In absence of a 'psychological aspects of singing' thread...

[kalapoka]

As the title says, I am posting this question in the vocal technique section to ask something that's more psychological than technical - my question is -

what do you do when you are down? How do you pick yourself up and keep going when you feel like giving up? How do you make yourself practice when your mind and body gets lazy to the max?

I have been fighting depression and feeling blue with this pursuit of music ever since I started. First it was me against the guitar, now its me against my voice. There are many times when I just feel like giving up, and this has grown stronger since I've started a full time job 5 years ago. Even now, for the last two weeks I have not been practicing voice at all and playing guitar only now and then. I am saying to myself that I am back from a long trip so i am tired, the work is getting crazy, or the weather is bad, but deep inside I know all these are excuses. Yet I am finding it really difficult to find the strength in me to pick me up and start practicing again.

In addition, my lack of progress (IMO) also gets me further frustrated and depressed. I am still struggling with pitch issues in the lower and middle part of my voice.

I think its a personality thing, but does this happen to you? how do you deal with it?

[ronws]

What an excellent topic, Fahim (side note, phonetically, that would be said as fa'-heem, with fa being the same as the syllable in father (in English) and accent is on the syllable of heem, with the letters eem pronounced the same way as in the Engilsh word, seem, correct?)

First off, you are highly intelligent. For you speak and sing in English, which is one of the hardest languages to learn. It has been easier for me to learn Spanish and German because they are logical languages. But you speak English and, I assume, Hindi, and you probably read Sanksrit for all I know and obviously you read English. Imagine how much work it would take for me to learn to sing a song in your native language. Now, I am unusual, or an american. I like languages and they are like music to me. Out of many gringos (gringo is spanish slang for an american. It has nothing to do with skin color. A black person can be a gringo,) I am probably one of the few that can pick up different accents of Spanish. I can tell the difference in Spanish spoken by a mexican and that spoken by an honduran. It's as clear as the difference in how English is spoken by say Freddie Mercury and someone such as myself, from the southern half of the United States.

So, you've already jumped some major hurdles to get this far.

And that's one of the perspectives. When you think you can't go any farther, turn around and see how far you have travelled, thus far.

I have days when my voice is not cooperating. But I look at how far I have gone, too. In the early 80's, I couldn't hit a high C. Now it's not a problem.

Or I have problems with a song, like "I Remember You." I have sang other stuff in that range with no problem, yet, that one was elluding me. So, maybe move on and realize that some songs just aren't meant for me to do, at least in the original arrangement.

Or the disheartening fact that I often sound like Billy Corgan in a can on my recording set-up all because of a crappy mic when anyone that has heard me live can tell you I sound different than that. For example, I once did "Leader of the Band" by Dan Fogelberg so well that it brought my wife to tears.

And it's okay to take time off from singing. It can give you time to re-assess goals.

And we all have priorities that must be taken care of. When Velvet Revolver was looking for a new vocalist after Scott Weiland, I emailed them twice and have received no reply. Velvet Revolver really needs a high tenor if they want to capture the sound of their heavy blues hard rock vibe.

In the mean time, I have car payment to make. And food to put on the table. And even though my job market has been crappy the last few years, the easiest way for me to do that is electrical work. It is the largest part of my resume and gives the best wage I can scare up.

But that doesn't stop me from having aspirations and goals. In the short term, I should look for local bands that can work around my work schedule. Right now, I don't even have what you have, a band. And the few other local musicians I know are more into country music, which is fine, but not really my bag, so to speak. And even those guys have day jobs.

Some of our frustrations come from not being able to sound just like an inspiring singer on material that has meant so much to us. Which reiterates my supposition that each voice is unique and you will never truly sound like, for instance, Robert Plant because you are not Robert Plant. You may sound better than him, in fact. But you will never sound just like him. When Jack Russell sang with Stone Fury, no one knew his name. They just thought of him as the guy who sounds like Robert Plant in that song that sounds like it was ripped off from "Moving through Kashmir." When he got with Great White and they wrote their own stuff, then he became known for what he is. A blues singer with a delicate high end that was reminiscent of Plant's early days.

