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What is twang???

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Martin H

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2 hours ago, benny82 said:

In singing the assocation of "twang" with "whining" or the lowering of the soft palate can be problematic, especially if you want to go for "meaty" sounds, where you need lots of twang, but should close the soft palate and prevent too much whine in the voice.

I think you folks forget that this rather simple idea in theory is totally messed up to achieve in practice.

Of course the goal is to achieve control, I would say the goal should not even need to think about it actually. BUT, as a descriptor of the coordination, "twang" does a very good job because even the samples you folks are providing as being "problems", the "sexy girly voice", or the "whining", have a good degree of it. So its a good starting place.

You won't find speech references for independent control, speech was not constructed around physiology... Even the "brass" can fail since you can have AP narrowing and reduce compression.

You could monitor the mechanical function by placing your fingers on the thyro-hyoid space and closing/opening it. But even that works much better together with a sound intention (quack for example). And its also one of these things that you can do that looks very neat and logical, but its much easier to approach it the other way around instead of trying to build singing coordinations from the ground up.

 

Remember, antagonic tensions are much worse than not having a control fully refined. If you start from the go trying to avoid nasalance when producing AP narrowing its very likely to produce tongue tension in this process. A term that leads to a somewhat correct direction most of the time, is a good one!

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4 hours ago, MDEW said:

   The word Twang has the Action of Twang in it. The word is perfect as is.

The word twang sure twangs. A perfect example of an onomatopoetic word. A word that perfectly sounds like what it describes.

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4 minutes ago, MDEW said:

We could just use the word AES and pronounce it with the twanged AE. BUTT, I guess that would not work either.

The word twang is a perfect word to describe twang, but a step back from 'brass'. AES would be a step forward.


The nasal Twang sound can be produced by other means than narrowing the lower throat, and narrowing the lower throat can be done without producing a nasal twang sound.  Hence associating a twangy sound, with a technique and naming that technique 'twang' is like giving the name 'loud' to a technique just because somebody somewhere produced a loud sound using that technique. 

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2 minutes ago, trauha said:

We all learn, and have learned, new words from time to time. Even if you assume your audience is dumb, that should not detract from the good cause of trying to help them with bringing clarity to issues.

Still paging CVT people for an answer on the previous question of 'necessary twang' as an 'overall principle': Is the overall principle one of sound or shaping of lower throat?

From a non scientific Hillbilly point of view, The necessary twang would involve BOTH the lower throat shaping and the closure of twang. The sound reference is a way to isolate the action. It is NOT needed to SOUND Twangy. The idea is to get the proper closure and resonance for a solid tone.

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Precisely! Hillbillies rule!!

(Just to be clear. I am not in disagreement with any of the fine explanations given here to the imperfections of this world, nor in personal ignorance of how to get a nasal sound, or how to narrow the epiglottal funnel, nor what is needed to have an epiglottal narrowing, and yet control the resonant areas - including AND ruling out the nasal cavities.

I was only curious why use a word that causes confusion, when both the technique and the sound can be described without complication. If the reasoning is merely that because epiglottal narrowing SOMETIMES causes a twangy sound, it is like arguing that because sometimes sheep are black, then all things black can be called sheep).

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There is nothing wrong with the terms, There is nothing wrong with the science, there is nothing wrong with the techniques.

Part of the problem is that new singers do not want to learn what the terms are and what they mean. GOOD teachers will still try to use terms that are common to describe things to these kinds of people.

Why would someone NOT find out what the terms mean when starting a new undertaking? If you wanted to go into golf you would have to learn that a Birdie is not some feathered foul and not something you hit with a Bad-mitten Racket. You would have to learn that a Bogey does not mean Humphry Bogart or a UFO.

     Speaking of Foul, (or is that Fowl?) That also means different things in different activities.

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14 hours ago, trauha said:

Still paging CVT people for an answer on the previous question of 'necessary twang' as an 'overall principle': Is the overall principle one of sound or shaping of lower throat?

CVT description of twang can be found here: http://cvtresearch.com/description-of-twang/

I'm not authorized in the technique in any way, but as far as I know, they use the term to mean the narrowing of epiglottic funnel, and it is not related to nasality in any way. The necessary narrowing is called necessary twang and significant narrowing is called distinct twang. The nasal port can be open or closed in both cases. I believe the term is used in similar manner also in Estill Voice Training.

