Martin H Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Yes, air pressure and flow are inversely proportional. At least to some degree. In phonation it is probably better to speak of the ratio between air pressure and flow. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmike092 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 martin, what do you think about post #117 where i describe how i think cord closure is separate from support and you can support too much or too little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 an analogy ive read is its like air in a balloon, the more you pinch and apply pressure the less air is going to escape, with the pinching being tensing your support muscles. but this is only based on what ive read and my experimenting, im not an expert so im curious what other people on here think. the air ballon is cool but look at it like the opening of the ballon is closure of the cords if it goes limp the ballon deflates if its nice and taunt the ballon deflates slowly which is why closure is directly involved in what is "support". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmike092 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 i see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 martin, what do you think about post #117 where i describe how i think cord closure is separate from support and you can support too much or too little? Mike, that's a question of definition. For some people support is only about respiration. However, the vocal folds plays a crucial role in adjusting the ratio of air pressure and flow just like a valve. That's why you can't separate those two in my opinion. But once again, that depends on how you define support. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yes, air pressure and flow are inversely proportional. At least to some degree. In phonation it is probably better to speak of the ratio between air pressure and flow. The resitance/impedance, yes. However, you can increase/reduce both at the same time, they are only inversed related from the point of view of fixing the exhalation force and looking at the effect of a the laryngeal coordination. A loud scream will have both more pressure applied AND flow ( more power) in relation to a soft, quiet quality, at the same pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Felipe, That's correct. Which is also why I mentioned to some degree. Thanks for elaborating Felipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 No problems. Question Martin: If we presume a high variablity of the ratio in function of time, what are the choices to keep the flow stable and adequate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Felipe, There's a lot of choices (making it highly complex). If we are only focusing on the power (breath) then it depends on what kind of lung volume you are using. At the level of the source (vocal folds) and filter (vocal tract) regulation is done by the many ways you can increase resistance, where in phonationn the amount of vocal fold adduction is the most common :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yes, exactly, given this high variablity, what are the choices that could handle most of them? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Felipe, Hard question. I would say diaphragmatic control (the diaphragm is a sort of relay) and vocal fold adduction. But that's just a general guess. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 wait a minute folks.....are you saying the more you lean into the vocal folds (the more fold adduction) the greater the support? or am i mistaken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Bob, No, for my part, that's not what I'm saying. Vocal fold adduction is a way to adjust the air pressure and flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 agreed. thanks. in fact, what i notice is support is what helps me to sort of lay the breath pressure against the folds rather than bombard the folds with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I agree Martin. And if such coordination is used, it would also require more exhalation force. Agreed? Lets think of an unvoiced release, with an open glottis (near zero impedance on the emission/vocal tract). I can either just release a given flow that I will call F. Or I can use more exhalation force than I need, and oppose it using the relay action. Lets say that I had the same resulting flow, F'. So F and F' are the same. True or false? What if I calculate the ratio between this flow and the exhalation force applied to generate it, what would be a good name to call it? Impedance of the vocal tract can be related directly to closure, and what about this one? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I agree Martin. And if such coordination is used, it would also require more exhalation force. Agreed? Exhalation force in regards to what? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 You lost me Felipe. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDEW Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Some of this discussion is bordering on a paradox. The more air pressure you apply to the vocal folds the more closure force you need to keep the folds closed in the first place. Holding the air back with diphramatic support should be to make it easier for the folds to stay together. They work together! Give the illusion of power with the balance of cord closure and air pressure. Yeah, seems easy to write it down not so easy when actually applying it. But, I am no teacher so what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 You lost me Felipe. How so martin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 you lost me too felipe..lol!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Felipe, I can't follow your logic. Maybe it's a language thing. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny82 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 What if I calculate the ratio between this flow and the exhalation force applied to generate it, what would be a good name to call it? Impedance of the vocal tract can be related directly to closure, and what about this one? Extrinsic anchoring Without going too detailed into physics again, I think the ratio between a flow and the energy to create that flow is always some kind of resistance or impedance (or the inverse of one depending on what you divide through what). If you create the same flows F = F' with different exhalation forces, the impedance has to be higher for the one with higher exhalation force. The impedance of the vocal tract is created by fold adduction and by the shape of the vocal tract obviously. The impedance of the breathing system is created by antagonistic action of the inhaling muscles against the exhaling muscles. The first one is what is often called "intrinsic" support or anchoring, the second one is "extrinsic" support or anchoring. I think this is pretty well-defined in the TVS concepts of intrinsic and extrinsic anchoring. Both have a function in regulating airflow. When people talk about "support" they often talk about only extrinsic anchoring or both of them combined, so I aggree with Martin that it depends on the definition of "support". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Yes benny. But now you are calling it anchoring. The term anchoring as far as I know is used to define muscle tension used to stabilize the system, as Martin himself defined so many times, a framework that is stable. What if we compare the impedance of the source+vocal tract against the impedance of the system now? Isnt it true that you can have more or less of it? Isnt it also true that the result is a higher impedance flow source, allowing more dynamic variations without instabilities on the air collum? If its true, how many ways are there to achieve this same thing, except by using the antagonism of both coordinations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpall Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 you lost me too felipe..lol!! You had me at hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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