So, then, the next thing is to accept the sound that you have and make it the best and work with your strengths. To say that you can never hope to be as good as another singer is inaccurate. You won't sound like them, even if you sing in the same range. And you have to remember that they have access to a lot more technology than most of us "arm chair" recording engineers. Look at what Mutt Lange did for Joe Elliot. What could he do for you?

The advantage I have over a lot of people is that I don't know when to quit. It comes from being raised around the military, including special forces. My friend, Lee, was a SEAL. My assistant scoutmaster in Boy Scouts was an Army Ranger. He brough in his survival instructor to teach us basic survival. The phrase, "trained to eat things that would make a billy goat puke" is part of my upbringing. The only easy day was yesterday. Accomplish the objective regardless of obstacles.

It took me seven tries to pass my journeyman electrician exam. It took two tries to pass my master exam. I am where I am because I don't give up, though I may back up and find a way around an obstacle.

So, you may have personal obstacles and I think you will find a way around them. And, if possible, I will help when I can. To borrow a phrase from the SEALS, every one goes home (we work as a team, a unit.) hooyah ....

[ronws]

Another obstacle may be cultural. Where you live, the market for pop music may be such that the public only buys stuff that we call "oldies." Which means you are always doing covers of other songs and the human effect of comparing and compartmentalizing can't be avoided. India is not currently known for being the breeding ground of a new sound in rock, such as happened with Los Angeles in the 80's or Seattle in the 90's. But you could be the first. And this leads to the next thing to work on.

It is nigh unto a statistical fact that a singer sounds best on songs either written for their voice or written by themselves. Jamie Lane wrote "Cherry Pie" in 15 minutes. It's not nearly as high or strenuous as "Uncle Tom's Cabin." And it was the bigger hit. Point being, it was written in his voice, by him. So was "Uncle Tom's Cabin."

Or, have fun with a cover song. Quiet Riot was pressured by their producer to recored "Come on feel the noise" by Slade. The band was not fans of Slade and not really interested in doing their songs. Singer Kevin Dubrow admits that they did the song in one take, live (all instruments together, not looped tracks), mistakes and all, and he sang it as "crappy" as he could sing it. Instant monster hit.

In the mean time, go back to songs you know that you do well with and build upon that success. You have a great voice from what I can hear and the only one holding you back is you. Why? Because anyone can say that you sound like crap or you can't do this or you can't do that but only you stop yourself by believing their words.

[ronws]

One more thing. And this is not about me, this is about everyone one of us who has perceived an obstacle and why you must believe in yourself. This question is rhetorical, in that I don't expect an answer in the pursuit of a compliment, but to offer myself as an example. If you think I have done well on at least some of the submissions I have offered, remember that my mother and my grandparents, specifically my step-grandfather thought that most of my music was either crap or a diversion and that I would "out grow" it. Remember that up until about 1988, I thought myself barely able to manage baritone and tenor would be out of reach. My grandmother, who sang country in an alto range thought I would never be tenor. That I wouldn't be able to play classical guitar without lots of expensive lessons. I have done all those things. I have hit the high note in "Bohemian Rhapsody." I have hit the high note in "Dream On" clean and pure, making my friend Bruce flinch from the volume I generated.

My friend, Lee, told me I could never pass the master electrician exam.

As a young'n, watching "Jesus Christ, Superstar," I didn't think I would be able to sing "Gethsemane."

Some one tells me I can't do something. So, I go and do it.

You can, too. You just have to find your path to it.

