Are boxing, karate, and singing training methods comparable?

[WebAndNet.com]

On a side note on boxing, I note that theres no way you can learn boxing without an instructor. I was picking up books and watching exercises on the internet, much as we all do with singing, and friends were telling me not to, that you have to have an instructor watching you in real time, and it turns out they were correct. When I went down to the gym, I'd picked up all sorts of bad habits and tensions from not having an instructor watching me. I wonder how much that applies to singing too?

My opinion-- this depends on the type of training.

Scientific boxing, traditional Eastern martial arts, and “scientific” martial arts can be vastly different in their training methods. A great short book on this is “Zen in the Art of Archery”, written by a German professor visiting Japan after WW2. He learned with Zen archery priests for nearly a year, couldn’t understand why they were teaching him things having little to do with shooting arrows accurately, implemented accuracy methods, and promptly got kicked out of the temple. Begged his way back in, studied another two years not focusing on accuracy, had to leave Japan, and asked the Zen master what his goal was. The Zen master took him to a pitch black room, took two shots, hit the bulleye and split the arrow. Zen is concerned with the power of the subconscious, and is not a “scientific” boxing method training.

Sumo wrestling– there’s method of course, but its essence has to do with releasing the kundalini energy power in a short burst to knock one’s opponent out of the ring.

Great singing, in my opinion, has a lot to do with releasing one’s own natural voice (kundalini energy, Zen spiritual force, etc.), and the problem with “training” is that there are entire civilizations’ ideologies that basically say that scientific Western bodywork training is not optimal for the talented. Furthermore, in the restorative-health arts (how is one to sing great without first restoring?), e.g. yoga, Tai Chi, accupressure, it is obvious that there are entirely different therapeutic modalities than scientific ones.

So, the questions in training should be, in my opinion:

1. Is the focus restoration of the voice?

2. Is it disciplined scientific exercising of the voice?

3. Is it subconscious power of the voice?

Training methods, wehether in boxing or singing, here are completely different, and my opinion is that different individuals need entirely different training methods.

So, my answer is-- it depends on match among the student, the trainer, and training style; not whether training is needed, as it likely is inappropriate training.

[kalapoka]

Chen, just to clarify one thing...when you say western methods are 'scientific', do you mean eastern methods are 'not scientific'?

I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do following the World Tae Kwon Do Federation curriculum and have learned/practiced TKD and Eastern philosophies for many years (include the philosophies of my part of Asia - the Indian portion of the map). To me, it seems like the western 'scientific' methods are just modern methods being discovered as we speak, because the western civilization is comparatively newer than the Eastern civilization.

Therefore, I would say that what the west is discovering now have aleady been surpassed by the East with its cumulative knowledge from ancient times (also consider the fact that many ancient eastern/oriental libraries and knowledge centers/books/teachings have been destroyed by centuries of wars and invasion..example - the great library of ancient Iran). I would say that Eastern methods are scientific too, and actually it might even have surpassed the realms of 'science'. That is why the Zen could hit the bulls eye and split the arrow in the pitch black room - conventional science would say there's just no way that could be done (unless the zen master has infra-red vision )

Sorry I seem to have digressed from your topic, but just thought of sharing my views. And I agree with you that training methods should be different for each student depending on their individuality. However, there is a difference between 'competition' training and 'zen or lifestyle' training in martial arts (I am sharing from my experience in TKD). For those of us who have competed in TKD competitions, we had to undergo rigourous and 'set in stone' trainings so as to develop a very very strong set of all the required muscles, endurance and skills needed to compete and win. Maybe this part is comparable to the basics of singing - like proper posture, breathing etc?

For the 'next level' we would do meditation and visualizations and concentrate on our specific 'natural' skills. Example - I was a power kicker but I had a natural tendency to 'paddle back' when being attacked. So I worked on those areas. Maybe this can be related to - pitch, expressions, finding your own voice in singing?

What do you think?

[Matt]

Im sorry, I don't buy this ancient = better stuff at all, rather the opposite, but thats just me. Modern science knows much more than humans did thousands of years ago. Back then, man flying or walking on the moon or stitching a dead mans heart into a dying one to save him or being able to compute millions of multiplications per second was sheer fantasy. Today, its going out of style.

