Muscular Neck

[Martin H]

Don't always be afraid of muscles in the neck:

:)

[ronws]

Cool performance. That's almost like saying results are important, mechanics might be secondary, though I may presume too much with that statement.

Maybe a different way. He sounded great, whether he looked like he was "straining," or not. Even if he was straining. If it is repeatable for as long as that engagement lasts, let alone just the evening's performance, then good for him. I think that is what I meant to say.

[Danielformica]

that guy is about 6% body fat as well so you will see more veins and muscles than a fat dude...:)

[Felipe Carvalho]

Reduction of tension on neck and larynx as well are two very important factors to maintain vocal health, and such tensions are not necessary to sing, whatever style it may be. It may be necessary for interpretative resources, thing that should only be a concern after the technical side is well solved, so that the singer does not depend on the tensions to perform (the difference between making a choice and a limitation is that choices imply having other options).

[MasterBlaster]

Never heard of this guy before but he is fricken incredible. He can really rock out too. He really owns these songs. Great band too.

Rebel yell

Highway Star (Brace yourself for the 1st note)

Run to You

Kiss from a Rose (Not rock but very nice work here)

Roxanne (More cool stuff here)

Busking on the Street (Some great falsetto tones here)

[Felipe Carvalho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfC9LfR3PI

Unless you guys are singing material more difficult than this, and with better results than these persons, if you are using neck tension you are just wasting energy. As long as we are talking about technique of course, personal taste is something else, I like slipknot for example better than opera, that does not mean that Corey Taylor is a "virtuose" singer, and I doubt this was ever his goal.

The guy sounds great, but its not a reference of technique.

[Martin H]

Or as Jo Estill would say: "Only use the most comfortable vocal effort". Also, "neck anchoring" is one of the figures in EVT. :)

[Martin H]

Dante,

The main muscles activated with "neck anchoring" is the sternocleidomastoideus, and you shouldn't stick your head forward. It's used when singing with power like Belting. Also research shows that it is used in Opera as well. :)

[VideoHere]

oh man, this is the kind of voice i've been waiting to talk about.

bruno pelleteir's.....

this is a big voice with weight to it. it's a crying voice....it's a voice that leans and curbs......

listen carefully to how he sounds even when he sings soft, there's still a depth to it...there's metal in it. there's that

plaintiveness in the voice.

especially, kiss from a rose...like i've said his soft is someone's medium. this kind of voice has horsepower under it...

that's a powerhouse vocalist. sure, he can sing soft and sweet...but a different kind of soft and sweet.

[benny82]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfC9LfR3PI

Unless you guys are singing material more difficult than this, and with better results than these persons, if you are using neck tension you are just wasting energy. As long as we are talking about technique of course, personal taste is something else, I like slipknot for example better than opera, that does not mean that Corey Taylor is a "virtuose" singer, and I doubt this was ever his goal.

The guy sounds great, but its not a reference of technique.

Classical stuff ist not really a good comparison because you don't have to deal with compression levels as high as those in contemporary music. But I am pretty sure that at least Pavarotti (who is the most 'metal' of them all) DOES use neck tension on the high notes (A4 and above), you just can't see it well because of his chubbiness and beard.

The first example is very light mass and nowhere near the depth of Pelettier's voice on the high notes. This is an artistic choice of course, but there is still demand for heavier mass notes in the high range in some styles and genres. And its those heavier mass notes that require additional neck anchoring.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Which style requires you to press your voice to sing benny?

[benny82]

Which style requires you to press your voice to sing benny?

"pressing" your voice and vocal compression is not the same. Contemporary styles often use more compression, that's what I'm saying. It's also not a requirement, but an artistic choice of many contemporary singers.

And higher compression often puts up the need to supply additional anchoring through the neck. Pelletier did make that choice. He sings with quite high compression, higher than let's say an opera singer or a power metal singer. And for that it's not the worst choice to use neck anchoring as an additonal support.

[Owen Korzec]

"pressing" your voice and vocal compression is not the same.

Sure, but isn't "pressing" simply the act of compressing too much?

Unless you mean compression as in increasing subglottal pressure? But if you mean compression in the sense of simply adducting the vocal folds more strongly during phonation, if you overdo that, all other variables kept constant, you have a pressed phonation, as far as I know.

[benny82]

Sure, but isn't "pressing" simply the act of compressing too much?

Unless you mean compression as in increasing subglottal pressure? But if you mean compression in the sense of simply adducting the vocal folds more strongly during phonation, if you overdo that, all other variables kept constant, you have a pressed phonation, as far as I know.

Yes I mean subglottal pressure, not twang in that case. But you are right, "pressing" is the act of compressing too much. But there is of course no set threshold. Classical singers use less compression than contemporary singers most of the time, which doesn't mean that contemporary singers "press" all the time. They are a little bit closer to the threshold, though.

Here is a cool video by Sergio Calafiura with different levels of compression:

Compare the two Dio examples (around 7mins). The first one is very close to pressing and he even states himself that this is wearing him out, the second one is just high compression, but not "pressed".

The second one still has neck anchoring according to Sergio.