[VideoHere]

kal, i'm feeling you man...it takes a lot a of courage to admit you're having issues with the voice, but i can promise you, promise you, you're not alone. it's completely normal and expected to have off days...days where you feel like you dropped back more steps than you can imagine, ...even the finest "pros" have off days...but remember too, you'll have, or you are going to have, days where you sing a song and you are doing things with your voice you have no idea how you did it and it's freaking magic. believe me, i know all too well that the exercises can get pretty boring at times, and goals like full voiced range increases can take a very long time to achieve. just adding a (consistent) lousy half-step can take a lot of time and a lot of perseverance.

the only advice i can give (as a singer, not a vocal teacher) is just take a week off, iand instead of physically exercising the voice, "mentally" exercise the voice with mental visualization of your exercises. make believe you're exercising without actually doing it............take your most admired high notes or magic moments of your favorite singers, play those parts, (over and over) and feel like it's you and not them who just sang..believe me, it's sounds a litte hard to believe but it works.

i should also mention how naive and shit scared i was when i lost my voice back in 2003 (had no idea why) due to chronic issue called acid reflux. i had idea, all i knew is i couldn't sing for shit.

i'm an avid karaoke buff, and even something as simple as karaoke can be daunting at times because the audience has a pre-conceived notion of your ability, so if i'm thought to be decent, and i try a new song, it's quite similar to a concert...there's very room for error..lol!!!

even at 56, i have hopes of singiing for a living one day. i can't imagine my life without it.

[VideoHere]

hey folks, how the hell do i highlight partial quotes?

[ronws]

hey folks, how the (scooby doo wah) do i highlight partial quotes?

To quote Freddie, "It's a kind of magic ...." :D

[kalapoka]

First of all, Ron - Thank you so much for taking that much time and effort to write such good replies. Sometimes we take something for granted and we don't even see it and we need someone else to point out the obvious - like you pointing me out about my English singing . That's something I never thought of.

You are right in all that you said. I have always pushed myself, got my stuff organized, never been into drugs and shit so that I could be straight and keep doing all that I want to do. Its just sometimes everything piles up against you. I do have the same never quit attitude, but from time to time I need a friend to tell me that too. I guess I found some more here.

Because anyone can say that you sound like crap or you can't do this or you can't do that but only you stop yourself by believing their words.

I needed to hear that. Thanks Ron.

And yes, you are absolutely right about how to say my name Fahim . But I am not from India (I know how its a natural assumption more because I sang that hindi song too LOL) but I am from Bangladesh, a small country beside India. We got our independence from Pakistan in 1971 after a bloody 9 month war. We are also THAT country for which George Harrison has sung the song 'Bangladesh' for in the historic concert with other great artists such as Ravi Shankar, Leon Russell etc in the concert - 'Concert for Bangladesh'. Do youtube it and wiki Bangladesh to know more about this beautiful and poor country

Bob -

Thanks for the words man. Its a pretty good idea and I actually do that visualisations all the time in my head but maybe not quite as strongly. Its definitely a good advice.

Also, please call me Fahim. Kalapoka is just a screen name

The way I personally deal with such days & weeks is watching a good concert video for inspiration. I will come back from work, throw either a great singer or guitarist's band and after watching them to the great things they do on their instruments, I will have a itch to do those myself. It usually works.

Sometimes finding some fresh music than your normal listening palate can also really help to pick you up. Right now I am just LOVING this song and having an itch to sing this with one of my female singer friends. Do check out this song!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB7T3lJ3dZ4

thanks again, my friends from far away lands :)

[ronws]

Sorry about the misunderstanding of countries. Sounds typically american of me.

I have noticed that in honduran, many write their last name first. So, is that the same with you, with Ashique being a surname and Fahim is your first or given name?

We often have nicknames or abbreviated name. My given name is Ronald but I go by Ron. My mother was the only one I allowed to call me Ronnie. Until I saw famous people named Ronnie like Ronnie James Dio and Ronnie Milsap. My first wife's name was Deidre but you pronounce the irish way (deer-dra) but her nickname was DiDi. I have a friend who's name is John David B****** (I protect his last name) but he prefers to be called David. Another friend was John Steven K***** but he prefers to be called Steve. You can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner.

