right amount of subglottal pressure for a given sound. If that balance is not present you are not supporting.

:)

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Thank you ahead of time for reading this text wall, and taking your time to answer

Okay I need your help, modern vocalist family. I would like a simple discussion on the topic of open throat and twang. I wasn't satisfied with the answers I was given.

CVT way of explaining open throat works for me: it is simply making sure your constrictors don't come into play(basically a RELAXED THROAT). Even though I made no big gains with SS, I never felt major constrictors coming into play, it did remove all that beginner strain and stress.

KTVA way of explaining open throat is more to me of something you have to do, when ken explain it in his dvd, he demonstrates it more as a thing where you manually hold the throat open or at least that is how I took it from him, and FOR ME it seems to cause more issues than benefits. We do read about that on here and other places how people who learned open throat would force their throat too open and it messed things up. I go by how it feels now.

1. I purchased the CVT book, learned the 3 important principles but I am having a hard time on twang, because I don't know how to do it right. I went to KTVA forum and asked for help clarifying how would they do twang, and I told twang in itself is not necessary and not useful because it has something to do with affecting AIR PRESSURE on the vocal cords and they are concerned with longevity of the voice. With that being said, is that true? Because I do not want to waste time learning twang if it negatively affects the vocal cords in the long run. If twang has helped you and is a very great, and you believe it will contribute to longevity then post some information or explain to me the simplest way to add twang to my voice. I honestly feel like I wasted my 97 dollars if twang is not important in the long run, but then I saw a singer named Martin H performing on you tube and he could really sing great.

Although I hate the nay, nay nay exercise with a passion, I do know that when Jesse Nemitz showed me how to do it and told me the goal of it is to clean the slack off the cords and helped me feel that nasal witches cackel but he never told me it was twang, Now I know it was twang. His formula for easing singing seems to be Neutral or Low larynx + Twang, during my lesson it really was louder effortlessly even though I was not supporting at all. I was relying on Twang, low larynx & compression of the cords, actually feeling that edgy feeling.

2. I want to ask you vocal experts about Ken's technique of glottal compression. First off, I'll state my own review of it. I found that it can really mess my voice if I do it wrong, and if done right it sounds alright but I feel no twang when doing it, the volume is louder but the effort & pain or risk of pain is too much for me to handle. I read somewhere on this forum that all twang has some amounts of glottal compression, but glottal compression doesn't have twang. He teaches it as holding back the breath, I feel the holding back of breath that I should do is using support to hold back the air. I feel that glottal compression doesn't work for me and I'm not going to force myself to do it if it doesn't want to work for me, and if it does work for me, is it really worth it. So if TWANG is not important and that narrowing of the funnel leads to a short vocal career, then I shouldn't focus on it, but if it is important then I don't think learning kens method of glottal compression will benefit me because I'm not twanging with it.

3. I honestly believe in the idea of allowing your larynx to shift naturally high for high notes & low for notes instead of forcing it into a certain position based on my experience, and not because a coach said it or because I read it in a book. (I know when I sing with a low larynx I always have a darker tone and it feels harder to make it bright or add some sort of ping to it.) Why then do some methods basically Teach Low Larynx + twang or Low Larynx + Pharyngeal rather than Natural shifting larynx + twang? Is it because of stylistic choice or is it because it will lead to longevity in the voice.

4. Without mentioning TA & CT, is twang something that we can only activate in what we call Head voice( I don't know CVT terms yet), or can we twang in our chest voice? I found that when I try to twang in my chest voice, it doesn't work right, and it feels too toughed up which can lead to constriction. I'm beginning to think, its something that happens in head voice only, how does that work lol, I see people talking about top down phonation. I don't know much about it, but I do know. When I sing in my head voice, or bring my head voice down in my chest and cry on the notes. (Or sing chest notes with my head voice) Singing is much much more easier. I also agree that we should train bridging late and bridging early. Back in my SS/MM days they used to call that release, basically using your head voice to sing everything because it felt easy and then twanging for that magical MIX voice, but thanks to Rob Lunte I know what it really means now.

5. I'm learning how to support, but I often end up with a scratchy airy breathy voice even though the tone is in place and its not wobbly, how do I fix that? Why is that? In my mind, I'm thinking its because I have no twang in my voice, regardless if I lift my soft palate or not for singing, and I feel that I'm lacking cord closure or the minimal compression of cords.

1. Neither great or bad. Necessary. Either directly or indirectly this coordination will be present. Unballance by either too much or too little can be harmful.

