Which Program is best for belting pop like Ariana or mariah carey?

[MusicalAsian]

Hi everyone I really admire ariana grande and mariah carey's voices. They both can sing super high notes with power. I do currently have KTVA but I kind of find it confusing to grasp at the moment but I am going to try my best with it to see what happens. Would KTVA help me develop a voice that is strong and could belt pop songs and have a pop sound voice ?

Or would singing success and mastering mix help me build a strong voice to belt pop songs?

[David]

Hi Musical.... Yes KTVA apparently will.. I do not own any vocal programs, but from the reviews and comments from sites and even this forum, it will ..

4 Pillars will do the same as well -- it all depends on how much you practice and how dedicated you are to the training... It's not a get rich quick scheme, so don't expect your desired results the next day ..

This subject has come up numerous times prior... do a search on this site , i'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.

[Jens]

Get a coach, specialy if your into beltingstyle by divas... It's hard stuff :)

[VideoHere]

musical,

you are the one that will make it happen with your dedication, intestinal fortitude, and consistent practice.

all of these programs and teachers will do the trick.

[MusicalAsian]

@khassera , how much progress did u make with MM? Did mastering mix make your voice powerful? I am gonna stick with KTVA for 2 months and see if i make progress. If not then i wanna switch over to SS and then MM.

Thank you all !

[ronws]

@khassera , how much progress did u make with MM? Did mastering mix make your voice powerful? I am gonna stick with KTVA for 2 months and see if i make progress. If not then i wanna switch over to SS and then MM.

Thank you all !

Good for you. I just wondered, how do you define powerful? Is it a certain timbre, such as a degree of distortion? Or is it a matter of apparent volume? I just wondered because we might all have different ideas of what is powerful.

[Khassera]

I just wondered, how do you define powerful? Is it a certain timbre, such as a degree of distortion? Or is it a matter of apparent volume? I just wondered because we might all have different ideas of what is powerful.

I've wondered the same thing. Is a powerful voice a chesty, overdriven one? A resonant one with a bright tone such as Adam Lambert? Powerful, in my opinion, are singers like Adam Lambert, Freddie Mercury, Daniel Heiman, Eddie Vedder (for a baritone) and Spencer Sotelo (to name an oddball). Singers that might be classified as powerful but to me sound a bit muddy would be Bruce Dickinson, Criss Oliva, Joe Cocker.

.. So what's powerful? I find that even a crazy-resonant tone, or a huge, loud voice is nothing without finesse and control, and SS/MM has a bit more exercises to help control the voice than Volume 1 of KTVA. I'd have to buy vol 2 and 3 to be certain, but here's something I should've understood way back when I first got MM:

You have to listen to the demonstrations, and you have to get your voice to sound exactly like the demonstrations. If you're not sounding like the demonstrations, you're not doing the exercises correctly, and you're not progressing like you're supposed to.

"How much progress did you make with MM?"

Uhh... This much. (-------------------------------), maybe. Or maybe (-----------------------------------) about that much.

[MusicalAsian]

@khassera @ronws I see people who can belt and maintain a chesty sound in high notes but also have amazing control of their voices and switch to chest, mix, head easily as someone who has a powerful voice.

I definitely think people like Adam Lambert, Ariana Grandd, Mariah Carey have powerful voices and have full control of their voices that they can be considered extremely experienced vocalists.

@khassera are you saying MM didn't help you that much? I heard MM is supposed to build on SS

[Khassera]

@khassera are you saying MM didn't help you that much? I heard MM is supposed to build on SS

Right now I'm saying I should've stuck with MM from the beginning and just taken a skype with a coach to check if I'm doing the exercises right. I feel MM has given me everything I can currently do with my voice, and having done vol 1 of KTVA I realize that the exercises are not only pretty much the same, they're not as well explained, demonstrated or cued.

So to me MM is the bomb. That's how matters stand right now. I might opt for another program at some point after I feel I'm not making any progress with the MM routines, but ehhhh.. That might be a long while, seeing as I'm unlocking new stuff with my voice every day.

[MusicalAsian]

@Khassera , did you do SS before MM? Did you have trouble understanding how to do KTVA? Cause I don't completely understand KTVA and I hope I am doing it right. MM is based on Speech level singing(SLS) and KTVA is based on Bel Canto. Ken says SLS can not give ppl a strong voice but other ppl who use SS and MM disagree.

How did u find out u were doing the MM exercises wrong?

Im a 17 year old guy and puberty 2 years back left me with a wretched voice filled with breaks and limited vocal range. I really want to overcome that and find my mixed voice

[Guest]

At your age and level I would recommend a male teacher than can sing exactly what you want to sing. There are a handful on this forum

Take my advice for the TYPE of stuff you want to sing finding a solid coach is 10x more important than a program because most of these programs have no WORKFLOW and even then are not specific enough to be tailed to your voice.