[VideoHere]

ah, benny, i heard this video last week, and man i can't tell you how many times i went back and forth listening to the two dio versions....the difference to me was very, very little.

i don't know about pressed singing....i'm not sure it's really that potentially detrimental or always wears you out faster...

i will press when i sing but not continuously...kind of stab and jab with it. there's times i actually like the pressed sound.

[Felipe Carvalho]

benny, ask your ENT what does neck tension during phonation and an increase in subglottal pressure means.

http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-34347214103&origin=inward&txGid=E7A01E1873C956561DB6317BE5DA3223.WlW7NKKC52nnQNxjqAQrlA%3a7

http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-57749139053&origin=inward&txGid=E7A01E1873C956561DB6317BE5DA3223.WlW7NKKC52nnQNxjqAQrlA%3a17

And about self perception of comfort, sensation alone is not reliable:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23462685/

[benny82]

benny, ask your ENT what does neck tension during phonation and an increase in subglottal pressure means.

http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-34347214103&origin=inward&txGid=E7A01E1873C956561DB6317BE5DA3223.WlW7NKKC52nnQNxjqAQrlA%3a7

http://www.scopus.com/record/display.url?eid=2-s2.0-57749139053&origin=inward&txGid=E7A01E1873C956561DB6317BE5DA3223.WlW7NKKC52nnQNxjqAQrlA%3a17

And about self perception of comfort, sensation alone is not reliable:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23462685/

It is important which muscles are involved. Of course there is also bad neck tension, but this is not meant by the neck anchoring figure from Estill. As Martin already pointed out, there are studies that show neck tension in a lot of classical singers, too, for example.

And sensation is the ONLY reliable measurement of comfort. No one can measure comfort from outside, as it is purely individual. PTP, as shown in the last study, is not a measurement of comfort, it is a measurement of effort, those are different things. Some singers can sing with lots of effort comfortably, other's can't, it's individual.

Additionally, the most effortless way of singing (close to PTP) often doesn't get you the sound you want. How much you can go above PTP and still feel comfortable is completely individual, which is the reason why they din't find correlation between subjective effort and PTP.

[Martin H]

The guy sounds great, but its not a reference of technique.

Felipe, who do you think is a good reference of technique?

[Felipe Carvalho]

Corey Taylor.

[Martin H]

I see - and why him?

[Martin H]

By the way, I just have to post the last scene from the musical, it's very touching, great singing:

:)

[ronws]

Corey Taylor is also a good author. I have read both of his books currently in publication.

His memoirs and his collection of real life ghost stories. It turns out, he is some kind of ghost magnet. He has a few that follow him whereever he goes. Why is that some guys get an entourage and the rest of us fly solo?

Anyway, in the memoirs, he first viewed himself as not a good singer because he simply did not and does not sound like Steven Tyler, his idea of the ultimate singer and songwriter. But, thankfully, his ego took over and he realized that to be a performer of importance, he need to find his own way. And created one of the most beautiful quotes I have seen.

"Imitation is the nicest flattery. Individuality is the only way to immortality."

In so doing, he created this growl, mainly to express a feeling, a sound effect, for some of the stuff in Slipknot, not so much with Stone Sour. Then, there followed all the young and new singers trying to train and get his sound.

Comedy and melancholy ensues .... enjoy the popcorn ... please silence your cellphones during the presentation of our feature ....

Taylor is a good model as a singer, for both his viewpoint and his actual singing ability. I don't even care if one calls it compressed, loose, or goosenfrabe. Sometimes, I just enjoy the singing.

[VideoHere]

and while we're on the subject of muscular necks...sorry folks, i have to throw in lou on this one.

i heard about guys who actually do neck curls off an incline bench (brother ron may be familiar with this) with a strap weight to build up the neck.

[Felipe Carvalho]

I see - and why him?

ahahahaha...

I could actually argue about how HE is actually doing something with his voice that can not be achieved using technique, but no, I mentioned him simply because its part of the post where you quoted me from. Just confirming you did not read it, curiously, I provided the references for technique that you wanted in there.

@benny

No man, saying that "sensation indicates comfort" is not useful. Comfort is the sensation, is what you feel. These people were saying "oh Im fine with this", or "this feels better" while producing more vocal effort. Thus, without training to reference what is comfortable and what is not, this sensation is as random as placement or "sending breath".

Illusion of low effort is not enough, the idea is reducing and still achieving a high level of quality. There is no room for personal sound ideals or taste when talking about technique. Either you are doing it, using the resources you have to reduce this effort, or you are not.

"Singing near PTP" is not the point. The point is lowering the the effort levels globaly while retaining quality and good results.

And if you decide to use more effort, good for you. All my favorite singers use it anyway, and a lot of what I use to sing WOULD be considered hyperfunctional phonation by my ENT. Awareness is what this is all about, its not by going blindfolded and repeating over and over to yourself that you will be safe that you will preserve your voice.

Quality and vocal health are two things directly connected. If you start adding tensions and constrictions before you can handle the material well (as in people would actually care to listen), you will be dependent on it, which makes it not a choice anymore, but a bad habit.