2. Increasing laryngeal tension and longevity are two things that oppose each other. And longevity while doing what?

3. larynx height should never be directly manipulated except for interpretative purposes. It will move and as your technique improves it will remain more stable. Fixed posture is not correct, as its not correct to let it just go wild jumping up and down.

4. No. But note that now besides cvt and ktva you are now going into classical definitions and muscular ballance. Mixing everything together usually only causes confusion.

5. Emission adjustment depends on more than just support coordination, and "twang" would surely matter. If its airy, its not supported but it may not be a fault of breathing.

Overall, big deal of confusion that frankly is not necessary. To me its also clear that you identify with CVT. Find a teacher that uses it and can perform at the level you want for you, and train. Martin would be the obvious choice, since you also relate with his singing.

GL!

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Before I even finish reading your post...

TWANG IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Call it whatever terminology you want - bright timbre, mask, pharyngeal (they're all about the same thing really), but DO NOT neglect it.

Ok, I can continue reading now. :cool:

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I already basically answered #1 in my previous post.

Oh also, no twang is not damaging at all. It can be fatiguing at first, but once you nail down the coordination (which takes time...it took me about a year), it will start to feel pretty easy and natural and it's a big win because it gives you far more sound using relatively less effort.

2. I'm not sure exactly what KTVA's glottal compression is, but I'd be willing to bet, if not overdone, it is healthy. From your descriptions it seems like you might just be doing it wrong. People on here have discussed before that it's usually not the teacher at fault, but the student's interpretation of their instruction.

I'm not a "vocal expert" though. Just an intermediate singer.

3. It's stylistic choice.

4. You can twang in chest voice. If it's making you constrict, again, it's probably not anything wrong with the pedagogy, but how you are interpreting it. I'm guessing the case is that you are already naturally twanging in chest voice and then when you tell yourself to add twang, you overdo it. OR, you're confusing twang with weight.

It might be helpful to understand that twang is harder to accomplish in head voice than in chest voice.

5. Better adduction of the vocal folds. Usually a combination of glottal compression or the cord closure SS teaches, and twang.

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Thanks Everyone.

A fellow by the name of Danielformica, helped me with the right direction and now I understand everything thanks to him. I should have said so earlier, but I went out, but thank you for your contribution, all your replies confirm & compliment my understanding now. I know what works for me now and what simply just doesn't work for my voice, no confusion at all anymore.

@ Martin H Your welcome. When your singing high resonant powerful notes, are you using a little or a lot sub pressure in order to maintain that balance so you don't strain?

@FelipeCarvalho Thanks, I got it figured out now.

@Owen Korzec lol I had a feeling it was a big deal, I can personally feel it now, I just gotta work on removing mucous forming food out of my diet, I've had a phlegm issue these past few days, makes me wanna grab a pill and genocide all the fat middle class working men germs like you see on those mucinex commercials.

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@ Martin H Your welcome. When your singing high resonant powerful notes, are you using a little or a lot sub pressure in order to maintain that balance so you don't strain?

Thanks. It's great that Daniel seems to be able to work things out.

I'm using the right pressure. Remember, it's balance. :)

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i told dan he's like burgess merideth in rocky....super knowledgeable guy, as are a lot of you...but i might just be catching up to you soon.....lol!!!!!

i would just would like to add that exercising and developing the pharyngeal voice is one the best things you can do especially for power rock.

also become critically aware that the vowels are shaped by the throat, (they are throat shapes) not the mouth. in the lower part of the voice vowels need not be modified and their presence is "felt" by the singer. when you get past (generally d4 and up) although the vowels are still shaping, it feels like they have left you and/or they feel sonically closer to one another the higher up you go the closer they feel and you are then working with sound beams. the singer's job is to use the will and mind to direct the sound beams, not intentional manipulation of the vocal mechanism.

this was the biggest lesson i had to learn, or better yet had to allow myself to learn....

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Burgess, indeed. For Dan to complete that image, he needs to squint a little bit, make his voice sound rougher. Burgess was older and used a rougher tone in "Rocky" than he did as the Penguin in the Batman tv series.

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  • 9 months later...
  • Administrator

Make sure you review these documents before you make any decision on what program to purchase. There are several good programs, I agree. I want members of this forum to know everything they need to know about "The Four Pillars of Singing" first hand, get the facts... I recommend you start with the Reviews, Table of Contents and then go to the web site to read the specifications and view the video.

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsReviews

http://tinyurl.com/4PillarsTableofContents

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsOfSinging

http://tinyurl.com/TVSonYouTube

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsTrainingRoutines

http://tinyurl.com/TVSTrainingWorkFlows

http://tinyurl.com/TVSMethod

http://tinyurl.com/The4PillarsUpdate

Let me know if you have any questions... send me an email.

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