Others have used my name to make a funny name. Ron Stone Cowboy (in reference to Glen Campbell's "Rhinestone Cowboy.") Or people will ask me if I am "stoned." My middle name starts with W but no one has ever called me by middle name. But, when I was in deep trouble, my mother would call me by first, middle, and last name. You knew you were in trouble if Mom called you by your whole name, which seemed superfluous since there was no one around with a name like mine.

Anyway, to continue with the topic, just keep working at it but take breaks when you need to. There's plenty of times, even recently, where I am working on a song and it just gets worse the more I work on it, especially if I am already "dead dog" tired. All I can do is put it away and try it another time. Or, I am working on a song and it's not coming easily. Then I get up and start doing the dishes. Something about standing and getting away from the pressure of recording "red light anxiety" and it flows easily.

And, if all else fails, do a different song that you know you can do. Success breeds success. Then, revisit the song. Is it worth doing again or are you better off singing something else? Not every singer sings every song from everyone else. They pick and choose what works with their voice. That being said, there's still nothing wrong with trying something new. Even if you botch it entirely, you may learn something. Or come up with a new sound you didn't know you had that may not work on that song but be really neat on another song.

Could it be called "singer's block" like writers who have writer's block? Sure, I think so. But you will never find a retired writer. They may or may not publish anymore but, from what I understand, writing is an addiction that cannot be cured, even after death. In the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life," the angel is talking about the book that Mark Twain is writing "now."

I also think it's normal to have the feelings of doubt, enui, disenchantment. And it's great to have inspiring videos, such as you linked. Anything worthwhile takes effort and time and we pursue it, good days and bad.

[ronws]

And I agree with Bob, too. As long as I am still living, I will be singing, somehow, somewhere. Is it possible to become a singing star, even at our age? Yes, it is. Actor Gene Hackman did not get into acting until late in life. he was previously a military man. He was past 40, I think, when he made it big. Mick Mars was already old when he got with Motley Crue. Now, he's old enough to play as God in a play but he is still out there, rocking.

Gene Simmons is so old that he invented God. And he's still rocking. He briefly had another reality show called Rock School. At this private school in England, he sang with just his guitar "God Gave Rock and Roll to You" in the cathedral. His voice is not as pretty as Paul's, but the performance was great, for me. This not from that show but it is for you.

[VideoHere]

First of all, Ron - Thank you so much for taking that much time and effort to write such good replies. Sometimes we take something for granted and we don't even see it and we need someone else to point out the obvious - like you pointing me out about my English singing . That's something I never thought of.

You are right in all that you said. I have always pushed myself, got my stuff organized, never been into drugs and shit so that I could be straight and keep doing all that I want to do. Its just sometimes everything piles up against you. I do have the same never quit attitude, but from time to time I need a friend to tell me that too. I guess I found some more here.

I needed to hear that. Thanks Ron.

And yes, you are absolutely right about how to say my name Fahim . But I am not from India (I know how its a natural assumption more because I sang that hindi song too LOL) but I am from Bangladesh, a small country beside India. We got our independence from Pakistan in 1971 after a bloody 9 month war. We are also THAT country for which George Harrison has sung the song 'Bangladesh' for in the historic concert with other great artists such as Ravi Shankar, Leon Russell etc in the concert - 'Concert for Bangladesh'. Do youtube it and wiki Bangladesh to know more about this beautiful and poor country

Bob -

Thanks for the words man. Its a pretty good idea and I actually do that visualisations all the time in my head but maybe not quite as strongly. Its definitely a good advice.

Also, please call me Fahim. Kalapoka is just a screen name

The way I personally deal with such days & weeks is watching a good concert video for inspiration. I will come back from work, throw either a great singer or guitarist's band and after watching them to the great things they do on their instruments, I will have a itch to do those myself. It usually works.

