Mind if I ask some real noob questions?

[Rick Jones]

Hi guys and girls,

Forgive the green-ness of my posts, I am not new to singing, but am new to discussing or analysing it, and as such, my path to improvement isn't as simple as I imagined it would be.....go figure!

Firstly, as I have no piano, using my guitar as a reference, just to be clear.....my low E string is an E2? Am I correct?

So, my high E string is E3? The octave E on this string at fret 12 is E4?

So tenor high C.....could I ask where this is please? Which C ?(4 or even 5?).

Also, alot is made of having a twang configuration when shifting up to higher registers....but I don't really hear twang in alot of voices I hear transitioning smoothly, so there are varying degrees obviously, but I can only seem to have it on or off....and frankly when it's on, it's not a useable or pleasant sound, it sounds like I'm doing a charectuer voice and being silly.

Further, my attempts at twanging invariably give me the feeling of tension in the tounge, I can't make that sound without getting that feeling....is this a muscle development thing that is resulting from me doing something that it doesn't get used for, or an inncorrect technique (which I suspect it is, but would like to ask).

Should everything always be relaxed? Tounge,facial muscles etc? I have been given great advice from Geno (Guitartrek) to smile slightly when I sing, to add some brightness, as I naturally have a dark toned thick sort of voice, and this works very well, apart from I can feel the muscles working, which I have always equated to tension, and tried to avoid.

I almost find these days that trying to learn/remember/use alot of this stuff has robbed me of the ability to just get on and sing as I have always done.

I have a lesson comng up locally, and hope to get some other tution sorted out soon online, but I really wish I could work on some things now, so the lessons could perhaps take me further than starting them clueless to the terms, and application of the techniques and having to spend lesson time and money on things that seem to be common knowledge to most, first.

Thanks for your patience guys,

Rick

[ronws]

Hi guys and girls,

Forgive the green-ness of my posts, I am not new to singing, but am new to discussing or analysing it, and as such, my path to improvement isn't as simple as I imagined it would be.....go figure!

Firstly, as I have no piano, using my guitar as a reference, just to be clear.....my low E string is an E2? Am I correct?

So, my high E string is E3? The octave E on this string at fret 12 is E4?

So tenor high C.....could I ask where this is please? Which C ?(4 or even 5?).

Also, alot is made of having a twang configuration when shifting up to higher registers....but I don't really hear twang in alot of voices I hear transitioning smoothly, so there are varying degrees obviously, but I can only seem to have it on or off....and frankly when it's on, it's not a useable or pleasant sound, it sounds like I'm doing a charectuer voice and being silly.

Further, my attempts at twanging invariably give me the feeling of tension in the tounge, I can't make that sound without getting that feeling....is this a muscle development thing that is resulting from me doing something that it doesn't get used for, or an inncorrect technique (which I suspect it is, but would like to ask).

Should everything always be relaxed? Tounge,facial muscles etc? I have been given great advice from Geno (Guitartrek) to smile slightly when I sing, to add some brightness, as I naturally have a dark toned thick sort of voice, and this works very well, apart from I can feel the muscles working, which I have always equated to tension, and tried to avoid.

I almost find these days that trying to learn/remember/use alot of this stuff has robbed me of the ability to just get on and sing as I have always done.

I have a lesson comng up locally, and hope to get some other tution sorted out soon online, but I really wish I could work on some things now, so the lessons could perhaps take me further than starting them clueless to the terms, and application of the techniques and having to spend lesson time and money on things that seem to be common knowledge to most, first.

Thanks for your patience guys,

Rick

When I tune my guitars, I use a metronome that has a switch to produce a 440 hz A. And that note on a guitar is 5th fret on the first string (standard right hand stringing. I am left-handed but I play guitar right-handed, which feels left-handed to me. After all, the left hand is doing quite a bit of work.) But I have yet to sit down and equate the piano notes to guitar. Though I think it could be done by finding a site that plays a middle C and you find where that is on the guitar. Someone correct me but I think tenor C is 8th fret, 1st string. Which makes middle C 1st fret, 2nd string. Someone check me on that.

As for twang, it may sound really "twangy" when you first start but as your muscles retrain, it becomes easier and more subtle, resulting in the smooth transitions you are talking about. And not every vocal melody involves a smooth slide from middle C to say D or E above tenor C. Phrasing and lyrics are varied in ranges for effect, melody, emotional intent, allowing the singer to "set up" for that different part of the range, so you don't hear the shift. Or a part that is somewhat of a passagio for a singer is broken up into two ranges, avoiding the passagio. Or, as is taught by Lunte, get into "head" voice sooner and there is no break going up.

As for trying to remember all of this and how it temporarily breaks down the groove you had before, welcome to my world. The world of second-guessing myself. Sometimes, I ruin a song by trying to do to many new things to it. Then, I am strained or pitchy. But it reminds of Bruce Lee's process in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Teach every student to blocks, two kicks, two punches. They come from every day moves. Practice them until they are, once again, every day moves. I've been working on "Immigrant Song" by Led Zeppelin. According to the waveforms shown in the track when I do it, When I do the banshee wails, they are different in waveform at the beginning than they are at the middle. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. And, I'm second-guessing because the backing track is with center panned vocals knocked down, but it doesn't get rid of all the vocal, which gets partially mixed on to other tracks during mastering. So, I am hobbled by the ghost of Robert Plant. I might be better off doing that one on my own guitar. But, I was trying to work with someone else's aesthetic. Valid though it is, it may not suit this particular project.

I have found that a slightly raised tongue, as if you were about to say 'ng' helps the resonating chamber, where as trying to keep the tongue flat depresses the larynx and pharynx (think of that area around the Adam's Apple).

Also, it's all head voice. Nothing resonates in the chest, where the heart and lungs (in my case, a thumping gizzard and an Energizer battery) are located. Nor do we resonate in the skull or brain pan. It's all from just above the Adam's Apple to the top of the sinus, behind the soft palate. So, technically, it's all lower head, in a space that has a length about the width of your hand, but must necessarily shorten or or reduce in diameter, or both, to resonate higher notes. That's simple physics of acoustics. Just like a note resonating in a wind instrument.

I think you will get where you want to go. But don't be afraid to let go and do just "head" voice. Because, in reality, you are already there, you are just learning to use it differently.

[Quincy]

I'll just add that the 1st string is E4 and 6th string is E2. Two octaves apart. Middle C(4) is 2nd string 1st fret. Each new octave begins on the Cs.

And I love your guitar playing and vocals on this song. Really cool!

[ronws]

I'll just add that the 1st string is E4 and 6th string is E2. Two octaves apart. Middle C(4) is 2nd string 1st fret. Each new octave begins on the Cs.

And I love your guitar playing and vocals on this song. Really cool!

Thanks, Quincy for clarifying. Your answer was the more accurate one.

[VideoHere]

Should everything always be relaxed? I almost find these days that trying to learn/remember/use alot of this stuff has robbed me of the ability to just get on and sing as I have always done.

welcome to the joys of singing!! lol!!!

folks, this is only directed to the singers who may not realize this...

you know it's funny, there are songs and vocal exercises i practice, where i am literally physically tired, my vocal folds feel like they melded into one, my stomach feels like it contracted into my back, my ass and neck muscles hurt, and the glass next to me i could have sworn might have vibrated.

i've said this before and i'll say it again:

i really believe a lot of singing (especially rock) and vocal exercising takes a lot more work than people understand. yes, you have to keep a relaxed and open throat and all we have learned, but there are times that the support and muscularity needed for certain notes or duration of notes is very, very, difficult!!!

i have no clue (yet) about cvt, but i'll bet there's a lot of this issue in executing those modes.

i can't get over how hard that "waiting for a girl like you" song is even when you lower the key, the particuler lyrics alone are a bitch to sing. those lousy consonants!!

another toughy i never realized is duran duran's "the reflex" ...boy oh boy.... not the high chorus notes mind you, (although they are up there) it's the lousy verses plus the energy level you need to make that song rock.

here's one more "paradox" by kansas......all you sing is a constant stream of high power notes, very little time to catch your breath, no room for error.

i get really frustrated when these vocal teachers say how "effortless" it should be...it is not effortless!!!!!!!! and it is a very muscular activity!!!!!

[ronws]

There is something to be said for learning new things. Sometimes, "the way we've always sung" is not the best way to sing or may be doing damage, or, at the least, limiting what we can do. Also, I think, it helps to understand one's goals. Let's say you wanted to sing low baritone like country singer Randy Travis. You might get something from learning to twang and proper breath support but hitting a D above tenor C would not be necessary and would kind of ruin the Randy Travis vibe, if that was a person's goal.

So, while it may take a while to break old habits and re-train, it can still provide much joy and new directions in the end. And, also, in the end, you may find yourself able to create the tone you've always wanted and even already had, just with more range. But this time, with better habits that let you keep your voice for decades.

As for effort, I think any honest appraisal would say that there is some greater effort at some patches. Just as Lunte would say that sometimes, you will raise the larynx and it's not always a bad thing. And in the movement of that larynx, we're talking about a fraction of an inch. It's not like you can wave the larynx up and down a foot. Also, there will be some muscular effort to adjust the resonating space. Again, it's simple physics. Why can't a 15 inch bass speaker produce a clear violin note the way a 3 inch tweeter can? Size of the membrane or diaphragm in the speaker and the resonating space of that speaker cabinet.

The other effort is psychological. Getting into head voice clean is not girly. Easing back on the air pressure (my problem in times past, of pushing too much air) does not weaken the note. I've recently learned to do distortion with the False Vocal Folds so that it doesn't impact the true folds. I've tried it on "You could be mine" by Guns and Roses and on "Highway to Hell" by AC/DC. I'm not recording it yet, just having fun making "funny" noises. And getting over the psychological hurdle of "well, it will sound funny and I must always look "cool"." Who gives a flying flip if it's "funny"? Experiments and even mistakes can lead to something unique. In high school, a fellow guitar freak could squeal like a pig. I tried to and came up with a growl that sounds like a bear. Which fits in with the nickname mexican friends gave me, "Oso Blanco."

Try different things and see where it leads. Even if it doesn't work out, have fun.