[jonpall]

Again I agree with Matt. Check out the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) or MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). In these competitions, the western martial arts just wipe out the Eastern ones. The guys using only Eastern martial arts (besides maybe Judo) are just not competitive. The ones who are, are the ones who train in one or more of the following arts: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Freestyle/greco roman/folkstyle wrestling, Judo, boxing and Sambo. That's pretty much it. They may incorporate moves from the Eastern arts but if their base isn't in that list I wrote, their not competitive. And you can say whatever you want that MMA doesn't represent "the street". Well, it's as close as it gets, it's that simple. And they train against RESISTING opponents who are attacking with REALISTIC attacks. But since this is a singing forum, I'd like to not get too much off track

But kalapoka and ronws - you should try out some of those arts I mentioned. I'm sure you'll love it! Cheers!

[joshual]

I don't wanna debate on old vs modern martial arts...

For me martial arts and singing have nothing in common. If we need that kind of things to sing it's just because society put a lot of pressure on people.

Don't say this, don't do that, don't speak loud, your speaking voice is crap so you can never sing etc.. You always have to show people you're brilliant, you're gifted etc... Go and listen to some african tribes music, you'll see that anyone can sing...

And martial arts for the western people is like boudhism or zen or yoga. It just can help to get more confidence. It help people to accept themselves.

Going to a psychiatrist has the same or better results, but again it's easier for people to read eastern philsophy or practice martial art in a club. you know it's better to say "Hey, since i'm practicing aikido, i really feel a lot more power in me, a better control of my emotions.." instead of " you know what it's been a year that i'm on therapy and i feel a lot better "

I love martial arts ( i'm a black belt in karate ) and sure it gives confidence, self control etc.. But i don't think you can relate that to singing.

Just my thoughts, as my english is awfull i'm sure i'm going to be misunderstood lol

[Mr Bounce]

Again I agree with Matt. Check out the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) or MMA (Mixed Martial Arts). In these competitions, the western martial arts just wipe out the Eastern ones. The guys using only Eastern martial arts (besides maybe Judo) are just not competitive. The ones who are, are the ones who train in one or more of the following arts: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Freestyle/greco roman/folkstyle wrestling, Judo, boxing and Sambo. That's pretty much it. They may incorporate moves from the Eastern arts but if their base isn't in that list I wrote, their not competitive. And you can say whatever you want that MMA doesn't represent "the street". Well, it's as close as it gets, it's that simple. And they train against RESISTING opponents who are attacking with REALISTIC attacks. But since this is a singing forum, I'd like to not get too much off track

But kalapoka and ronws - you should try out some of those arts I mentioned. I'm sure you'll love it! Cheers!

I love MMA but don't forget that it is still a sport. A wide range of techniques are allowed, but there are still rules and regulations which make it at least a little different from "real life" confrontations.

[jonpall]

Yeah but even during the first few competitions, those same arts ruled the earth, basically - when they were no rules except no biting and no eye gouging - and one guy even cheated and bit Royce Gracie, the famous BJJ practisioner, which did little to Royce, except that he choked him out a few seconds later We will never be able to train exactly like in a street fight scenario but MMA, especially old style MMA is what comes closest.

[WebAndNet.com]

To me, it seems like the western 'scientific' methods are just modern methods being discovered as we speak, because the western civilization is comparatively newer than the Eastern civilization.

Therefore, I would say that what the west is discovering now have aleady been surpassed by the East with its cumulative knowledge from ancient times (also consider the fact that many ancient eastern/oriental libraries and knowledge centers/books/teachings have been destroyed by centuries of wars and invasion..example - the great library of ancient Iran). I would say that Eastern methods are scientific too, and actually it might even have surpassed the realms of 'science'. That is why the Zen could hit the bulls eye and split the arrow in the pitch black room - conventional science would say there's just no way that could be done (unless the zen master has infra-red vision )

There are many areas that Western thought and practice are superior to Eastern. Science, engineering, political thought.... But in the area of psychology, therapies, and spirituality, I agree with Kalapoka--the East is superior. Singing is closer to psychology and spirituality than science and technology, and I tend to believe that advancements in singing methods are only starting, when one incorporates Eastern ideas.