Sometimes finding some fresh music than your normal listening palate can also really help to pick you up. Right now I am just LOVING this song and having an itch to sing this with one of my female singer friends. Do check out this song!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB7T3lJ3dZ4

thanks again, my friends from far away lands

you're very welcome...hey great song man!!!

[ronws]

Sometimes, it's easy to get stressed from the culture clash, different expectations of culture. Being from Bangladesh, I calculate at least 50 percent odds that you are muslim. Islam has certain cultural expectations. Your family, such as parents and grandparents, will have expectations of you that arose out of their generations. And you have this song in your heart, while still having a faith (I don't know and that is most personal), but it need not conflict. 3 of the original members of KISS are jewish. And the march of the KISS Army has not diminished their faith. Neither should your pursuit of music diminish yours, if you have one.

And sometimes, parents can surprise you. Years later, my step-grandfather thought highly of the music of Pink Floyd. And for good reason, as it was and still is good music.

No, being bangladeshi (?) does not automatically mean that you are muslim, just as being from the US in the south imply that I am southern baptist or any kind of protestant. But the culture at large itself can still have an effect. The US was founded by "puritans," splinter groups from the Anglican Church of England. Olicer Cromwell and the roundheads eschewed the trappings of the english church and tried to separate themselves in looks and behavior as much as possible. That puritan sensibility is still in our culture in the name of hard work ethic and feeling guilty for spending time on "trivial pursuits." Why should you be singing when you should be tilling a field somewhere or some equally back-breaking work? That sort of thing.

I think it is possible to sing and play music with great gusto and still have the values of your faith and culture. Is it the puritan influence in my culture that makes me strive for "pure" notes? Maybe, maybe not, maybe it's just that my voice is strongest on a clean note.

Then, there's simply the frustration of being a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. If you sound like Bryan Adams (and you sound like a cleaner version of him on "Summer of '69"), that's fine. You can do songs that fit in the Adams type of sound, though I would call it the Fahim sound. Sometimes, the easiest and best way to progress is to not fight it. There are times when I have a problem with a song that is in a passagio. One can sing through a passagio but it might be problematic to sing a sing that is mostly in that spot, especially with certain words and what the vowel sounds dictate. In which case, work around the passagio. Personally, I have found that going higher, right into head voice is easier and stronger. Especially if it was just a few words in passagio. To the uneducated ear, it even sounds more impressive. By golly, you went higher than the original.

And each person is unique. Pat Boone will never hit the original high notes in "Holy Diver." And that's okay, I still like his version. It sounds darker than Ronnie James Dio. Boone could do all the exercises in the world and he is not going to sound like Ronnie James Dio. Neither will I. But we each can sound our best at what we do. So, if you never sound completely like Bryan Adams, that's okay. You sound like Fahim and that's even better. I like Bryan Adams even though, at times, I thought he could have used a throat lozenge. His singing was fine, but with such a gravelly rough tone, which fit with what he was doing. You have a voice that is as clear as a bell. Enjoy that.

[Mr Bounce]

You seem like a smart guy, and a lot of smart guys are super critical of themselves. That's important, because the higher your standard, the greater you will achieve. However, you musn't forget about what you've already achieved. Seriously, get a piece of paper and write down the things you have achieved, however great or small they are. Sometimes, we're so focused on moving forward and jumping higher that we forget where we came from and how much hard work we've done.

[joshual]

I'm like you and have often this feeling that i'm gonna quit singing for ever.

But, when i'm feeling like this, i just try to let go and take the guitar and sing just for fun, songs that are easier to sing, just try to enjoy myself. I sing the songs i used to when i started singing, songs like tears in heaven of clapton. When i started singing i could not get a E without pushing or yelling, now i can sing it really smooth whtout tension, vocal break etc.. i'm just enjoiyn myself and say to me " waou, i could'nt sing taht way before". and it really helps a lot.

