I have a bunch of dumb questions for you guys!

[MrLilliz]

First of all, my english might be a bit off as i'm from Sweden. Sorry.

Second, my range is (at the moment) from C#2 up to C4 in chest voice. With quite a lot of strain i can hit an E but i wouldn't be able to sing it in a song so i don't include it. I usually crack at B3 and flip to D4, into what is either light head voice or falsetto. It isn't breathy but sounds weak. In that voice i can get up to an A#4.

So, the questions:

1. I want to be able to sing most styles but i'm just starting a band with my buddy, who is a drummer and pianist, and we're both into Metallica and Rise Against so that's what we'll be playing. Hetfield's and McIlrath's highest notes seem to be around A4. Do they sing in head voice?

2. My range feels pretty damn useless. I have to sing most songs an octave lower or transpose them down a fifth. Will i ever be able to sing stuff above middle C comfortably? I suppose i should practice bridging, perhaps using twang?

3. Meanwhile, are there any good songs within my range except Johnny Cash tunes?

I'm grateful for any help at all :)

[gno]

For sure you can extend your range. You have the ability to sing in full voice anything you can sing in falsetto - and then some. It takes some time and work and you need to train doing the right things. If you are serious about wanting to do this I would recommend finding a local teacher - or some on line lessonns - to get a starting point and foundation. You can also try buying an instructional DVD - there are many available.

[MrLilliz]

I have been using Brett Manning's singing success for a month but i'm not getting anywhere. All the scales start just below middle C and he assumes that everybody already know how to use head voice properly. Should i try to go through the scales anyway and just work on it until the crack smoothens out?

I've heard many good things about Rob Luntes program but i'm on a tight budget at the moment, perhaps in the future. Does he go into bridging and extending range?

[Mr Bounce]

If you can really get down to C#2, that is impressive and you are definitely a bass! Then you say that you 'flip' at a B4, which would be extremely high territory for a bass. I think audio clips would help here. I am not a vocal coach but I think that you would benefit from lessons if you can afford them.

Singing Success definitely does not cater for a bass voice IMO. I am a baritone, and many of the scales start at around G2 or A2, which is easily comfortable for us, and would be funny for you. However, I do believe it is a good overall program for building range and making singing "easy." This forum seems to hate Brett but without SS I still wouldn't even know what "head voice" is, and I still wouldn't be able to get above middle C. If you are a bass, I think you can definitely learn from his idea of keeping it light and building from there. But again, I am not a vocal coach. Good luck :)

[Steven Fraser]

If you can really get down to C#2, that is impressive and you are definitely a bass! Then you say that you 'flip' at a B4, which would be extremely high territory for a bass. I think audio clips would help here. I am not a vocal coach but I think that you would benefit from lessons if you can afford them.

Singing Success definitely does not cater for a bass voice IMO. I am a baritone, and many of the scales start at around G2 or A2, which is easily comfortable for us, and would be funny for you. However, I do believe it is a good overall program for building range and making singing "easy." This forum seems to hate Brett but without SS I still wouldn't even know what "head voice" is, and I still wouldn't be able to get above middle C. If you are a bass, I think you can definitely learn from his idea of keeping it light and building from there. But again, I am not a vocal coach. Good luck

Misters Lilliz and Bounce: Depending on how you count, 'flipping at B4' could be the B right next to mid c, which would be right in the correct place for a bass, on certain vowels.

For the bass, take any exercises from singing success and transpose them down a major third, 4 half steps. If a very deep bass (and a C# bottom is not), go down 3 more half steps to start.

[MrLilliz]

Singing Success definitely does not cater for a bass voice IMO. I am a baritone, and many of the scales start at around G2 or A2, which is easily comfortable for us, and would be funny for you. However, I do believe it is a good overall program for building range and making singing "easy." This forum seems to hate Brett but without SS I still wouldn't even know what "head voice" is, and I still wouldn't be able to get above middle C.

They start at G2?? Blimey, then i've been singing everything an octave higher. Oh god, i feel stupid right now

So you have found your head voice? Did yours sound weak at first too, and how did you go on from there, getting rid of the break and so on?

Sorry about the massive amount of questions

Misters Lilliz and Bounce: Depending on how you count, 'flipping at B4' could be the B right next to mid c, which would be right in the correct place for a bass, on certain vowels.

For the bass, take any exercises from singing success and transpose them down a major third, 4 half steps. If a very deep bass (and a C# bottom is not), go down 3 more half steps to start.

Oh sorry, of course i meant B3, right next to C4. The first post is now edited.

Why on earth did i not think of transposing? Might as well get a little piano practice out of it. Thank you!

[Steven Fraser]

MrLilliz:

Training the bass voice has its own challenges. One of the most significant is the location and management of the bridge area, which for the bass is lower than for tenor and baritone.

The bass voice will benefit from all scale and interval exercises used for other voices within the passaggio. It does, though, need special attention due to the muscularity of the vocal bands. Many basses find it difficult to discover the lighter registration and adduction compensation needed in this range.

There are two categories of exercises beneficial for the bass in this endeavor, a) exercises with the two vowels with lowest passaggio, and exercises which induce lighter registration via reflex.

First, the low-passaggio vowel exercises. As background, the passaggio entry point (aka the Primo Passaggio) on the upward scale is a resonance effect related to the vowel. In other words, the passaggio moves based on the vowel. It is lowest for the /i/ (ee) and /u/ (oo) vowels.

The purpose of using these vowels in passaggio transisitions is that for them, the entry to the passaggio occurs lower, and the singer can experience the sensations of singing in the passaggio region with more-accessible notes.

For the bass, the entry point for /i/ and /u/ vowels is about the G or Ab below middle C. Any pitch pattern exercise, scale or arpeggio, performed on /i/ or /u/ which navigates notes below and above these will work fine.

Combined with that, registration can be reflexively lightened by use of semi-occluded consonants, V, voiced TH, Z and others. Vocalizing pitch patterns with these consonant sounds sustained causes an adjustment to occur in the laryngeal musculature during phonation, changing the balance of registration to a slightly more light production.

Building on these two approaches in various combinations, the bass is able to discover and build into muscle memory the coordinations for transitioning out of the chest voice, while maintaining vocal power and quality.

Some Specific exercises to get you started:

1) As if to produce an /i/ vowel, start a voiced TH (as in the first sound of the English word 'the') on the D below middle C, firm, but medium soft. While sustaining it, sing the slow scale from the D to the A above, and back down. Repeat while thinking the /u/ vowel. You should be able to hear the characteristics of the vowel sounds within the TH consonant sound.

2) repeat exercise 1, and after reaching the top note, open the consonant slowly and gently to the actual vowel /i/, and sing it back down the scale to the starting note, maintaining the easyness of the vocal production. repeat for /u/.

3) Transpose up 1/2 step, and repeat exercises 1 and 2 with both vowels. Continue transposing until the top note is D.

4) Semi-occluded consonant sirens. Using the V, TH, french Zse, or Z, do a pitch-slide from the G below middle C to the octave below that, without pressing or attempting to 'muscle up' to make the lower notes impressive, and slide back up. Repeat a few times, until the slide down and up can be done smoothly and without any sudden changes in tone quality. Raise the starting note, and repeat. Return to the starting note, and slide down the octave and a fifth, that is, from the G below middle C to the low C (even if soft), and slide back up. Transpose the exercise upward by semitones, repeating a few times at each pitch level.

[ronws]

Just for the record, at least to my ears, James Hetfield is a baritone who can sometimes scratch tenor, especially if he uses a light tone. So, you should be able to competently handle Metallica-type material. Even on "Whiskey in the Jar-o" he only hints at tenor on the highest parts. He does sing it lower than the first recordings provided by Luke Kelly and the Dubliners, who picked it as part of their set. It's actually an old irish folk song about a highwayman who meets his match in Captain Farrell. It was later covered by the irish band Thin Lizzy. And Metallica covered the Thin Lizzy version.

Anyway, you've come to the right place to expand your range or at least refine your sound. And Steven is the resident technical expert. He knows more about the physiology and mechanics of the voice than most people know about their own trade or specialty. And Robert Lunte, who founded this site and this forum teaches people how to excel, regardless of where they are in their developement.

[MrLilliz]

I just discovered that i can somehow hit a G4! I simply went up high in my chest voice and switched to an AA (like "AAAH!!") vowel. It sounded a bit raspy. I didn't feel any tension at all, so i don't think i was pulling chest, and it definitely felt like "switching gears". Could this be head voice?

I also tried the same thing in falsetto and got all the way to an F5.

[Steven Fraser]

I just discovered that i can somehow hit a G4! I simply went up high in my chest voice and switched to an AA (like "AAAH!!") vowel. It sounded a bit raspy. I didn't feel any tension at all, so i don't think i was pulling chest, and it definitely felt like "switching gears". Could this be head voice?

I also tried the same thing in falsetto and got all the way to an F5.

MrLilliz: When you sing a resonant vowel, it makes a great deal of difference :)

[kalapoka]

This forum seems to hate Brett but without SS I still wouldn't even know what "head voice" is, and I still wouldn't be able to get above middle C.

..So true!

[Robert Lunte]

Hey, on the TMV Forum... remember, a dumb question... is just a dumb question. LOL ... just kidding... welcome to the TMV Forum... and you will learn a lot here... seems the boys got you covered here... your in good hands.

As for James Hetfield and head tones... uh... not really, practically never and if there are any, they are likely chokey.

Get some vocal lessons and stay close to this forum... Great to see your passionate about finding answers on how to learn to sing... You can do it, dont let go of your dream.

[Mr Bounce]

My gosh, if someone just compiled every one of Steven Fraser's posts, that would be a book worth buying ;-) I've been reading many singing books from my school's library but they never go into any sort of useful detail like you do :P

[chele1000]

Steven Fraser is the BEST and is very generous giving us all this information on these forums. With people like Steven and Robert Lunte and a score full of other people with valuable knowledge, you will get to your goal in no time! Welcome!

cheers!

[Robert Lunte]

MrLilliz: When you sing a resonant vowel, it makes a great deal of difference

Steve, can you get anymore "reputation" points? 23 pts?! thats sick dude!! LOL...

[Mr Bounce]

So you have found your head voice? Did yours sound weak at first too, and how did you go on from there, getting rid of the break and so on?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a professional singer by any means, but I found my "head voice" by doing the "falsetto" thing, and then making it a bit tighter. If you have seen any videos of Brett Manning, this guy loves to show his clean head voice starting with some vocal fry. It has a really obvious feeling when you get it, it's quite 'controlled,' yet free.

I am just trying to even out the "break." It's different every day, and I try all kinds of exercises, but I think I am definitely moving on. One thing that is so crucial is TWANG... I learned from this forum, because all these old school rocker guys love that sound. I love pop and clean singing but an amount of "twang" is crucial to moving up with the voice. It feels like a balance of air pressure, vocal fold closure and resonance in the head... But intellectually it is SO hard to just let go... The hardest part is to let go I think.

[Nathan]

I can't offer any technique advice. But you asked for artists who sing in the range you currently have. Some people to check out:

HIM (Ville Valo has an incredible bass/baritone voice, this is also very consistent with your other listed bands)

The Doors (low, but not the same style necessarily)

Seether

Creed

StainD

Hope you enjoy!

[Mr Bounce]

I can't offer any technique advice. But you asked for artists who sing in the range you currently have. Some people to check out:

HIM (Ville Valo has an incredible bass/baritone voice, this is also very consistent with your other listed bands)

The Doors (low, but not the same style necessarily)

Seether

Creed

StainD

Hope you enjoy!

Ville is great! His voice makes HIM.

However, Aaron Lewis of Staind speaks to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQq2zeMvCUE

Not interested in his actual band, but his voice and solo music... Damn.

[VideoHere]

mr. bounce, this "letting go" boy i know how you feel.

when i was learning how to transition from chest to head (through the break) i had to literally re-program my mind to start my ascent or descent earlier than i was accustomed to and come to terms with that new lighter tonality. i was actually thinking i was weakening as i went up the scale to reach the notes, (i'm the powerhouse type vocalist so this was scary to me) but i had never knew or employed twang or resonance adjustments.....when these start to kick in (in time) the notes at the top sound like they came from one solid voice and the ease of producing those high notes will astound you.

it's exilerating to me, because i would never have figured the way there without some training, work, and lessons. and i still have more work to do.

wait, you'll see in time, (be dedicated and patient) you'll be so good at it, you won't even know what a break feels like. i promise you.

[Mr Bounce]

Thanks for the reassurance ;)

[analog]

My gosh, if someone just compiled every one of Steven Fraser's posts, that would be a book worth buying ;-) I've been reading many singing books from my school's library but they never go into any sort of useful detail like you do

About the truest statement posted. I can tell you from experience(last 3 years of obsessive technique "questing") that if you in fact compiled all of Steven's quotes and then APPLIED THEM...you wouldn't need to spend a DIME(unless you count paper for printing them out ) to get where you wanna be. Just freakin' awesome!

[akarawd]

Mr Bounce wrote:

My gosh, if someone just compiled every one of Steven Fraser's posts, that would be a book worth buying ;-) I've been reading many singing books from my school's library but they never go into any sort of useful detail like you do

About the truest statement posted. I can tell you from experience(last 3 years of obsessive technique "questing") that if you in fact compiled all of Steven's quotes and then APPLIED THEM...you wouldn't need to spend a DIME(unless you count paper for printing them out ) to get where you wanna be. Just freakin' awesome!

I compile his posts too.. I sincerely hope he publishes a book.

[Steven Fraser]

I compile his posts too.. I sincerely hope he publishes a book.

Gentlemen: Your comments are very kind. I've thought for the past few years that I should compile the results of my study, thought experiments, reasoning, reading and teaching experience into some sort of consolidated form, but telling the truth, almost none of the core ideas I've been writing here at TMV is original to me. My gift, to you as members of this community, is the knack I have for taking this stuff and expressing it in a way useful to you.

The thing that provokes me to write for you is your expression of situations that need help, the problems you have that you'd like to overcome. I have experienced these same problems and frustrations in my own prior singing, and I really enjoy helping. In fact, its pretty much what drove me (as a graduate music student in the '70s) to read _everything_ I could get my hands on, good and bad. That's when I first engaged with the ideas of vocal science (Vennard, Appleman, etc) and the more esoteric writings of professional singers like Lilli Lehman, and the historical pedagogies of the Lamperti's. I know through these years that I drove my voice teachers crazy with questions, most of which they were not prepared to answer. My core questions: how and why.

Its gratifying to know that what I write to TMV is of use. Its one of the reasons I joined early on, so that I could make the things I know available to singers of nonclassical genres. I am a teacher by heart and training, and this is what I enjoy doing.

[VideoHere]

Gentlemen: Your comments are very kind. I've thought for the past few years that I should compile the results of my study, thought experiments, reasoning, reading and teaching experience into some sort of consolidated form, but telling the truth, almost none of the core ideas I've been writing here at TMV is original to me. My gift, to you as members of this community, is the knack I have for taking this stuff and expressing it in a way useful to you.

The thing that provokes me to write for you is your expression of situations that need help, the problems you have that you'd like to overcome. I have experienced these same problems and frustrations in my own prior singing, and I really enjoy helping. In fact, its pretty much what drove me (as a graduate music student in the '70s) to read _everything_ I could get my hands on, good and bad. That's when I first engaged with the ideas of vocal science (Vennard, Appleman, etc) and the more esoteric writings of professional singers like Lilli Lehman, and the historical pedagogies of the Lamperti's. I know through these years that I drove my voice teachers crazy with questions, most of which they were not prepared to answer. My core questions: how and why.

Its gratifying to know that what I write to TMV is of use. Its one of the reasons I joined early on, so that I could make the things I know available to singers of nonclassical genres. I am a teacher by heart and training, and this is what I enjoy doing.

steven, i'm a rather humorous mode today so i'll tell you something.

when i first joined the forum and began readings your posts, i remember thinking to myself "holy shit, what the hell is this guy talking about."

your knowledge and experience were so apparant, and the terms you used so academic, i knew if i stuck it out, i'd catch on and learn a lot in the process. i never even knew what a spectograph was nor it's application to singing! lol!!!

well, i'm here to tell to tell you i have learned a hell of a lot, and i am extremely grateful (as you know).

bob (videohere)