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Question on the Bernoulli effect and/or compression

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Lobster510
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Hi guys,

I'm currently working on getting more head voice compression in my head voice using "quack" vocal mode workouts.

I've been working flat out and there is a noticeable difference though I still have a way to go to make it consistent.

I've heard about the Bernoulli effect from several different sources.

Recently I haven't been working on breath support as much as usual and so it's only ok. (I'm a smoker btw).

However I have a good understanding of breathing and in fact in the past there have been times when I think my support was good partially thanks to singing alot of Ray Lamontagne songs and of course doing tons of breathing exercises.

So here's my question:

Is working on fantastic support a key part of acheiving a strong compressed sound in the head voice? and should I be working on it just as much as quack/twang at this point?

Keep in mind that my support is ok at the moment, just not at its best.

Any advice to help me get the best out of my training sessions would be great.

Thanks in advance :)

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Is working on fantastic support a key part of acheiving a strong compressed sound in the head voice?

from my non-expert opinion i think yes because higher notes require more effort, but you don't want to add the extra effort in a way that constricts your throat or tense up your support muscles so much that it locks up and doesn't keep moving in. so correct support will make higher notes easier, but it takes more than just correct support to get strong high notes, its about the exercises that strengthen the head voice.

but who knows you may already have proper support...

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it never hurts to work on your breathing and support.

support helps in all areas, not just high notes. work to develop a well coordinated, balanced voice as well.

i don't see you needing that much support to sing ray lamontagne. he's more about balance.

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As long as you have support down on a very basic level you will do fine with compression/connecting in the head voice.

Bridging registers smoothly is what really requires support. And the later you bridge the stronger your understanding and application of support needs to be.

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Sorry I'm not sure how to embed.

I can't find the old performance that I was looking for. I worked alot around "I've been saved" (chorus)

but I opened the glottis more than he does here at the beginning of the slide and closed it at the end kind of like a wind and release onset in chest voice but sliding it. I found that after a couple of weeks I had much better lung capacity and ability to balance air flow v compression.

Thanks alot for your answers, I think I just have to be patient with the twang exercises and make sure i'm doing everthing right.

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These are all really good answers Lobster... One way to view this is... which is a perspective I try to share in "The Four Pillars of Singing"... you have two systems that can be used to engage vocal fold compression;

1). The Twanger (More Intuitive).

2). Respiration, through the physics of Bernoulli Principles. (Less Intuitive).

If you are working on reparatory glottal bleed on high frequencies, you will ... as I have coached you... favor the glottis and open to an imagined 10-15% to release constriction and too much quack mode... if you "bleed" the glottis like this, you have to back fill... or supplement the opening in the glottis with more respiration. To increase the Bernoulli vaccumm pressure in the glottis... when balanced just right... the vocal folds will adduct, or give you the sound of "connectivity" in the head voice, without the inefficiencies that come from ONLY torquing the twanger on high notes.

Practice Wind & Release Onsets from approximately F#4 - C5 and work on calibrating the balance between compression vs sub-glottal respiration pressure. Messa di Voce Onsets are also designed to build the coordination for this compression/respiration pressure. If you have a hard time opening the glottis, I have found that "Uh" (English sound sample), seems to be a good vowel for relaxing the glottis... warm "curbing" vowels... not bright "edging" vowels.. but in time your edging vowels will find the balance as well.

Hope this helps bud... look forward to seeing you on your next sesh. Great job on working with the Onsets... your using the tools and techniques that are available to you to get real, timely results... good man.

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What's the difference between "support" and "respiration?"

"support" is often used to mean respiration in the talk-track of singing technique... HOWEVER, a phonation is supported by two primary systems. You can support a phonation with respiration and you can support a phonation with musculature. So support means... "Support"... not respiration. This is important to delineate if you are going to teach students how to balance sub-glottal respiration pressure with glottal compression. If you are teaching that, "support" can't just mean "respiration"... and it really shouldn't.

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there are many types of respiration. but in this case, respiration is simply breathing.

breathing involves inhalation and exhalation. support applies to exhalation. one big component of support (here we go again..lol) is control of exhalation.

don't over analize it.

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respiration = adding a pillow of air. sometimes when people compress they constrict the sound. adding a little air in order to release the squeeze will help to get rid of the constriction.

Phil... when people compress, they compress the vocal folds. If you compress too much, THEN constriction can being. Adding air will not release the constriction, unless you have to train the musculature of the AES to do that. Adding air increases the vacuum in the glottis (Bernoulli), which then creates what I call, "Passive Fold Closure"... which is more efficient and less fatiguing.

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"support" is often used to mean respiration in the talk-track of singing technique... HOWEVER, a phonation is supported by two primary systems. You can support a phonation with respiration and you can support a phonation with musculature. So support means... "Support"... not respiration. This is important to delineate if you are going to teach students how to balance sub-glottal respiration pressure with glottal compression. If you are teaching that, "support" can't just mean "respiration"... and it really shouldn't.