Another time when everything in singing practice seems to go wrong, i just take my guitar again and sing a high pitch song and just sing it with anger like if i would scream at someone, and ho my god, it works. Ii got one song for that Static from mister big ( the acoustic version with Kotzen ;-) ). You know i just play the chords and boom it the singing like if i wanted to fight with it. And it really works well.

[kalapoka]

Ron, thanks again for your observations. You are quite analytical and from your writings I can tell you've read a lot. Yes, I am a muslim but only on paper. I don't practice and I don't believe in any organized religion. However, you are accurate in the cultural impositions that it could have on a young one who wants to do 'the different thing' from his/her parents. Add to that this being a 3rd world and poor country, and the pressure of having a well paid job is very high here. We also take care of our parents till the end so there are high expectations on the new generations, especially on the male child. It has been really difficult for me to balance both sides and its definitely taxing.

That being said, let me tell you that I am doing better now. I spent almost the whole day with vocal exercises and pitch problem areas and I can see progress. . I just gotta remind myself to keep at it every day. Thanks so much for being there with your encouragement.

And thanks also for your compliments on my sound (?) [clear as a bell? wow!]

[kalapoka]

...and a lot of smart guys are super critical of themselves.

Bounce, you are right about this one. I have such a severe case of this that I am seriously thinking of therapy. Only in our country we don't really have 'therapists' like in the US. All here are prescription psychologists (I think)

I am seldom happy with my own work and need a serious kick in the butt from a friend to take a moment to look back LOL

[ronws]

I was baptised a mormon and later ordained as an aaronic priest. My mother became a born-again christian and we studied the Bible, often during summer for hours at a time (her idea.) I have studied a little zen buddhism, Bushido (Spirit Way of the Warrior, known to most as Code of the Samurai). I have studied the Norse mythology of my ancestors from my natural maternal grandfather (german immigrant). And we have friends who are pagan. Welcome to the salad bar of religion.

[VideoHere]

my lack of progress (IMO) also gets me further frustrated and depressed.

fahim, here's another thing to help you. i'm closing in on the 5 month mark, and i feel like while i haven't hit great gains in full voice notes, the notes below them are so much more polished and structured.

and things are easier to hold out or elongate.. hope i've helped....these exercises definitely work if you work..

okay?

[kalapoka]

fahim, here's another thing to help you. i'm closing in on the 5 month mark, and i feel like while i haven't hit great gains in full voice notes, the notes below them are so much more polished and structured.

and things are easier to hold out or elongate.. hope i've helped....these exercises definitely work if you work..

okay?

Bob, ofcourse you have helped, mate. Thanks a lot! But I didn't understand this part :

these exercises definitely work if you work..

which exercises are you talking about?

[VideoHere]

Bob, ofcourse you have helped, mate. Thanks a lot! But I didn't understand this part :

which exercises are you talking about?

sorry..i didn't mean to imply that you don't work.

i was just saying there are vocal exercises which really take physical work.

there are a few exercises i do and one is called the "goog" gug" with a crying sound. when i finish them i get a great workout in the neck muscles.

another one is a diaphragm jiggling exercise...they can really tire you out.

[kalapoka]

sorry..i didn't mean to imply that you don't work.

i was just saying there are vocal exercises which really take physical work.

there are a few exercises i do and one is called the "goog" gug" with a crying sound. when i finish them i get a great workout in the neck muscles.

another one is a diaphragm jiggling exercise...they can really tire you out.

oh i got it now. no probs! you are right, a good vocal exercise session IS a workout I LOVE IT :D

[VideoHere]

oh i got it now. no probs! you are right, a good vocal exercise session IS a workout I LOVE IT

i was one those guys who put off exercises thnking they were boring and not needed, but they are needed and do help a lot.

[ronws]

i was one those guys who put off exercises thnking they were boring and not needed, but they are needed and do help a lot.

One of the most important things I have been learning is air pressure control. It sounds easy but it's not. Especially since I have spent most of my time singing over a guitar, without a mic, and the inclination is to "oversing" when, actually, less is more.