Is Singing Success tailored towards guys who just came out or are going through puberty? Probably not. If you're looking for solid all around training many of us would recommend TVS the newest version.

Ultimately it's your choice because not everyone has the time or money for vocal lessons but for what you want to accomplish there are male teachers here that CAN sing those songs even the whistle voice parts!!!

Good luck, I understand where you're coming from. Save yourself the months/years of experimenting and find a teacher who CAN sing and communicate their feelings clearly. Ask yourself how many singers that have JUST the program can belt past C5 and if you know a lot of them - ask them what programs they use. Search the forums and teacher's videos for a solid living resource of information.

[Khassera]

@Khassera , did you do SS before MM?

Yes.

Did you have trouble understanding how to do KTVA?

Yes. But it was ingrained in my routines, I didn't know how to listen to myself. I kept doubting that I'm doing the exercise right, and when I did, I did it wrong and made the sound too dark instead of the bright, annoying timbre you're supposed to go for. I thought it didn't sound right so I intuitively avoided it, totally undermining the whole point of volume 1, and probably the whole system. Having said that, though, I went back to SS/MM and found out it's a far, far more complete and comprehensive program (than volume 1 of ktva) with stuff to pinpoint your problem areas and smooth them out. This is how I see it, purely my opinion.

Cause I don't completely understand KTVA and I hope I am doing it right.

I hope so too.

... Ultimately no program is giving you anything mystical or new. It's the same vocal mechanism, there are different ways of learning how to use it, but at the end the physical actions and "motions" are the same no matter what the teacher is telling you, or how bad he's bashing his peers. If the author of the program treats his peers like crap, I'm inclined to turn away from his product by default.

MM is based on Speech level singing(SLS) and KTVA is based on Bel Canto. Ken says SLS can not give ppl a strong voice but other ppl who use SS and MM disagree.

If it's fun to sit in the crossfire then by all means. Have at it. I don't have the patience, time or the energy to care much for praise or stick for any program or coach. If it works, it works. Doesn't matter who the teacher is, doesn't matter where it's originally from. If it speaks to you in a language you understand it's what you need.

How did u find out u were doing the MM exercises wrong?

Skype with a coach, Phil Moufarrege. I did have some inklings when I recorded myself and thought I didn't sound the same. The Twang thread goes over the subject pretty good though, I would have probably understood it at some point. Phil helped me understand what to do with the exercises, and after that I understood just how similar KTVA's exercises were to some of MM's stuff...

Im a 17 year old guy and puberty 2 years back left me with a wretched voice filled with breaks and limited vocal range. I really want to overcome that and find my mixed voice

Uhh that's how it is with everyone who has an untrained voice.

EDIT: It all comes down to using the program you feel you understand and make progress with. And that has a lot to do with actually hearing when you make progress. Consistent progress.

EDIT2: Can you tell me why you originally turned away from Manning's program? What did you seek to improve, and did you succeed with KTVA? In other words: What do you feel SS/MM lacked that KTVA had?

[MusicalAsian]

@JayMC , how would I find a good coach on this forum? Wouldn't lessons be expensive? At 17 I don't really have much money And what is TVS? Would you say it is best to use TVS with the vocal coach? Or just do vocal coach and no TVS?

@khassera , i turned away from SS cause of what i have heard about SLS not working to get a powerful and fluid voice. However now i see KTVA is hard for me to understand but i am going to stick with it for a while and see what happens. If i get no progress, i'll be disappointed but I will move back to SS/MM

[Owen Korzec]

@JayMC , how would I find a good coach on this forum? Wouldn't lessons be expensive? At 17 I don't really have much money And what is TVS? Would you say it is best to use TVS with the vocal coach? Or just do vocal coach and no TVS?

@khassera , i turned away from SS cause of what i have heard about SLS not working to get a powerful and fluid voice. However now i see KTVA is hard for me to understand but i am going to stick with it for a while and see what happens. If i get no progress, i'll be disappointed but I will move back to SS/MM

TVS is a vocal method. just like KTVA is.

the great coaches that are most active on this forum that offer lessons in person on skype are (by username so you can search them):

Robert Lunte (TVS method coach - you'll want 4 pillars program if you take lessons with him)

Phil Moufarrege (trained KTVA so he could definitely help you)

CunoDante

FelipeCarvalho

Danielformica

some more affordable than others but around $100/hr is pretty standard though although some offer a free introductory lesson so check for that.

Yea don't bother with SS/SLS if your main goal is power and belting

[Guest]

@MusicalAsian

No one is saying the program alone is "bad" because it can help you at first but eventually you plateau. When that happens you'll realize that having someone chasing after all your bad mistakes can help you a lot. Without that extra set of ears on you - you might re-inforce some bad habits.

Although lessons might be from $30-$100 dollars depending on who you choose to learn from; even half an hour with an extremely good coach can be MORE beneficial for you. There are tons of programs that allow you to record your lesson with video or audio -> if none of that is possible literally just take notes

The BEST coaches that I've seen will come up with a mini-program just for you instead of a broad general program that "supposedly" works for anybody.

Don't listen to the SLS vs KTVA vs TVS crap email or skype the teachers directly and find out who can help you the most.

Here is a clip of Ariana Grande's vocal coach lol.. it's nothing magical but just want to show you that if even a superstar of this level has to work. There's videos of Ariana doing "wooo-wooo" somewhere as well!

Classic Ariana and "tailored" exercises

[Khassera]

@khassera , i turned away from SS cause of what i have heard about SLS not working to get a powerful and fluid voice.

I see. Well, good luck to you. :)

[MusicalAsian]

@Owen Korzec , apparently ppl like Adam Lambert use SLS but im not sure. I totally love his voice though. It's super strong. I cant stay if SS and MM would not be a great powerful voice builder cause I never used them in commitment. Do any of the coaches you mentioned there do any genre singing? Are TVS and KTVA similar? Either develops voice as long as you commit time to it?

@JayMC , if I pick a coach from this forum, will they be teaching me based off their own program? Or do some not have their own programs and just teach what they know? Who would you say are the best coaches? Thanks so much for the videos I definitely would like the coach that makes a program tailored uniquely to my voice I feel like it would be best to to go for voice lessons instead of blindly doing programs alone cause idk if im doing it right.

Thanks to you all in general for being so helpful!!

[MusicalAsian]

@JayMC , i wonder what method ariana grande's voice coach uses

[ronws]

These singing systems, whichever works for you, does not make you into a copy of Adam Lambert, et al. With enough work, you become a singer of equal respect and ability.

And don't worry about popular internet opinions of training systems. I have seen people here say less than positive things about nearly every system, including 4 Pillars, KTVA, CVT. And moreso, many positive things about those systems and students of each system doing astounding things.

And numerous times, someone has linked in a sound clip of Michael Jackson doing a lesson with Seth Riggs (SLS). If I were Seth, I would change that to Speech LIKE Singing, the idea being that singing should sound as articulated and clear as speech would normally be. Even if you do somethings a bit differently in singing than you would do in speaking.

I do applaud, MusicalAsian the advantage of live and in-person lessons over recorded material. And for that, there is skype, available from every teacher here, including our benefactor, Robert Lunte. So, if you have the means and ability to do skype, that is always a good option, especially if your location does not have a lot or any singing teachers, especially those who can teach pop and rock. And pretty much every teacher here as tutorial and tip videos you can check out and see which one speaks best to you in presentation, sound that you are going for. Forget about opinions and form your own. You will, anyway.

[Owen Korzec]

Adam Lambert using SLS? That's news to me, I was pretty sure he follows CVT

If the teacher made a program they'll have you follow it and if not they won't. More common to have teachers who don't actually.

[Xamedhi]

I think teachers have different approaches, and that's mainly the big difference between them. Some personally like the strength approach, the finesse approach. The "relaxation" kind of guidance... so at the end it all comes to wether you like and/or understand your teacher well. Two teachers of CVT might have different approaches. Or two SS, the same thing. Kind of Brett Manning compared to Jesse Nemitz, for example.

A good teacher will give you exercises that will help you get better at what you do well and fix and correct what you do wrong.

[MusicalAsian]

@ronws aren't KTVA and 4 pillars by Robert lunte sorta similar? So If i get 4 pillars, it is best to do a vocal lesson with lunte during it? About the other vocal coaches on this forum, do some of them not have vocal programs made? So if i took a lesson with them, would that mean they specially design a unique program for me since they may not have a vocal program they created?

@Owen Korzec, so basically CVT and 4 pillars etc, they are both really good but are different in some aspects? Are you also saying that most vocal coaches on this forum don't have a program that they made for you to follow but they can make a unique one just for you?

[Xamedhi]

Well, that's exactly what happens with every coach you will meet. Any good coach, I guess. And that was the point in my previous post. Whether you take lessons with Robert, Phil, Daniel, or whoever.. they will listen to your voice, make notice of what you do right/wrong and they will make you do exercises to adress your weaknesses and strengthen your virtues. It doesn't matter if Robert gives you a set of Onsets, Jamie Vendera gives you certain types of sirens or whatever, the point is that the road is different but the result would be pretty much the same if you train your voice to it's full potential.

[Danielformica]

Adam lambert was first a great singer then after American idol he studied a little with Dave stroud, same with timberlake.

I was around Dave during that time and he would tell you too all he did was keep their voices balanced.he didn't mess with their singing.

Technique is the same at that level no matter who they study with. They already understand their voices. They just need to understand balance and warming up and down.

This is why with one student I work a lot of falsetto with another I work a lot if chest. With another I just help them map songs. Nobody is the same.

[Xamedhi]

Thanks Daniel for your intervention

Probably MusicalAsian has the picture more or less clear now :P