So in short: Respiration is a part of support. Correct?

EDIT: Nm VIDEOHERE already answered it.

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Phil... when people compress, they compress the vocal folds. If you compress too much, THEN constriction can being. Adding air will not release the constriction, unless you have to train the musculature of the AES to do that. Adding air increases the vacuum in the glottis (Bernoulli), which then creates what I call, "Passive Fold Closure"... which is more efficient and less fatiguing.

Rob, to clear up since I know both of your terminologies - Phil means adding air FLOW or "respiratory bleed" - letting a little more air pass through the glottis uncompressed. Which does involve loosening the intrinsic musculature squeeze a bit, that is the point.

Also regarding when he says sometimes people when people compress they constrict, it is because of over-compressing of course. The 20% respiratory bleed or pillow of air is the fix. At least temporarily - eventually that pillow of air becomes a natural compression that probably falls somewhere between VM and bernoulli, and ultimately uses all the adductor muscles equally.

The way I perceive it lately, any efficient phonation is actually balanced fairly evenly between bernoulli and VM...you don't want to overblow and have the body naturally constrict in response because the resulting phonation will be this wild primitive uncontrolled shout (even if in the head voice) and lead to fatigue of the folds. Just as you don't want to undersupply air and squeeze the cords to death in a futile effort to make a loud sound without the air to feul it - that will just make you constrict like hell too and lead to fatigue of the musculature. So I think the efficient phonations are somewhere in between. So I personally feel thinking in terms of the spectrum of high subglottal pressure to low subglottal pressure (support) and the spectrum of strongly adducted folds vs. loosely adducted folds (compression) makes it all make more sense but that's just the way I look at it. I don't know the exact science. I may have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is you always want to keep things in balance, vocal training is all about finding that balance, not declaring Bernoulli effect is superior in all cases or the opposite, "hold back the air like you're holding your breath" as you hear from Tamplin a lot...it just depends.

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If you adduct them too strongly for your current strength and coordination they always will though. It's great for training musculature - its okay to sometimes squeeze as much as you can without feeling immediate pain as long as you rest thoroughly the second you get fatigued. but you don't want to perform with constriction. If you're a beginner and you need to perform you don't want to compress too much because you won't be ready to handle it and youll do damage or crack or something. Later on when youre more strong and coordinated of course you can compress strongly or even add a lot sub glottal pressure too - what would normally be vocal murder combining those two, if done in balance with great resonance etc is healthy. I think that's a lot like how CVT teaches overdrive and edge

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i see....i think sometimes people get too hung up with the fear of constricting, and in some cases they may not be. a beginner cannot always differentiate between bad tension versus good tension. so they hear things like "you need to sing without tension" and "singing should be effortless or like speaking" and they end up underdoing things.

there are going to be times where you really have to lean into the voice and instigate it, and stress it, and it can feel mentally very disconcerting if you have no one to say "that's okay...sometimes we are going to go to this state"....

that's why i'm so big on using the falsetto approach...the falsetto approach strengthens the voice so it can get set up and ready to take on more demanding tasks like bringing in the chest voice or the full voice.

falsetto production has a set up associated with freedom and flexibility and teaches you to explore resonance. and if you get the falsetto part of the voice really strong and resonant can you imagine how it will sound when you start to mix it?

the support part acts like a safety valve when it comes time to really instigate and stress. the support is what enables you to lean in on the voice.

again, just from my own experience.

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Good discussions... Bob... one thing that can counter balance vocal fold compression that is very much engaged... but keep it from not sounding like a choking duck is the larynx. If the larynx is also dampened, to get warmer overtones in the sound color, then that can reduce the quackyness.

Owen, thanks for clarification on Phil's talk-track...

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The way I perceive it lately, any efficient phonation is actually balanced fairly evenly between bernoulli and VM...you don't want to overblow and have the body naturally constrict in response because the resulting phonation will be this wild primitive uncontrolled shout (even if in the head voice) and lead to fatigue of the folds. Just as you don't want to undersupply air and squeeze the cords to death in a futile effort to make a loud sound without the air to feul it - that will just make you constrict like hell too and lead to fatigue of the musculature. So I think the efficient phonations are somewhere in between. So I personally feel thinking in terms of the spectrum of high subglottal pressure to low subglottal pressure (support) and the spectrum of strongly adducted folds vs. loosely adducted folds (compression) makes it all make more sense but that's just the way I look at it. I don't know the exact science. I may have no idea what I'm talking about. All I know is you always want to keep things in balance, vocal training is all about finding that balance, not declaring Bernoulli effect is superior in all cases or the opposite, "hold back the air like you're holding your breath" as you hear from Tamplin a lot...it just depends.

And that is what I aim for, balance. I just called it something different. Motion, when necessary, in the abs.

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