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The position of the larynx while singing and low larynx benefits?

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mcharis
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Hello fellow singers,

I have read a lot of stuff about vocal technique the last few months, so I apologize if my post will sound little confusing, I might also be little confused.

Lurking through this forum, I read many positive posts mentioning Robert Lunte and I check some of his videos and he seems like a person who really knows the science behind singing.

Anyway, at one of his videos he showed how a low larynx, especially at the high notes, can help the singer to produce that rich impressive sound and he calls that as "world class" sound.

But I notice when he was doing this, he was also changing his position of his mouth and the vowel also becomes darker.

But others claim that some famous singers actually keep a neutral larynx. But when I hear many singers belting at the high notes, I do hear a "deepness" in the voice and a lowered larynx might indeed be the "little" secret many professionals use to create that sound.

But I also read that pushing the larynx too low with the root of your tongue may actually harm you, so it is good to know how to really control it.

And then I also read that in pop/rock singers use neutral/high larynx

and only in classical training they use the low larynx position.

(that was the absolute confusion)

And then I know for a fact because I study Bel Canto, about the yawn position, which lowers the larynx and this is how many singers are able to produce a darker, richer, fuller sound.

The lowering larynx was a novelty in the 1830s, Garcia first introduced this technique singing with a lowered larynx.

From what I have read, before Garcia, singers might have used a higher position or a neutral larynx to sing opera, and that is making the voice to sound brighter and maybe more agile, but this might be because of the technique not necessarily the position of the larynx because when I lower my larynx gently, I find it easier to sing coloratura.

What you guys think? did you try in pop/rock singing this? what is your input?

:)

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It's all about balance and what soundcolor you want. You want to train your larynx to be able to have both high/low/neutral larynx through your range, so you can choose.

Robert luntes pillars has exercises for all of this :)

So in a sense it's about taste, what you prefer.

Cheers

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:P

ok, so in opera at the bel canto style for example, they use the lower larynx technique thorough the range.

but not very much not to create problems.

then in pop/rock some singers who make an impressive "belting", they use the technique of lowered larynx at the higher notes or when they want to "belt", but at the rest of the song depends how they want to portray it or express it, might use neutral, or lowered larynx?

well, high larynx for me is not something I would like to use anymore, but I guess it is good to know how it feels more consciously, to avoid it.

right?:)

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The louder you sing the more the area just above the vocal folds will narrow (epilarynx). Keeping the larynx low will counteract that narrowing (dilating the area). That's why that in belting, a higher larynx is advised NOT a lower larynx.

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What Martin states is true, in belting a higher larynx is preferred. But still it's a balanceact as it's perfectly possible to have the larynx to high for the apropriate pitch and the sound chokes as the swallowingmuscles gets to engaged.

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ok, thats great info, I guess the word belting the way I understand it, is wrong.

what I want is to produce a deeper, darker sound at the higher notes in rock/pop singing than just thin and forced squeezed sound.

what Robert talks about the lowered larynx at the higher notes I thought the term is belting.

sorry If I confused anyone.

:)

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ok, so in this example you are positioning your larynx higher (or neutral?).

but at the video of Robert his positioning his larynx lower when he does the same thing.

wouldn't both be called belts technically? one with a higher or neutral larynx the other with a lowered larynx?

what did you MDEW posted? im curious :)

thank you all for your replies I think I understand it better.

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There is another thread about making it easier to Belt G4-Bb4(for the guys). My comment mistakenly posted here was "Are you talking about "Chest Belt", Rock Belt", Estill Belt, CVT Belt, TVS Belt, Mix Belt........." These seem to me to take different approaches for the different sounds. Robert does use a lowered or "Dampened larynx" for a certain effect that he is going for, but for some styles and sounds if you use a lower larynx you can hurt your voice.

I am no teacher and I have been confused on this before. Even the ideas on "Support" if crossed with different sounds can be a benifit or a mistake depending on the sound you are producing.

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from the source below, i don't think belting is used in classical music.

"Belting requires muscle coordination that is not readily used in classically trained singing, which is why some opera singers, especially those of higher vocal Fachs, find learning to belt extraordinarily challenging."

http://www.singwise.com/cgi-bin/main.pl?section=articles&doc=BeltingTechnique&page=4

i dont know the specifics but from what i've read from steven fraser, i believe it has to do with using certain frequencies (formant tuning) that make the sound be perceived as louder than what it is. i may be wrong on that though.

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i believe opera singers that sound really loud are still using a lowered larynx, there just using certain frequencies that enable them sound loud and be heard over an orchestra without a mic and have that opera sound. i believe that's what ive read, but im really not the person to ask.

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ok, today was larynx position day (for pop) for me.....

It was very challenging not to raise the larynx for some reason, even though in opera this is no problem for me, when I did manage to produce a sound with a lowered larynx and I record myself, for me, the difference was big.

My higher notes weren't anymore childish, they had a nice deep, more female sound to it, it has a color and heaviness similar to the one I produce in my opera singing, but without the obvious opera sound.

Another positive thing that I notice, was that it didn't need any extra force, the sound would be already "big", it doens't need to be pushed, i did push it, just to check various volumes, and I realize that regular airflow/push is much better. Plus with a mic that can sound even more impressive (i hope:lol:)

And I felt my vocal cords less heavy afterwards.

Thats my personal experience, but it is something that I have to train, but I have to add that I didn;t lower my larynx too much, just enough to have the "open throat" technique.

other than that I also notice that it was better to direct the sound to my "mask" as a head voice, or else would be too "muddy", I hope thats the correct term.

:)

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ok, today was larynx position day (for pop) for me.....

It was very challenging not to raise the larynx for some reason, even though in opera this is no problem for me, when I did manage to produce a sound with a lowered larynx and I record myself, for me, the difference was big.

My higher notes weren't anymore childish, they had a nice deep, more female sound to it, it has a color and heaviness similar to the one I produce in my opera singing, but without the obvious opera sound.

Another positive thing that I notice, was that it didn't need any extra force, the sound would be already "big", it doens't need to be pushed, i did push it, just to check various volumes, and I realize that regular airflow/push is much better. Plus with a mic that can sound even more impressive (i hope:lol:)

And I felt my vocal cords less heavy afterwards.

Thats my personal experience, but it is something that I have to train, but I have to add that I didn;t lower my larynx too much, just enough to have the "open throat" technique.

other than that I also notice that it was better to direct the sound to my "mask" as a head voice, or else would be too "muddy", I hope thats the correct term.

:)

One question, why dont you go for the type of sound you want and let the larynx adjust itself after that? atleast thats what i found works the best, else experimenting with this type of things with a good teacher.

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One question, why dont you go for the type of sound you want and let the larynx adjust itself after that? atleast thats what i found works the best, else experimenting with this type of things with a good teacher.

Yeah, but Jens, that would be like concentrating on tone and relevant volume rather than worrying about the throat. And we just can't have that. ;)

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hi Jens,

because when I used to do this, it was all wrong and my vocal cords would hurt for days.

But I stop trying to "control" it and I saw better results because I educate myself better of the throat physiology and I still have a lot of things to learn. I believe after someone allows softly and correctly the voice to come out and has the first feeling of proper placement, after that someone can experiment and discover the sound ones wants to make by choice instead by ignorance, because if you are ignorant, then more vocal problems will arise and frustration and I know this first hand.:)

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Yes if the singer is ignorant of a hurting troat and smokes you pay the price. Learning your own voice and your iwn voice signs is the best lesson you can have.

only you can pull the brake if you sing over your own ability or technique, thats why it's crucial specialy when your learning new techniques or sounds.

"does this feel uncomfortable cause it's new or cause it's hurtfull"

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Yes if the singer is ignorant of a hurting troat and smokes you pay the price. Learning your own voice and your iwn voice signs is the best lesson you can have.

only you can pull the brake if you sing over your own ability or technique, thats why it's crucial specialy when your learning new techniques or sounds.

"does this feel uncomfortable cause it's new or cause it's hurtfull"

Along those same lines and the thought of allowing the body to do what it needs to do......

Just this morning I was trying something new. I never yelled as a child. All of my phonations was either strait Chest(under G4 Passaggio) or Falsetto(Stretched CT, stiff fold, Mickey Mouse) or variation of falsetto. Trying to get Higher than G4would squeeze my throat muscles.

Here is the Irony instead of Squeezing the throat muscles I allowed the throat to narrow on its own. No more tight feeling in the neck, Note above G4, Feeling of power in the sound......... The only thing that I did feel was that there is too much air crossing the cords and a little discomfort on the cords themselves from the air flow and vibration.

But this is the first time I had ever used this coordination. Is it good or bad? that remains to be seen and felt in time.

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@Martin: Then how do classical singers sing so loud with a low/ neutral larynx position?

My point is that it's usually easier to belt with a higher larynx. It's possible to lower the larynx to an extend, but it becomes progressively more difficult the more you try to lower it because of the reasons I stated in my first post.

If you are trying to belt and at the same time lowering the larynx you are doing two opposite movements at the same time which requires a lot of balance.

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Hello Martin,

I have been lurking a lot at this forum and thank you and all of the members for sharing their knowledge, I can say for sure this forum must be literally a place of maybe the best singing info in the world :)

While in opera I have found a better placement, in pop singing I was still struggling a lot.

Yesterday I was testing my voice in an opera position and I was trying to make that sound more "forward"? Im not sure what is the correct word, so I apologize if I create confusion, but the result was that it sounded like I was singing with a southern accent:/

Then I discover more consciously the twang. Today I was exercising an intense twang position (not pushed, just more ducky sound), I tried to have a neutral larynx, and when I felt that I "got it" I was producing the Anastasia sound, but because Im not interested of such sound, unless I want to use it for stylistic purposes, I tried to control it, to use it less intense and I lowered my larynx a little bit.

This is when finally a voice came out and I was "belting", without force, full, connected and I notice that it didn't need too much air or push. If I was forcing air (because of old habits), I would feel it right away in my vocal cords like it is too much on them , so I was adjusting the air to healthier levels.

My mother used to sing professionally for years in Greece, and today she heard me and she said, she never heard me creating such sound before. It is a good quality of sound.

Basically this is a historical moment for me, and I should keep the date, on my little adventure in singing:D

Someone in some old posts mentioned that singers in Bel Canto do use "twang" a lot, or should I say, the mechanism that triggers twang is been used in the Bel Canto technique?

I don;t know if this is true or not, but from my observations it may be true and it worked for me.

So, my point is, that depends the singer, the way you want to sound, the style, etc... belting for some may be easier with a twang and a neutral or lowered larynx, (I hit today amazingly easy very high notes.) and for others it is easier with a higher larynx.

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