[Mr Bounce]

Yeah but even during the first few competitions, those same arts ruled the earth, basically - when they were no rules except no biting and no eye gouging - and one guy even cheated and bit Royce Gracie, the famous BJJ practisioner, which did little to Royce, except that he choked him out a few seconds later We will never be able to train exactly like in a street fight scenario but MMA, especially old style MMA is what comes closest.

You can make it more realistic... if it was 3v1 and they have weapons :P

[jonpall]

But in the area of psychology, therapies, and spirituality, I agree with Kalapoka--the East is superior.

You're probably right.

Singing is closer to psychology and spirituality than science and technology, and I tend to believe that advancements in singing methods are only starting, when one incorporates Eastern ideas.

Hmm, what about f.ex. CVT - a danish vocal institute that has done some advancements in singing methods? I don't think there is anything eastern about their ideas.

[WebAndNet.com]

Hmm, what about f.ex. CVT - a danish vocal institute that has done some advancements in singing methods? I don't think there is anything eastern about their ideas.

Wish I knew more about them.

[Martin H]

http://www.completevocalinstitute.com/

:)

[ronws]

I haven't weighed in on this yet because I wanted sort out my thoughts, as well.

I have no advanced belt or ranking in any style. But my study and instruction includes Kenpo Karate, Kung Fu (northern shaolin style), Tai Chi (short form), Tae Kwon Do, Aiki-jujutsu (a cross between Aikido and Jujutsu), Jeet Kune Do (both the basic moves and the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do"), and Bushido ("Spirit Way of the Warrior", aka code of the Samurai). And some special instruction from my friend, Lee, US Navy SEAL 1964-69, Da Nang, Viet Nam. There are some basics you have to know, regardless of style, I think.

In that vein, I might say the same thing about singing. As you become comfortable with basics you can "improvise," free-style spar, as it were. But, then, as I learned some things from my SEAL friend, there's "dojo" martial arts and then there's how you survive in the jungles of southeast Asia, or even a dive bar in New Orleans, La. ( A whole 'nother story.)

So, in a sense, exercises are essential but there comes a time when the basics are put into action, to succeed or fail.

[kalapoka]

In reference to the west vs east argument, I do agree that the west has made astonishing progress over the last century. And definitely its way ahead in many areas. However, my point in relation to martial arts is inherent in what Jonpall says that MMA or BJJ or UFC fightings being a new art form being more aggressive and representing the street. Yes they do what you claim, but the ancient arts like Kung Fu, Tai Chi & Karate, when done for life and incorporated into your lifestyle, helps develop your mindset so as to 'avoid' these fighting situations all together. I don't know how i can really express this view point. But I think there is much more advancement for the human race in general if an art form teaches you more to be peaceful and calm, given that hate and aggression brings more hate and aggression in the world. That is one of the core beliefs of east respresented in the symbol of Yin-Yang, that a hard force must be met by a soft force or else there will never be peace and harmony in the world.

Regarding medicine & surgery, yes there has been unbelievable progress in the west in the last century but there is no denying the power of oriental herbs and reiki the healing touch school. In my opinion, the advancement here is not in 'stitching hearts together', rather in the lifestyle choices, food habits and medication of east, which is best in prevention rather than cure. I think that is why the chinese (not the new generation, but the older ones who are the last generation of old china) live longer and healthier in general than the west.

About singing I can refer to the Indian school of classical singing, which I am exposed to given my geographic location. In the indian classical system, there are 24 tones, and sometimes even more. The singers and the musicians are aware, can sing and can make music with all the micro-tones which are not used in the western classical music. (they can sing a distinct note between a C & C#) Add to that all the various odd-meters and countless raagas, which are memorised, practised and improvised with by the classical musician/singer. And this is an ancient knowledge, and such singers are trained from their childhood and for life. Students will usually be with one guru/master for their whole life.

again, there are many arguments on the opposite as well. and in no way I am saying one is 'better' than the other. I have lots of western influences and would love to migrate and settle somewhere across that big pond. I particularly love the freedom inherent in western culture (a good representation of such freedom is free-form jazz). I am just saying since civilization was developing much earlier in the east (the chinese was producing and writing on paper much earlier than the rest of the world), there is a vast pool of knowledge here which I believe is disappearing alarmingly soon, and the younger generations of the east being bombarded by western media and globalization is not helping either.