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1 minute ago, trauha said:

Thanks phale for the link. Any Estill people here who could say if the term means exactly the same to them? Or is this a CVT forum?

This is not a CVT forum, this is a Vocalist WORLD forum. Provided by Robert Lunte founder of TVS. We do not stick to just one method when speaking of singing. TVS and CVT have many things in common but they are NOT the same.

 

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11 minutes ago, trauha said:

Thanks phale for the link. Any Estill people here who could say if the term means exactly the same to them? Or is this a CVT forum?

From the Wikipedia article I linked in my previous post you can find the following description for the Estill twang vocal quality:

"The key to twang quality is a narrowing of the epilarynx via a narrowing or constriction of the aryepiglottic sphincter. Twang quality has been used by speakers and singer to boost vocal resonance or 'squillo' and is referred to as the speaker's ring or singer's formant. The quality is excellent when teaching safe shouting and at cutting through background noise, increasing clarity of the voice, and is taught to both singers and actors to enable them to be heard clearly in large auditoria without vocal strain. Twang quality may be nasalized or oral, as differentiated by an open or closed velopharyngeal port. Estill suggests setting the vocal tract initially by imitating a cat yowling, ducks quacking, and other exercises."

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Another thing that people totally forget is that these different methods are geared towards different things. Not that they do not lead to the same outcome of singing or are not useful for different types of singing. CVT is geared towards the sounds you may be looking for. NOT the training it takes to get to the level you want or may need depending on your style of singing.

TVS is geared towards the TRAINING. What it takes to get you to the level of singing you want to go.

Estill is geared more towards conveying the emotions you need to put into your singing and express them in a Theater type of environment.

 Twang in TVS is to help you with cord closure and shaping the formant. Twang in CVT is used as a help to get you into the coordinations of a Style or Sound Color that you are going for.

  Twang in Estill is geared to a singing CHARACTER in the voice.

 All of these are incorporated in whatever singing STYLE you desire to use it for. It is a tool to help you get into the coordination needed.

 For all of them EXERCISING twang gives you the tools to use as much or as little as needed.

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MDEW! Your comparison of the different branded methodologies is extremely useful! This clarifies SOOO much! Thanks for this. A very rare and valuable insight! I wonder if all students of these various schools of thought realize the differing accentuations, or expect more than is actually delivered. What it says on the tin does not always lay it out so clearly.

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    It is not the fault of the branded methods. No matter which method the first thing you need to do is tune your voice and be able to access the notes. I do not know a lot about Estill except that it is taught mostly in theater, but the rest of the programs teach you and train you to access the notes. You the singer have to decide how you are going to use the information and training and apply it to your singing.

      Most people want quick tips. "How do I access notes above g4 in full voice?" Quick tip "Twang on a siren from below G4 to above G4" 2nd question or statement from the person asking for quick tips......"I can now do that with sirens but it sounds thin and I flip into a lighter sound. How to make it more powerful?" Quick tip "keep doing that for awhile". Next Question "My headvoice is stronger but when I sing Bruno Mars it sounds like a dying cat. How do I fix that?"

      Quick tips do not help. They will get you to the note but will not give you the control to SING. Real training will give you the control. It is up to you to do the controlling.

      I think that is a part of why a student fails with different "Teachers" Coaches" or "Programs" they do not understand that PART of what they are doing is to learn how to control different aspects of the voice to create the effects or emotions in good singing.

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On 7.9.2016 at 5:56 PM, MDEW said:

      I think that is a part of why a student fails with different "Teachers" Coaches" or "Programs" they do not understand that PART of what they are doing is to learn how to control different aspects of the voice to create the effects or emotions in good singing.

Your post is excellent in its entirety, though I only quote the end. It may be impossible for them to do it, but I hope that more "Teachers" Coaches" or "Programs" will help students understand that part you refer to, so that failure rates go down.

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On September 7, 2016 at 11:56 AM, MDEW said:

    It is not the fault of the branded methods. No matter which method the first thing you need to do is tune your voice and be able to access the notes. I do not know a lot about Estill except that it is taught mostly in theater, but the rest of the programs teach you and train you to access the notes. You the singer have to decide how you are going to use the information and training and apply it to your singing.

      Most people want quick tips. "How do I access notes above g4 in full voice?" Quick tip "Twang on a siren from below G4 to above G4" 2nd question or statement from the person asking for quick tips......"I can now do that with sirens but it sounds thin and I flip into a lighter sound. How to make it more powerful?" Quick tip "keep doing that for awhile". Next Question "My headvoice is stronger but when I sing Bruno Mars it sounds like a dying cat. How do I fix that?"

      Quick tips do not help. They will get you to the note but will not give you the control to SING. Real training will give you the control. It is up to you to do the controlling.

      I think that is a part of why a student fails with different "Teachers" Coaches" or "Programs" they do not understand that PART of what they are doing is to learn how to control different aspects of the voice to create the effects or emotions in good singing.

Excellent post MDEW!

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   Singing has subtle movements. Slight changes to the Larynx position, up,down, tilted forward, tilted back, makes a difference to the sound. The vocal folds themselves take on a different angle to the airflow and relation to the TUBE of the vocal tract. This angle has an effect on how the air vibrates the vocal folds. Not only this but the tensions that hold the larynx in these positions have an effect on the SHAPE of the vocal folds. Some positions will make it easier for closure to happen and some will make it harder. A few other things happen also. NO paper or study or experiments are going to fully confirm this the movement are too small and you do not even need to worry about this except for the next thing I am going to tell you.

    You do not have direct control over any of this by trying to manipulate the larynx or vocal folds. These things happen through EMOTIONAL EXPRESSIONS. Laughing, Crying, Shouting, Yelling, Sobbing , Pleading, Whining, Taunting, Smiling, Frowning. Basically by Happy, Sad, Angry, Joyful, ecstatic sounds.

    When you are doing your sirens, lipbubbles, scales, basically training, you do not think about these things. You might be thinking I need more cord closure or I do not have enough twang to reach the note, But you do not NORMALLY train while using these other emotions unless something happened BEFORE the workout to get you into those states.

         Listen to the PLEADING in this. The Pleading sets up the whole sound and guides the Vowel modification. Because when you are Pleading the Vowels will take on the modification you get in trouble when you try to pronounce the words right.

     This one has Some Sadness and a shouty quality.   Listen to the emotion BEHIND the lyrics. The Pleading is still there but also the more Open throat of a yelling quality.   Sometimes you can have many different emotions in the same song but the are used to change the dynamics in the voice and in the song...............You have to think about this stuff sometimes.

 

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I agree that you don't really think about those things when singing. I would add that you can get close to individual control over the different shapes and musculature, but that control still rarely comes into play when singing. When training, it does. I even train my students to feel the sensation of each muscle grouping, and learn to control them, but also not to think about it when performing. When figuring out how you want parts of a song to sound, it does come into play, but a little less so. When performing a song, I focus on the emotions I'm trying to convey, and if I can feel them myself. Muscle control rarely comes up when I'm performing, and when it does, it's usually only when I realize something doesn't feel right (strain, clinching, too much compression, too much twang, too tinny, etc). For instance, sometimes I still start straining on high notes. I'm not thinking about technique and control 99% of the time, but when I start struggling to hold a high note, I realize I need to relax the neck, change acoustic modes, modify the vowel with my tongue position, pull down on my diaphragm, maybe lift the soft palate a bit more, dampen the larynx a tiny bit, adjust my embouchure position, open my glottis a tiny bit, relax the lift of the glottal area, and balance all of those things until that note becomes easier to sing again. Then I don't think about it until a problem comes up again. The risk of always trying to control your technique when performing, is that you tend to overthink the technique, which often makes you lose the emotion of the song and many times even overdo the technique.

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I am saying more like the emotion guides the technique. Not necessarily the emotion of the song, but the Emotion associated with the technique.

    Pleading dampens and tilts the larynx in a certain direction. Certain muscles that come into play when pleading tends to put the tongue and vocal tract into a position where it is difficult to pronounce certain vowels therefore when keeping  the Pleading quality the vowel will modify the larynx will dampen and tilt the thyroid catalidge(CT engagement)  and the vocal folds will thin out. All of this happens just by using a pleading quality.

   Taunting, Nyae, Nyae, Nyae........ I"m better than you are, Nyae, nyae" ...... In your face, Attitude......... The larynx still drops the tilting is still there, but the sound is more open, The twanger engages, More TA activity.......... More suited for "Rock" . You cannot make a whimpy oh when you are using a taunting attitude. The support pressure increases with this also and the volume comes up a little. You do not taunt, insult or basically show a superior attitude if you are not confident or showing confidence.

   These are just guides but it kind of puts the whole vocal tract into position for certain styles of singing.

    

 

   

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Let me take that one step further......... If you are always practicing with an in your face TWANG you will never be able to sing Bruno Mars. If you are training without any of these "Emotional" elements and singing the notes Clean, you will get stuck trying to sing Bruno Mars Clean and Bon Jovi without attitude and you will wonder why you still suck after all the training.

   Train the Attitude, Train the Crying, Train the Pleading..................................

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On 9/6/2016 at 4:53 PM, MDEW said:

There is nothing wrong with the terms, There is nothing wrong with the science, there is nothing wrong with the techniques.

Part of the problem is that new singers do not want to learn what the terms are and what they mean. GOOD teachers will still try to use terms that are common to describe things to these kinds of people.

Why would someone NOT find out what the terms mean when starting a new undertaking? If you wanted to go into golf you would have to learn that a Birdie is not some feathered foul and not something you hit with a Bad-mitten Racket. You would have to learn that a Bogey does not mean Humphry Bogart or a UFO.

 

I have to slightly disagree

There are defined meanings for birdie and bogey. What if every golf coach had his own definition?

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   There are definitions. Within the methods or programs their Definitions are given.

    We are trying to unify terms from various schools, styles and timelines. It was thought that once the Terms and definitions of M0, M1, M2 to designate the actual type and rate of vibration of the folds and Formant tuning things would be different. CVT with its modes and acoustical needs and rules also sought to end the confusion.

    Yes TVS has its own terminology so does CVT, SLS, Estill, and various schools of Classical singing. We end up trying to insist on the absolute end all definitions of an element without taking into consideration that it is ONLY a general guide and do not consider the context(Vocal Method/school in this instance).

      Belting in musical theater is going to be defined in one way, In Classical another, In Rock another. It is a fact. But your coach or teacher is going to tell you how he uses the term or tell you why he does not use it. You can fight with him about technicalities of a term or you can learn to use his terminology with him.

     If I say "Dio is a BAD singer" you could just get angry or you could realize that I was brought up in 70s and when I  said "DIO was BAD singer" I meant that DIO was a BADASS MOFO with one hell of a voice. Whether you just want to fight or find out what I meant is up to you.

     Most of these back and forth things are about someone wanting to fight and someone wanting to get his understanding across. OR pure mistakes from the beginning and everyone still trying to get back to square one.

    

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33 minutes ago, MDEW said:

   There are definitions. Within the methods or programs their Definitions are given.

    We are trying to unify terms from various schools, styles and timelines. It was thought that once the Terms and definitions of M0, M1, M2 to designate the actual type and rate of vibration of the folds and Formant tuning things would be different. CVT with its modes and acoustical needs and rules also sought to end the confusion.

    Yes TVS has its own terminology so does CVT, SLS, Estill, and various schools of Classical singing. We end up trying to insist on the absolute end all definitions of an element without taking into consideration that it is ONLY a general guide and do not consider the context(Vocal Method/school in this instance).

      Belting in musical theater is going to be defined in one way, In Classical another, In Rock another. It is a fact. But your coach or teacher is going to tell you how he uses the term or tell you why he does not use it. You can fight with him about technicalities of a term or you can learn to use his terminology with him.

     If I say "Dio is a BAD singer" you could just get angry or you could realize that I was brought up in 70s and when I  said "DIO was BAD singer" I meant that DIO was a BADASS MOFO with one hell of a voice. Whether you just want to fight or find out what I meant is up to you.

     Most of these back and forth things are about someone wanting to fight and someone wanting to get his understanding across. OR pure mistakes from the beginning and everyone still trying to get back to square one.

    

 

the problem is, even if you subscribe to a certain specific teacher, you still dont live in a bubble. Your singing buddies and forum mates etc are exposed to other definitions. Then you try to have a simple conversation and all hell breaks loose.

 

The confusion over the word "belt" is pretty crazy. Id say right now I could give approx 7 different meanings that I have heard. I heard a new one last night from a pro female singer on youtube. Falsetto and mixed voice arent far behind either

So it gets hard to have a decent conversation. The answers have no hope of being very useful because each person sees the actual QUESTION in a different light. Yet everyone will say "belting is one of the most important singing aspects"

Speaking of youtube, IMO anyone who doesnt peruse a great free resource like youtube simply isnt a true student of the game (whatever game that may be). I do chuckle when people say "dont try to learn from youtube vids and tips" because invariably that person has, you guessed it, YOUTUBE VIDS AND TIPS! lol

So I definitely see myself as a student of singing at this point. Whatever I get into, I go for the immersion method. So I do get exposed to the various definitions and I have to make up my own mind how to handle them. But there is nothing remotely approaching a consensus on terminology

That is why I strongly balk when someone says something like "singing is totally solved" or "the definitions are in place"....or the peach of them all, "the CORRECT way to sing" (this is correct, that is correct, blah blah). Its sort of like a boxer saying "I am the undisputed HW champ of the world!!"....but he forgets there are 3 other major boxing organizations each with their OWN "undisputed champ"

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3 hours ago, MDEW said:

Train the Attitude, Train the Crying, Train the Pleading

Awesome M,

If I may expand on this....train to bleed, train to sense, train to feel, train to shock, train to entrance, train to capture and hold, train to persuade, train for endurance, train for dynamics, train for jumps, train for resilience, but above all, for God sakes TRAIN!!

LOL

 

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1 hour ago, JonJon said:

 

the problem is, even if you subscribe to a certain specific teacher, you still dont live in a bubble. Your singing buddies and forum mates etc are exposed to other definitions. Then you try to have a simple conversation and all hell breaks loose.

 

The confusion over the word "belt" is pretty crazy. Id say right now I could give approx 7 different meanings that I have heard. I heard a new one last night from a pro female singer on youtube. Falsetto and mixed voice arent far behind either

So it gets hard to have a decent conversation. The answers have no hope of being very useful because each person sees the actual QUESTION in a different light. Yet everyone will say "belting is one of the most important singing aspects"

Speaking of youtube, IMO anyone who doesnt peruse a great free resource like youtube simply isnt a true student of the game (whatever game that may be). I do chuckle when people say "dont try to learn from youtube vids and tips" because invariably that person has, you guessed it, YOUTUBE VIDS AND TIPS! lol

So I definitely see myself as a student of singing at this point. Whatever I get into, I go for the immersion method. So I do get exposed to the various definitions and I have to make up my own mind how to handle them. But there is nothing remotely approaching a consensus on terminology

That is why I strongly balk when someone says something like "singing is totally solved" or "the definitions are in place"....or the peach of them all, "the CORRECT way to sing" (this is correct, that is correct, blah blah). Its sort of like a boxer saying "I am the undisputed HW champ of the world!!"....but he forgets there are 3 other major boxing organizations each with their OWN "undisputed champ"

  There is NOT one undisputed WAY to sing......Each song is sung its own WAY. 

 There are basic fundamentals. to be Trained and understood. 

The science, just like the different Schools of SINGING focuses  on one aspect or another of voice production. Physical Mechanics, Acoustical Mechanics or Acoustic Resonance............. You can be told that Belting is defined by a sound that has the Singers Formant AND the Speakers Formant. Which means there is MORE energy in a certain area of the Frequency Spectrum. SO What? It means that it is Loud and has the Sound of Speech or Chest voice(to some). That does not tell you HOW the sound is being made. Some will tell you that Belting is M1 taken Above the 2nd Passaggio for men(E4 and above) Very specific IT HAS TO BE M1(M1 is a specific wave pattern)......... Others tell you that it is THE SOUND of Chestvoice above E4 without needing the  amplification of a certain range of frequencies. 

   Even though all of these can be expressing a similar SOUND it does not tell you HOW it is being produced. Because it CAN be produced with different mechanical coordinations(How much larynx tilting, how much CT(cord stretching. How much TA( cord Mass) How much Support.  People try to NAIL DOWN  specifics. There are no SPECIFICS. It is GENERAL direction to go in. The subtle coordinations are what you train to gain control over.

    Edge vowels, Curbing Vowels, Light Mass, Heavy Mass, High larynx, Low Larynx...........all of these are directions TOWARD a configuration........Not the definition. You go for Quick tips on the internet you are going to get the QUICK tip that will guide you to the  BASIC coordination Maybe.............

    How do you sing ROCK?.........Twang..........How do you sing RnB?....... Cry/plead................... How do you sing Classical?...........Sob/Cover.................

   Does this help you SING any of them NO. It may get you started in a direction to train

  

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