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You need to make room to breath. :P I know the subject matter can take your breath away but even you could not sing this all the way through without recording the verses seperately. Put a little instrumental turn around between the verses.

One of the things that make a song popular is that others can sing it also. If this is not an original, I still feel the same way about the song.

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I think it's a novel approach to songwriting. I remember a few years ago a guy brought music he had recorded and invited us to come up with lyrics and vocal melody. A few others and I took up the challenge. I left breaks in, even added a guitar solo that was not in the original. And others sang a vocal line that ran the entire length of the song, like this is.

So, it is not without precedent, here. And I think it is neat, at least, to me, in that the voice becomes another orchestrated instrument, both melodic and rhythmic.

Technically, your pitch and volume is good. Would this sell a lot of records, regardless of the artistic achievement that it is?

Possibly not. What sells most is what MDEW is talking about. Shorter verses, instrumental sections, the obligatory solo of one or more instruments. As opposed to this circular approach to singing. Doable as a recording, though maybe not as easy for a solo singer, live. I have a feeling that a live version would need to be at least a duet.

Your accent sounds a little Scottish, to me.

I am a fan of different format song-writing, too. I have been writing an original to celebrate the Scottish part of my mongrel ancestry. And it is different than what most people are used to. It is written from a musical perspective, rather than a "singer's" perspective. Where the voice carries the main repeated melody and instruments provide the variation and breaks.

So, your singing sounds okay, it just that different people may have different aesthetic opinions of how the song goes.

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I reckon that another structure would sell better. I use to be very focused on lyrics. This song is not meant to sell, it's meant to seduce.

Scotland is a bit off; I'm a Czech born in Germany. There may be similarities, but I find myself most inspired by the British accent.

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Ah, well, if we are talking about aesthetics, we could be here all day. Often, it is an open-ended question when someone says, "what do you think about my singing?". And I try to divide between technical and aesthetic considerations,

Because listening is mental. Am I inspired, seduced, entranced? No, but that could be my failing. For I, as any other person, listen through my set of psychological filters and musical preferences. And am also subject to that from others. I recently did a cover of a Beatles song and pretty much no one, even a good friend, liked my arrangement. It was not exactly like the original. On the bright side, at least no one said I was off pitch. :)

But my performance was not a moving or evocative one to others. Which doesn't mean that I, nor you, have done wrong.

The audience is what it is. If you are happy with what you have done here, so be it. Technically, you are good. Artistically, you are unique and there will be fans of your music.

Some people applaud what I do. Others have never had a good word to say about my singing, regardless of song, style, regardless of everyone else applauding me. It be's that way, sometimes.

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I agree with the breathing. But .. this is more in the line of the Spoken Word and not really singing..

I didn't hear any singing in the song, just more rounded, bouncing spoken word..

Sorta like William Shatner (but your voice is better )..

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I agree with the breathing. But .. this is more in the line of the Spoken Word and not really singing..

I didn't hear any singing in the song, just more rounded, bouncing spoken word..

Sorta like William Shatner (but your voice is better )..

Dadgummit, David, you just made me realize that my music collection is incomplete because I do not have the albums by William Shatner. I have an original ceramic phonograph of a Billie Holiday abum. I have Pat Boone's album, In a Metal Mood. I have Live and Sleazy by the Village People. Christmas Polka by Brave New Combo. Twisted Christmas by Twisted Sister. "Waiting for the electrician or someone like him" by comedy troupe Firesign Theater.

I do not have albums by Admiral Kirk. And so I am remiss ...

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I realize that most singers demand consideration for their sensitivity. While I don't claim not to care, I wrote you not to be nice for a reason. I believe that wariness has no place in criticism as it robs the artist of the chance to improve. The fact that you are subjective is nothing that should force you to humble your opinion; it is a fact that I must be strong enough to realize myself.

I do believe in objective criteria in the quality of art. I also believe in individuality. While I acknowledge that one can not please virtually anyone, I believe it a rather avoiding approach to state that it isn't the fault of the artist when he fails to move his audience. The artist must, at least, define his audience, to be able to judge his success. To refuse to do this means relief in the short and unknowing agony in the long term. How do you know when to be satisfied when you do not know what you want to achieve? I'd rather be certain of my failure than to convince myself that I don't want to succeed.

Of course, the goal can be of another kind, for example the wish to create an artwork of integrity, following some strict concept and omitting anything that doesn't pertain to that. But neither then is success relative.

I didn't ask whether you were seduced. Had I asked, I would not have wanted you to relativize your feedback. Regarding this goal, you are not my audience. My audience regarding this goal will consist of one person. And that kind of possible failure is not relative; it is an absolute.