Just my 2 cents. Absolutely no offense meant to anybody. This is a great discussion!

[Matt]

but there is no denying the power of oriental herbs and reiki the healing touch school

There sure is...Dont even get me started on homeopathy

But I think there is much more advancement for the human race in general if an art form teaches you more to be peaceful and calm

Training Muay Thai taught me that whereas I used to be cocky and think I could handle myself, I really didnt have a clue what to do if I got into trouble with someone who was trained and Im less confrontational for that

Training boxing taught me nitty gritty humbleness and dont come down to the gym with attitude because those old bears have seen all the tough, flash guys come and go after a spanking

Training both taught me to avoid talking about these activities as self defence or anything other than a sport if you dont want everyone in the locker room to frown at the new tough guy on the block

[ronws]

Training both taught me to avoid talking about these activities as self defence or anything other than a sport if you dont want everyone in the locker room to frown at the new tough guy on the block

Ain't that the truth? People get their dander up when you talk about your training and it just eggs them on to want to fight and fight more.

[jonpall]

Fahim, maybe it's different for the type of people who come from street fighting backgrounds and start to train and then compete in MMA, but for most people who train BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, etc. they actually get CALMER after a bit of training - probably because they now KNOW how tough and complex real fights can be and they want none of that.

I used to train in some estern styles and thought to myself that I didn't really mind if I got in a street fight (which didn't happen to me), but after switching over to BJJ and MMA, I try to avoid fights more than ever, because my understanding of those situations is much higher after having learned those western styles. I no longer have a fairytale view of myself being able to beat up a whole street gang with my bare fists. For sure, the best self defence is awareness and common sense. Peace!

[Matt]

The Zen master took him to a pitch black room, took two shots, hit the bulleye and split the arrow. Zen is concerned with the power of the subconscious, and is not a “scientific” boxing method training.

Sumo wrestling– there’s method of course, but its essence has to do with releasing the kundalini energy power in a short burst to knock one’s opponent out of the ring.

Hmmm, Im a skeptic...to me this is like concentrating and projecting all your 'yan su' into one point, the 'xun chang' and shooting

it through your opponent with your 'long hai'. This, with training, will increase the power of an incorrect punch thrown from the shoulder many times, quite possibly ten-fold in more extreme cases.

That all sounds mystical and cool until you translate it to a very straightforward and scientifically correct explanation:

"to me this is like concentrating and projecting all your 'bodyweight' into one point, the '2 first knuckles' and shooting

it through your opponent with your 'back foot, legs and hips'.

Even that sounds somewhat magical - concentrate all your power/bodyweight to the two knuckles? Its not mystical at all, much like understanding pharyngeal voice that adds a whole, previously impossible octave, you can understand it fairly quickly with training and getting used to the feeling, but then you need to practice until it gets easier and easier - soon you're quite literally concentrating all you bodyweight to a small point in your fist, but its not in the slightest mystical once you understand the feeling. Once you understand that, even Bruce Lees 2 inch punch doesnt seem that strange, because the power shouldnt be coming from the arm or shoulder at all, theyre supposed to be relaxed and allow your bodyweight to shoot through your arm. Any good boxer, without ever having practiced Lees 2" punch would be able to do a reasonably acceptable 2" inch punch because the power has nothing to do with how far the arm has top travel. In fact, in boxing, close quarters punches are the hardest, a la Joe Frazier.

[Snax]

Hmmm, Im a skeptic...to me this is like concentrating and projecting all your 'yan su' into one point, the 'xun chang' and shooting

it through your opponent with your 'long hai'. This, with training, will increase the power of an incorrect punch thrown from the shoulder many times, quite possibly ten-fold in more extreme cases.

That all sounds mystical and cool until you translate it to a very straightforward and scientifically correct explanation:

"to me this is like concentrating and projecting all your 'bodyweight' into one point, the '2 first knuckles' and shooting

it through your opponent with your 'back foot, legs and hips'.

