How do i tackle and practise around passagio...please help me

[Olem]

Hello, singing folks!

I am struggling to have a full voice around and after the passagio. Around passagio i am either pulling chest to escape it or i only get falsetto, even if i add twang, that is, a very thin voice. I have read and heard that to develop a full voice, Jamie Vendera´s Tone Transcending or Mezza di voce, is a great alternative. So, i have tried to practise this for a couple of months now, but i am not certain if i am doing it right. Here, on this excellent forum i have heard that you should enter your head voice around E4, so i have tried that, but it seems my voice chokes and i am not coming close to a loud voice. Here is an example:

http://www.box.net/shared/m1h4fkmsuc

And here is another example where i try to keep my chest voice in it:

http://www.box.net/shared/zsp1zmx859

The second example sounds best and i don´t feel like i am struggling, but the question is, should i continue practising like the first example where i put my head voice, god, i am not really sure if the second example only has chest voice in it because i feel a buzzing at my teeth, maybe it´s a mixed voice, or should i go with the second example?

Here is the G4 example where i, in the beginning, put head voice and then in the end i go with chest where i feel like i am on the edge, straining a little:

http://www.box.net/shared/e0l4lm797g

Then, i really have to transition to my head, no matter what, and then i feel my voice is much weaker, falsettoish:

http://www.box.net/shared/4knvj9lhyi

Do i tackle the TT right here, will my voice be stronger if i just continue practise like this or am i doing it wrong?

The only way i feel i am really getting a resonance in my head and feel it´s strong is when i am lowering my larynx and get my voice to sound like a operavoice:

http://www.box.net/shared/s16d59ml2y

http://www.box.net/shared/5sugrl6u4p

Are these two examples to be considered full voices?

So, am i doing the TT right in any of these examples. If not i would really appreciate if i could have a good tip of how to tackle it because i am about to give up my singing and since i don´t have any teacher nearby or have sufficient money to book a lesson i have to go by myself for now.

Thanx in advance/ Ola

[gno]

Your voice has a nice quality and for sure you can learn this. Your examples are really good!

In the example where you started feeling it in your teeth, it sounded like pulling chest where you didn't modify the vowel, so that there wasn't enough resonance, and thus a thinner sound.

I learned passagio using vowel modification. For example, the "ah" vowel will start sounding thin (and your voice starts feeling stressed) at E4, if you don't modify it. Try this - sing an ascending Amajor scale starting on A3 with the "ah" vowel (as in Tall). Use a full chest voice. when you get to E4 change the vowel to "uh" or "oh" and keep singing up. You can actually drop the soft pallet a little to feel like you are yawning at the E4. You should notice that this is much easier to sing than keeping the "ah" vowel. The bottom doesn't drop out as much at E4. Once you get the sensation, try making the "oh" or "uh" vowel sound like "ah". That is vowel modification and is used by a lot of singers. It is also called "Covering". Some people equate it with CVT's Curbing mode.

This is a different approach than starting in your head voice and trying to make it louder. That may be another good technique - I don't know. It is not the way I learned.

(I am not a voice teacher - I am just speaking from my own experience - there are a lot of good people on this forum)

[Olem]

Thanx for your reply, Guitartrek!

I will try this tip, Guitartrek, and i have read about vowel modification and covering in the passagio when you are sliding. But when you do a TT, how do you do it, when i come to the E4 i use the "oh" or "uh" vowel and not any other vowel?I remember Jamie in his book didn´t say anything about using different vowels when doing a TT, only that you should sing "yay" like in "play". But as i said, my voice chokes around passagio when i use "yay".

[gno]

Olem - I don't know what you mean by TT? Choking around E4 is common which means you are not quite doing it right yet.

Basically every vowel has an "alternate" modified vowel that you use when transitioning into passagio. "ah" goes to "oh" or "uh". "ee" goes to something that sounds like "eight". I learned the "ah" first. I'm not at all familiar with Jamie's method. I learned this from the Ken Tamplin method, which is basically the traditional bel canto approach, and it definitely worked for me.

You can also try singing an "ng" through the passagio - that helps get the sensation, since the soft pallet is completely dropped already like a yawn. Try again an ascending scale starting lower like A3 and go up. You need to try to bridge your lower voice into the passagio, which is the tricky part.

Also, I don't want to confuse you if you are already going with Jamie's method. Generally it is good to try just one method at a time.

[Steven Fraser]

Olem - I don't know what you mean by TT? Choking around E4 is common which means you are not quite doing it right yet.

Basically every vowel has an "alternate" modified vowel that you use when transitioning into passagio. "ah" goes to "oh" or "uh". "ee" goes to something that sounds like "eight". I learned the "ah" first. I'm not at all familiar with Jamie's method. I learned this from the Ken Tamplin method, which is basically the traditional bel canto approach, and it definitely worked for me.

guitartrek, Olem: A good alternate vowel for ee in the passaggio is Ih, as in the english word 'fit'.

guitartrek: TT is tone transcending.

[ronws]

Geno gave good advice. I've been doing this a while and not realizing what it was i was doing. On some songs I thought I was high in the chest but, more than likely, I was covering in a passagio area, allowing the use of head voice volume to still sound "chesty." To that point, I have recently been warming up with sirens, sort of. I don't sound exactly like a siren on an emergency vehicle, of course, but I do whine. I do this along with achieving different pitch ranges. This helps get the twang going. To me, and this has already been stated a number of times by Robert Lunte, twang is the key. Once you "get your twang on," you can modify or whatevever from there. In fact, imagine twanging and using a vowel modification, just for warm-up. Then use that exact practice in a song with a troublesome passagio patch.

Case in point, for me, is the troublesome song "I Remember You" by Skid Row. I had decided to do that song on a lark and it kicked my butt. So, I am returning the favor (when something kicks my butt, I kick it right back). Using the advice of getting into headvoice sooner. What this has meant is to change breath support a little, and modify a vowel here and there, rather than trying to carry a chesty belt that high. I'm still working on it but at least I have a path and an idea.

[ronws]

Another thing, Olem. Some of your head tones, when resonated well, sound voluminous and could have passed for sounding "chesty." This is where you must rely on the fact that it sounded well resonated and not weak, in spite of the fact that you did not "feel" it in your chest. Get what I am saying? Many is the the "head" tone that sounded chesty because it was resonated properly. You absolutely have to get away from this idea that a strong note can only be felt in the "chest." While singing a note that felt like "high chest" may have felt "natural," that doesn't mean that it was the easiest way to sing that note. Be not afraid of the head voice. Embrace it. Become one with it. Slip the surly bonds of "everything must feel like chest or it is weak." Relinquish this bel canto chest thing. See how high you can fly when you drop what Rick so eloquently calls the "old baggage."

[Robert Lunte]

Olem, I refer you to this video I produced a couple years ago, but has been pretty popular... let me know if you have any questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8zroG9QWNc

[VideoHere]

Hello, singing folks!

I am struggling to have a full voice around and after the passagio. Around passagio i am either pulling chest to escape it or i only get falsetto, even if i add twang, that is, a very thin voice. I have read and heard that to develop a full voice, Jamie Vendera´s Tone Transcending or Mezza di voce, is a great alternative. So, i have tried to practise this for a couple of months now, but i am not certain if i am doing it right. Here, on this excellent forum i have heard that you should enter your head voice around E4, so i have tried that, but it seems my voice chokes and i am not coming close to a loud voice. Here is an example:

http://www.box.net/shared/m1h4fkmsuc

And here is another example where i try to keep my chest voice in it:

http://www.box.net/shared/zsp1zmx859

The second example sounds best and i don´t feel like i am struggling, but the question is, should i continue practising like the first example where i put my head voice, god, i am not really sure if the second example only has chest voice in it because i feel a buzzing at my teeth, maybe it´s a mixed voice, or should i go with the second example?

Here is the G4 example where i, in the beginning, put head voice and then in the end i go with chest where i feel like i am on the edge, straining a little:

http://www.box.net/shared/e0l4lm797g

Then, i really have to transition to my head, no matter what, and then i feel my voice is much weaker, falsettoish:

http://www.box.net/shared/4knvj9lhyi

Do i tackle the TT right here, will my voice be stronger if i just continue practise like this or am i doing it wrong?

The only way i feel i am really getting a resonance in my head and feel it´s strong is when i am lowering my larynx and get my voice to sound like a operavoice:

http://www.box.net/shared/s16d59ml2y

http://www.box.net/shared/5sugrl6u4p

Are these two examples to be considered full voices?

So, am i doing the TT right in any of these examples. If not i would really appreciate if i could have a good tip of how to tackle it because i am about to give up my singing and since i don´t have any teacher nearby or have sufficient money to book a lesson i have to go by myself for now.

Thanx in advance/ Ola

olem,

i do messa di voce, (a.k.a. jaime's transcending tone) as part of my vocal exercises and i posted one on the forum.

i swear by it.

understand that just the basic one i'm working on (soft to loud version) is without a doubt one of the most, if not the most difficult exercise you can do because you are starting in falsetto and swelling the tone into a real strong full voice on the same pitch. you are singing through a break point. when you first start doing it, you will hit all kinds of bumps and cracks and skips (it takes a long time to master) but i can tell you the benefits come to your singing even if you don't do it right!!

sounds like a couple of the ones you did you just swelled the falsetto.

also, you must be fully warmed up before you go near it.

you have to support the notes.

although anything's possible, if you're on the right track you'll likely hit these bumps and skips and wiggly sounds before you nail that exercise. don't give up...but you need to realize that's a bitch of an exercise.

[Olem]

Thanx for your replies, everybody!

Yes, Videohere, i know i stay in falsetto, because my voice chokes, i hit a wall and can´t go further.

Robert, thanx for your tip. I feel i can do bridging from my chest to my head pretty well, but it is my weak voice around the passagio i am not satisfied with, therefore practising Tone Transcition trying to make it stronger, but as it is now i am not making any progress from E4 to A4, from B4 and up i feel my voice is much stronger. I try to add twang but it doesn´t help.

[Steven Fraser]

Thanx for your replies, everybody!

Yes, Videohere, i know i stay in falsetto, because my voice chokes, i hit a wall and can´t go further.

Robert, thanx for your tip. I feel i can do bridging from my chest to my head pretty well, but it is my weak voice around the passagio i am not satisfied with, therefore practising Tone Transcition trying to make it stronger, but as it is now i am not making any progress from E4 to A4, from B4 and up i feel my voice is much stronger. I try to add twang but it doesn´t help.

Olem: Just out of curiosity, what is your approach to breath management?

[Olem]

Hello, Steven!

Well, i try to inhale down to my stomach, expand my ribs and tighten my lower abdominals a bit.

[VideoHere]

Olem - I don't know what you mean by TT? Choking around E4 is common which means you are not quite doing it right yet.

Basically every vowel has an "alternate" modified vowel that you use when transitioning into passagio. "ah" goes to "oh" or "uh". "ee" goes to something that sounds like "eight". I learned the "ah" first. I'm not at all familiar with Jamie's method. I learned this from the Ken Tamplin method, which is basically the traditional bel canto approach, and it definitely worked for me.

You can also try singing an "ng" through the passagio - that helps get the sensation, since the soft pallet is completely dropped already like a yawn. Try again an ascending scale starting lower like A3 and go up. You need to try to bridge your lower voice into the passagio, which is the tricky part.

Also, I don't want to confuse you if you are already going with Jamie's method. Generally it is good to try just one method at a time.

guitartrek, please tell me what does "ay" as in "rate" go to? an "ugh" (i hope)

thanks. bob

[Olem]

Ok, so i tried to alter a vowel to a more closed vowel and then just tried to get as much head resonance as possible. Here are my new examples:

http://www.box.net/shared/z5g5fsq2nv

http://www.box.net/shared/entcgj4ajq

What do you think about these two examples, am i on the right track here, does it sound good?

[gno]

Olem - in the first one it sounds like you are doing the passagio in a covering sort of way which is good. The second one sounds like you almost have a "heady" maybe falsettoish that you are twanging for a brighter sounds. Both are good and you can't say one is correct and the other is not. But the first is more like I think what you are going after.

You should try first one again, but sing the "ah" vowel the whole time starting low and going high. Then we should hear the vowel modifying around E4. You are definitely on the right track.

[gno]

guitartrek, please tell me what does "ay" as in "rate" go to? an "ugh" (i hope)

thanks. bob

Bob - You're right - it does sort of go towards the "uh" sound. It's like the back of your mouth and throat are doing these darker vowels, but the front of the mouth is disguising them as the original vowels.

[ronws]

To me, the first one sounded stronger. But the twang in the second did produce some neat tonality, too.

[Olem]

Sorry, folks!

My second link above was not the right link. I´ll send you the right one here, an E4:

http://www.box.net/shared/ksn997nfc8

What do you say, a good covered vowel in head?

[VideoHere]

Sorry, folks!

My second link above was not the right link. I´ll send you the right one here, an E4:

http://www.box.net/shared/ksn997nfc8

What do you say, a good covered vowel in head?

olem, i think that was d sharp, wasn't it?

[Olem]

Well, according to my pitch program Sing And See it was an E, but it´s not a big deal if it wasn´t, the important thing is if the tone had resonance and sounded well.

[Steven Fraser]

Hello, Steven!

Well, i try to inhale down to my stomach, expand my ribs and tighten my lower abdominals a bit.

Olem: Ok, thanks.

An aspect of general voice training is the need to unlearn any habits that cause too much breath energy to reach the muscles at the level of the larynx. If there is too much breath energy, (that is, pushing in and up too much in the abdomen, or letting the ribs fall too rapidly) the vocal bands respond by raising the muscle activity of the 'shorten/thicken' muscles, and also the adduction, to resist the extra breath energy. This combination of laryngeal muscle activities can only be sustained E, Fs or G (depending on voice type) before the muscles just give up... and a crack occurs.

While a male voice can get away with this for a while, it cannot be made to transition smoothly to the coordinated, freely-made (and powerful) headvoice. If that kind of head voice you want, then I suggest that you review some of the other 'passaggio transition' threads here. There have been many posts, by myself and others, as to ways to approach this challenging area. For my part, I will provide some links to my longer articles so you can get a sense of the classical approaches to this topic.

[Olem]

Thanx for your excellent post Steven!

That meaning you have come to the conclusion that i have too much breath energy . Ok, that´s what i suspected, when you want more volume i guess it´s very easy to just push too hard. I will definately work on that more and focus more on resonance.

[Steven Fraser]

Thanx for your excellent post Steven!

That meaning you have come to the conclusion that i have too much breath energy . Ok, that´s what i suspected, when you want more volume i guess it´s very easy to just push too hard. I will definitely work on that more and focus more on resonance.

Olem: I did not come to that conclusion about your particular voice, but rather was explaining a very-often-occuring situation with male voices experiencing issues in the passaggio. I could not let the idea remain unmentioned. One never knows, without working with a singer, what the specific situation may be.

More later. Just moving to my new house.

[Olem]

Ok, Steven, that´s ok, good luck with your move.