I felt that my singing lacked some sort of conceptual integrity. I would've felt happy to have that feeling confirmed by professionals. I would've felt ardent joy to have it explained and given the chance to choose to improve or give up.

Thank you for your opinion. Feel invited to disagree with mine.


how do you define singing?

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Tomarrow wrote:

"I felt that my singing lacked some sort of conceptual integrity. I would've felt happy to have that feeling confirmed by professionals. I would've felt ardent joy to have it explained and given the chance to choose to improve or give up. "

Each of us have done that. Comments on Conseptual Integrity. How have we not? Consept as far as the song and the voice. Giving yourself time to breathe will help the integrity of your singing and your song.

David has mentioned that it sounds more on the lines of Speaking on pitch than singing. Again proper use of breath is involved.

If we have kept to the most common form of aesthetics, Pitch, basic melody(did you stick to it?) Then there is nothing more to say than the pitch was good everything else is a matter of opinion and you do not wish to hear opinions only facts. Your pitch was good.

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You are right about the pitch. That's indeed useful. But you are wrong in saying that I don't want to hear opinions. It's the first thing I wrote I do want to hear. Don't people use to confront each other with opinions here? If not, why? While pitch and technicalities are very important, you can't rationalize art down to them. An expression of art is also an expression of values and ideas. If those are not allowed to be confronted, there is no point in expressing them.

I see that I must explain what I mean by conceptual integrity. I feel that throughout the piece, there is no constant style that I can point my finger to. It fluctuates and feels a bit nervous to me, apart from the breathing problem. If speaking on pitch had been my concept, Davids comment would have reassured me. It's more the lack of concept that I see. Do you feel that the every piece of the melody is a part of the whole? Does every component and detail of the singing serve it's purpose or are many of them distractions that I oversee due to my familiarity with the song?

I was certain that this would be obvious to outsiders. Possibly it is only my own shortcoming. Yes, I want artistic opinions. Tell me that my voice isn't able to transport the lyrics if that is what you feel. Such a truth is also a fact, even when more subjective than pitch.

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I appologise for my own misunderstanding. :) I still feel that the whole concept is falling apart Because of the lack of breathing room. Each verse is repetitive in melody. It may only be an opinion but it stems from my own artistic sense of rhythm and melody.

Part of seduction(which you mentioned) is give and take, mystery, being compelled to investigate further, or in music, listen more or closer. Dynamics is the key there. Loud against soft, Sound against silence. High pitch against low pitch. Fast against slow......... It is never just the words. It is how they are expressed.

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Well, I am not an expert on singing. I am not a teacher of singing. I just like to sing, a lot of different stuff and have done so for a long time.

It's nice to read what you think it is that might need changing. As for confrontations, I used to be more confrontational and was almost banned for it. I've learned to curb my sarcasm and biting wit. (I was spoiled with my old workmate, Lee. We would rip each other to shreds all day. For example, I would do something really well and he would say, "well, even a blind hog finds an acorn, once in a while." Can you feel the love?)

You have stated now that you have an audience of a particular one in mind for this. In which case, my artistic opinions would mean nothing. For example, (and I don't really care about the specifics, only suggest some to state my point,) let us say that the intended audience is a woman you wish to court.

Well, I'm a guy. That does make a difference. Nor can I really put myself in the shoes of a woman, either literally (I wear size 13 wide) or figuratively. But do I notice what women tend to like? Sure. And many is the time a singer will post a cover or an original. And will tell them, in just about these words, keep that one in your set, as it will get you phone numbers from lovely ladies in the audience.

If I treat your song to that judgement, generally, then it would not make it. For a specific woman, it might. Depending on the woman. Would it work if courting another man? It doesn't do anything for me that way but then I am not courting other men or being courted by other men and don't seek that in my life. Though I have had a number of male friends who had boyfriends. And they didn't usually listen to this kind of music, either.

To kind of speak to what MDEW is saying, the vocal passage becomes a bit of droning thing, never stopping and never time to digest what has just been said.

As opposed to the phrasing of say, Kevin Cronin.

"Heard it from a friend who

Heard from a friend who

Heard it from another, you've been messing around."

instrumental break approximately one measure.

And it's not always a song about romantic love. I can make my wife cry with "Leader of the Band" by Dan Fogelberg, an ode to his father.

I have had women at a party cat-call to me when I launched in "Black Dog" by Led Zeppelin. Who knew it was a love song? :lol:

In which case, what are we talking about, here? Songwriting and arrangement? Or how your voice is implementing the emotion that you want to convey?

We are also at something of an impasse, though not insurmountable, of perception. You think the style seems to fluctuate. Where as I hear, in my perception, that it never fluctuates and the elevation or lowering of melody line has nothing to do with that.

Your first words are "Tell me your opinion. Don't be nice to me."

Sometimes, I can't help but be a nice guy. It's a character flaw that I cannot seem to get rid of. Other times, in the beat of a heart, I can fill with rage, anger, derision, you name it. But I have spent decades trying to control these things. My friend, Lee, of whom I spoke earlier was a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, US Navy SEAL with 3 active combat tours in Viet Nam. He nearly went to prison for attempted manslaughter when he beat a guy in a bar fight so bad the other guy went to the hospital. And he would back away when I got wound up.

Please believe me, the "nice" me is better.

Anyway, so not being an expert, how can I advise you what to do with this? Treat it like a writing assignment. Find out what it is that you are really trying to say and consolidate that. Economy of words. I think this will bring the sharpening of concept you are seeking.

Maybe I lack enough descriptive ways to elucidate what I may think it needs. Like the old saying says, "I don't know if it's art but I like it."

But if I could suggest, I would say focus. When I wrote a song about my wife, I wrote about her, not women in general. If women, in general, happen to like it, that is cool, too. And actually, it was a drastically simple melody and would get stuck in my head the way that peanut butter gets stuck to the roof of your mouth.

Not knowing what the original intent of the song or even now, what the end result of it is to be, I don't know what other advise I could offer.

You may not know me well and that's okay. When someone performs or writes a song I really think is good, my response usually includes, "record it professionally, release it, sell it."

I have not said that, yet, about your song. In this forum, we are mostly about singing technique, not so much about song construction or songwriting, though a few others, including my brother have tried to start such a venture.

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It does seem droning. I will consider working on the dynamics and structure.

"If I treat your song to that judgement, generally, then it would not make it."

Tell me why. It is for a woman. It's not meant to coax a lady, but to tease a vamp. It's not meant to provoke tears, but to challenge a grin in an aggressive way. That's not an approach that will work for the majority of the women that I know; they will rather be offended. But I'm not sure that's what you meant. Clarify.

I believe I can take your rough side as far as words go. I wouldn't know about that in a bar fight; it's not the thing that crossed my mind. I see that most people prefer harmony over conflict. They don't feel the love. But I don't expect you to get yourself banned to prove me wrong. The thing I am looking for is not even sarcasm or biting wit. Although I can accept these, my object of desire is ruthless honesty. The truth can be hard to swallow, but only a lie will make you sick. Sugar-coated truths become annoying once you realize what little good they do to you.

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Fair enough. And I am certain to tick of the one or two women that sometimes peruse this forum.

Your lyrics do have some romantic sense in them based on the words. But the presentation is so relentless and plodding that they do not have time to think or feel about what you said, or sang.

Consider this.

"Hey, hey baby when you walk that way, I watch your honey drip, I can't keep away." Followed by a monster guitar riff. It speaks volumes, as much as the twice as much verbiage as you have supplied.

I am not saying that you need to write in a raunchy vein. In fact, in the song I quoted, that was Robert Plant at an early stage of songwriting. Later, he would learn to be more subtle. "You are the sunlight in my growing. So little warmth I felt before." Intending the same thing, a romantic love but stated more eloquently, flowery, even.

But not a mile a minute vocal run. I have read several books on songwriting (which does not make me an expert, just an avid reader with a large library) and one of my favorites is by James Blume. He can barely plunk a few notes on a piano, lost on the guitar. But he carries a note book and a digital portable recorder to get snippets and him humming pieces of melody. And then meets with a friend who plays just about every instrument quite well and they flesh out what he hears in his head. And he wins awards for his songwriting and many is the hit singer who has recorded a James Blume song.

And his process may start out with a bunch of bits, consolidated or disjointed. And many is the time he has re-written several times. Or what sounded cool in his car, singing a lyrical bit just doesn't work when paired with musical accompaniment. Or, it sounded clever by itself but is overbearing as a lyrical passage in song.

But essential is that a song tells a story. Not in a surfeit of words but in choosing the right words and the pace or phrasing. Even in songs that are relatively dense in lyrics, there is space in the vocal line, not just for breathing. But to allow the imagery to set in.

"Blame it all on my roots.

I showed up in boots.

And ruined your black-tie affair.

I was the last one to know.

The last one to show.

The last one you thought you'd see there."

In far less words, you can already see the story setting up. A guy, kind of cowboy in style, has shown up at a place that happens to also be holding a get-together for his ex and her new circle of friends, including her new significant other. And there's time in the music to build the anticipation. What's he going to say, next? The listener is hooked. He needs to know what is the point, which will be delivered in the chorus.

I don't know about getting a woman to grin by presently aggressively, unless the aggression is meant to be humorous.

But possibly, by using less lyrics and spacing them out, you have more room in the presentation to present more emotion to carry what you want.

For example, in a song I wrote for my wife, the verses are soft and quiet. The chorus, I lean into it and create some volume, so to speak. So, there is dynamics in it. And the song is short. I couldn't imagine turning it into an epic opus. It said what I needed to say, no more.

Then, again, I am not an expert on women, even though I have been married twice (still married to my second wife.) And any guy who says he understands women is wrong, simply put. I just notice patterns, sometimes, in what women want, what they respond to. My wife likes hard rock from the 70's. Another lady friend of ours likes blues, along the lines of Jeff Strahan, whom we have seen a few times.

A co-worker and I were trading off the ZZ Top songs we had learned and bemusing whether it would please ladies. I told my wife about that conversation. And she said, "Well, if you really want to please a woman, how about some Dan Fogelberg?"

I might be slow, but I'm not completely stupid. :lol: It's just fortunate that I have a light voice and his songs are within my reach.


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I see your point. Less can be more. I'll have to decide whether I want this to be a song in the general sense, requiring me to improve the phrasing and rewrite some parts of the lyrics, or risk this to be a harsh poem reading that might not be understood the way that I intend it to. I will have to decide on my goal and my way.

"You are the sunlight in my growing. So little warmth I felt before."

I couldn't feel respect for a woman who would be attracted by a man who worshipped her in such a humble way. Also, while I don't consider myself to be that person, I am convinced that it is very well achievable for a man to understand women, as it is achievable to understand human psychology in general. Everything is logical. Have a look at the pick-up-community and mentalist-like artists who are able to influence and read the feelings and thoughts of people better than they are able to themselves.

As I implied before when writing about the quality of art, the exceptions don't break the rule. That said, I am obviously chasing some form of exception in this case. I might be wrong in doing so.

How to get her to grin aggressively? By challenging her. While I like femininity, I don't regard passivity highly. I enjoy the charm of a soft woman, but I feel uplifted by an unyielding one. Only a strong and self-conscious woman can enjoy a challenge. That isn't a rule exclusive to women.

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I didn't like the song.

For me, your 'singing' wasn't singing.. there was no change in pitch, no dynamics, no change in volume, no feeling,etc.

For me the song was a big soup, with no pauses, stops, interludes, segways, or flow. I can hear a cut and paste (when you stopped the recording (probably to catch your breathe) and then restarted it from where you left off.

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Thanks for the feedback so far. If I don't answer to something in particular, it only means that I don't have any questions. I enjoy any of your criticism.

David, what is a segway?

I reckon that your definition of singing requires a certain amount of phrasing and a more legato expression. Is that correct?

Bzean123 and David, can you elaborate on your definition of emotion respectively feeling? Do you mean softness or some hint of weakness to contrast the intended aggression and arrogance or does the song not even communicate those two?

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A segway or segue is a word or phrase that leads to another section or a different topic. A musical segue may be when you use a series of chord changes to land you into a different key or maybe even a different time signature or rhythm pattern.

In any language you have particular patterns or inflections that will give an idea of what emotional content is being expressed. In english if the last word is higher than the other words in the phrase or at least the last word has an upward motion in pitch it usually denotes a question is being asked. If the last word is lower or has a downward movement in pitch it is usually expressing a statement or command. Other very subtle changes in speed, volume, tone....... will express different emotions. When all notes have the same volume, tone, meter(rhythm) it comes out as dry unemotional.

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funny.. although the structure can be changed somewhat with the slight pauses here and there with more emphasis (I like when you change your pitch higher, and work through it that way -- brings out dynamics).. I'm starting to dig the tune -- the feel of the song - it's catchy...

I would repeat the chorus (The first part you go higher in tone) somewhere in the second verse, as it showcases the song i believe...

I still think you can improve on the points that were brought up before, but bravo on the song -- i see where you were / are going with it...

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Here's the update:

I decided against changing the structure; I want it more to be a short musicalized poem than an epic song. In other words: Rather a statement than a story. I don't find that the words justify telling a story and I don't want to give them a theatrical stage they don't deserve. Not out of modesty, obviously; I want the piece to have integrity.

I am still considering playing with the rhytm and dynamics. I focused on the singing this time. I made efforts to achieve a more to-the-point-rhytm, convince with a more straight-forward and identifyable melody and vary the style of expression in each of the six segments.

Dissect it.

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