Even that sounds somewhat magical - concentrate all your power/bodyweight to the two knuckles? Its not mystical at all, much like understanding pharyngeal voice that adds a whole, previously impossible octave, you can understand it fairly quickly with training and getting used to the feeling, but then you need to practice until it gets easier and easier - soon you're quite literally concentrating all you bodyweight to a small point in your fist, but its not in the slightest mystical once you understand the feeling. Once you understand that, even Bruce Lees 2 inch punch doesnt seem that strange, because the power shouldnt be coming from the arm or shoulder at all, theyre supposed to be relaxed and allow your bodyweight to shoot through your arm. Any good boxer, without ever having practiced Lees 2" punch would be able to do a reasonably acceptable 2" inch punch because the power has nothing to do with how far the arm has top travel. In fact, in boxing, close quarters punches are the hardest, a la Joe Frazier.

I agree completely with this post! Singing is a physiological event and requires a physiological approach in my opinion. Once you have mastered the muscle memory to sing with techniques that are less strenuous and promote open throat etc you can relax and just sing with feeling.

In Aikido I have learned not to resist energy but to blend with it and the same can be said for singing. Why fight your bodies natural inclination to protect itself? Listen to babies vocalizing and crying...they do it instinctively in a way that isn't hurtful on their little voices. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to scream and cry as long as they do! ;)

[Matt]

Thats interesting, because Aikido is different than boxing. Aikido, as I understand it, is the soft way, like judo, you allow and assist the opponent to move in a direction that will take him off balance and once he's off balance he needs very little force to topple. Boxing is the hard way, it attacks with full force, yet you still need to be just as relaxed and loose to allow your strength/bodyweight to sort of flow through body, pushed off from your feet and then flow through your relaxed arm. If your biceps is tense when extending, you slow your whole punch down, because the biceps pulls back, and slower speed=weaker power.

[Snax]

Aikido can be hard also and does include some atemi (strikes) depending on the style one is practicing. The point I was trying to make was that we don't do things the hard way when their is an easier and relaxed option available. Hope that makes sense? So when we sing higher and higher why do we tend to tense up? It's very strange really isn't it!

[Matt]

I guess its why beginner boxes tense their arms and shoulders as hard as they can before learning that the power isnt coming from that place at all. It seems logical: Hitting is done with the arms, hence use the arms as hard as possible; Singing comes from the neck (so it seems anyway when you're new) and hence you work as hard as you can with the neck?

the kundalini energy power in a short burst

Without knowing anything about Sumo, I would bet a lot that that is simply (to dumb it down a bit) learning the technique of moving/driving your body weight forward in a rapid burst. Driving the kind of weight those guys have very quickly towards me would send me flying. The mantra in boxing is: Mass * Speed = Power

[WebAndNet.com]

Nothing mystical about any of the Eastern arts, at our level of discussion. How does a mother manage to lift a VW when she sees her baby in harm? How are yogis able to slow down their respiration and be buried alive for many days? How did that Olympian long jumper (can't recall his name) manage to suddenly set a jump record about 1 foot longer than prior records (pardon me if I got the details wrong)? How are Tibetian monks able to control body temperatures such that freezing cold towels are steam dried by their bodies? The examples of "mystical" activities are endless.

These say that there's something about human potential that physiology and anatomy inquiry don't have a good understanding of. Practice all you want, but, by Eastern views, the vast majority of people's potentials are hardly released.

Human potential, including singing potential, is great. The East is saying that such potential can be controlled at will. Consider learning how to release your potential!

[WebAndNet.com]

How much potential, including singing potential?

Ancient Athens probably had less than 20,000 citizens; yet, they produced the best in philosophy, literature, sculpture, mathematics, science, (the list go and on); some believe that their best thoughts still exceed ours. Yet, Plato suggests that even the Athenians are not close to reaching their potential.

That's how much potential you really have. And we're not even considering your mystical potential.

[Matt]

Well, theres a yogi right now who claims he hasnt eaten or drunk water for years. News articles even posted that clinical experiments supported his claim. When western scientists checked the control methods it turns out that those standards aren't close to what western clinical standards demand. Was he ever left alone? The answer was absolutely no, no, no, until western scientist delved into it and found that yes, he was left alone for short periods each day.

Few breatharians have submitted themselves to medical testing; of those that have, none have undergone peer review with results independently reproduced. In a handful of documented cases, individuals attempting breatharian fasting have died.[6][7] Other studies of alleged breatharians have exposed them as frauds.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia