Male High C

[Snax]

Just out of curiosity, is the male high C note supposed to be a "tough" one? I've never actually thought about my own vocal range as far as what notes I can actually sing until now. Just for curiosities sake I went on youtube and found a few videos of men singing high C's and I can sing it easily and even higher. Is that something to be happy about or should every male be able to sing that note well? I'll post some audio examples as soon as I have a moment.

Hey, you know what? Why don't all of us post a sound clip of us singing that high C note in this thread just for fun? We have so many different and equally talented singers here, I think it would be cool!

Update...I just sang a high "F" !!! (Probably not like it should be done but what the heck! lol )

Here's a clip of me singing some high "operatic" notes. They don't sound as full on the recording as they do standing in the same room with me but you get the idea! https://files.me.com/muskysnax/oqn8gt.mov

[VideoHere]

Just out of curiosity, is the male high C note supposed to be a "tough" one? I've never actually thought about my own vocal range as far as what notes I can actually sing until now. Just for curiosities sake I went on youtube and found a few videos of men singing high C's and I can sing it easily and even higher. Is that something to be happy about or should every male be able to sing that note well? I'll post some audio examples as soon as I have a moment.

Hey, you know what? Why don't all of us post a sound clip of us singing that high C note in this thread just for fun? We have so many different and equally talented singers here, I think it would be cool!

Update...I just sang a high "F" !!! (Probably not like it should be done but what the heck! lol )

Here's a clip of me singing some high "operatic" notes. They don't sound as full on the recording as they do standing in the same room with me but you get the idea! https://files.me.com/muskysnax/oqn8gt.mov

that's an interesting question snax..i'm just trying to polish up a "b4" (the one note below it) so i'm not there yet. but on a one-octave siren in full voice on a "ay" for me it has been an accomplishment..funny though "ah's" and "ee's" come about easier. steve fraser has to come in on this...steve are you out there? I assumed the tenor c was enviable based on what i read in thomas appell's book..and now that i think about it most of these exercise dvds often stop at that note in the exercises.

now i'm really curious!!! steve, rob, martin, jaime, kevin!!! lol!!!

[Steven Fraser]

Just out of curiosity, is the male high C note supposed to be a "tough" one? I've never actually thought about my own vocal range as far as what notes I can actually sing until now. Just for curiosities sake I went on youtube and found a few videos of men singing high C's and I can sing it easily and even higher. Is that something to be happy about or should every male be able to sing that note well? I'll post some audio examples as soon as I have a moment.

Hey, you know what? Why don't all of us post a sound clip of us singing that high C note in this thread just for fun? We have so many different and equally talented singers here, I think it would be cool!

Update...I just sang a high "F" !!! (Probably not like it should be done but what the heck! lol )

Here's a clip of me singing some high "operatic" notes. They don't sound as full on the recording as they do standing in the same room with me but you get the idea! https://files.me.com/muskysnax/oqn8gt.mov

Snax: Whether the C is tough depends on the particulars of the voice. In Opera, Its not just about singing 1 note, but putting the C in context of an Aria, and having the note be beautiful and sound consistent with the rest of the voice. Or, in the case of the famous aria from the 'Daughter of the Regiment'... sung well nine times.

The 'leggiero' tenor voice has no problem with the C and higher.

Bob... Notice that Snax is singing a very good vowel for this note :-)

[Snax]

Thanks for the replies guy! :cool:

[VideoHere]

Snax: Whether the C is tough depends on the particulars of the voice. In Opera, Its not just about singing 1 note, but putting the C in context of an Aria, and having the note be beautiful and sound consistent with the rest of the voice. Or, in the case of the famous aria from the 'Daughter of the Regiment'... sung well nine times.

The 'leggiero' tenor voice has no problem with the C and higher.

Bob... Notice that Snax is singing a very good vowel for this note :-)

steve, what vowel was he singing?

[Steven Fraser]

steve, what vowel was he singing?

Bob, its a vowel shade between Uh and Ah, in which the 3rd Harmonic (H3) aligns exactly with the 2nd vowel formant. Here is the spectrograph of the high C. Count the harmonics (big, fat peaks due to vibrato) from the left. You can see that the loudest sound in Snax's tone is H3. Also, H5 is pretty pingy, too.

My point is not that he sings a this-or-that vowel, but that the vowel he picks is the best one for resonance on that note for his voice. This is something that can be discovered by each singer by doing some experimentation on notes closer to middle C with a good teaching ear in the room, or with realtime spectragram going:

Sing the G above middle C, and listen for the strength of the harmonic up 2 octaves (the 4th harmonic). Try shades of Uh, Oh, Ah and the related vowels, until one of them simply pops with volume on that harmonic. Using that vowel, do a vocal slide up to the high C. The 2nd formant tuning will now align with the 3rd harmonic, as it does in Snax's Voice.

[VideoHere]

Bob, its a vowel shade between Uh and Ah, in which the 3rd Harmonic (H3) aligns exactly with the 2nd vowel formant. Here is the spectrograph of the high C:

My point is not that he sings a this-or-that vowel, but that the vowel he picks is the best one for resonance on that note for his voice. This is something that can be discovered by each singer by doing some experimentation on middle C with a good teaching ear in the room, or with realtime spectragram going:

Sing the G above middle C, and listen for the strength of the harmonic up 2 octaves (the 4th harmonic). Try shades of Uh, Oh, Ah and the related vowels, until one of them simply pops with volume on that harmonic. Using that vowel, do a vocal slide up to the high C. The 2nd formant tuning will now align with the 3rd harmonic, as it does in Snax's Voice.

steve, ah, i understand, but wouldn't a goal be to hit these notes on all vowels?

1st question.

i experiment during practice where i siren up to a b4 then when i'm up there i manipulate the sound feeling for this "pocket of release" as i like to refer to it, to this "ringing" sound i get (sometimes)

and boy it just feels like something opened and this really nice sound comes out. i start on an "ay" and it ends up an "oo" as in "goof." sound right to you?

[Snax]

Thanks for the spectrograph Steven. I wish I understood better what all that means as I'm new to that stuff. I'll have to record some more clips trying different vowel sounds and see how that works out.

[Steven Fraser]

steve, ah, i understand, but wouldn't a goal be to hit these notes on all vowels?

Bob, interestingly, the answer is no. We are not trying to be able to sing all the vowel shades on all the notes. The goal is to be able to sing the best vowel for the word/syllable desired on the note. Some vowel shades do not align well with harmonics, so they sound weak and are tiring to make. This becomes increasingly true as the voice ascends the scale. The harmonics get farther apart, so fewer and fewer vowels will align well. That's the reason curbing mode cannot be done on all vowels up high.

1st question.

i experiment during practice where i siren up to a b4 then when i'm up there i manipulate the sound feeling for this "pocket of release" as i like to refer to it, to this "ringing" sound i get (sometimes)

and boy it just feels like something opened and this really nice sound comes out. i start on an "ay" and it ends up an "oo" as in "goof." sound right to you?

Bob, That sensation is telling you that your resonances are aligning well with the harmonics. However, OO is not the only sound that will do that. There are vowel shades from other languages (the so-called 'umlaut' vowels) and others from Italian, English and French that work perfectly well, and may be more suited for particular words.

For example, in the famous tenor aria 'Nessun Dorma', the climactic note (2nd from the last in the song) is the B natural on the second syllable of the word 'vincero' (pronounced veen - cheh -- ro (vowels ee, eh, oh) when speaking Italian.

Here are the spectrograms from performances by Franco Correlli and Luciano Pavarotti, on that note.:

From Correlli, at

From Pavarotti, at

Do you see how prominent the 3rd harmonic is in both of these performances? While you can barely see harmonics 1 and 2 in the orchestral clutter, that one stands up like a mountain. You can tell listening to both of them that the tenors are not singing exactly the same vowel. What they are doing is singing the best one for them on that note.

[Steven Fraser]

Thanks for the spectrograph Steven. I wish I understood better what all that means as I'm new to that stuff. I'll have to record some more clips trying different vowel sounds and see how that works out.

Snax: Here's something you can do to improve that C. Notice that the 3rd harmonic is 'taller' (louder) on the left than on the right? The width of the vibrato and that left peak can be interpreted to mean that you are singing a _SLIGHTLY_ too dark version of the vowel. Your 2nd vowel resonance is tuned to ring on the lower frequency of the harmonic as it cycles in the vibrato.

You will get _more_ sound and more consistent ring, and also an easier production if you raise your 2nd vowel resonance to be slightly higher... just above the center frequency of the harmonic. You can do that by smiling slightly, or otherwise brightening the vowel. You can experiment with the technique for this fine tuning which I described elsewhere in this thread.

[akarawd]

Is that something to be happy about or should every male be able to sing that note well?

My humble opinion is that unless someone has a physiological problem they are capable of singing that high - and it's certainly sth to be happy about.

It's the "well" part of your phrase I'm not too sure everyone can handle.

Great singing on the clip Snax.

[Snax]

What great posts Steven! I'm going to try smiling while singing that same note as well as anything else that changes it slightly.

This technical stuff is a bit over my head but I'm really interested in understanding it better.

[VideoHere]

steve, this is really enlightening/interesting...now when corelli sang the word "vincero" was harder to discern as "the word "vincero" than pavarotti's....that's acceptable?

is there a book you can recommend to gain better knowledge on this subject? i think it would help immensely. i'm seeing that a lot of books i've read hardly devote much to vowel adjustments.

i can see now that this "pocket" "enables" and frees you up like nobody's business. also, i should tell you when i practice the vowel "eee" as in "evil" i get this feeling as i ascend the scale like the "eee" has this pinhole that i sing through which can make the "eee' incredibly rich and "trebly"

now, what's the best way to approach this in terms of seekin out the best vowel to use?

other than the graph?

[Steven Fraser]

steve, this is really enlightening/interesting...now when corelli sang the word "vincero" was harder to discern as "the word "vincero" than pavarotti's....that's acceptable?

Bob: Part of it could be differences in the way the recording was made. The Corelli recording (from the '50s) was probably a mic'ed stage, with a little distance between him and the boom mike, and the mic was likely a bit off-axis, too. Pavarotti, was, well, close-mic'ed. You can see them right in front of his face. That placement of a microphone will keep the highs clear, and diction very 'present'.

That said, Pav was known (and respected by other tenors) for his especially fine, ringy, beautiful vowels. He did not always sing the 'formally correct' vowel for the word, but he always sang the best shade of it for the note and phrase.

is there a book you can recommend to gain better knowledge on this subject? i think it would help immensely. i'm seeing that a lot of books i've read hardly devote much to vowel adjustments.

Check out Barbara Doscher's book 'Functional Unity of the Singing Voice'. I understand its very well written. Barbara studied with the master of this... Berton Coffin. His book is called 'Overtones of Bel Canto'. I have his, but not hers.

i can see now that this "pocket" "enables" and frees you up like nobody's business. also, i should tell you when i practice the vowel "eee" as in "evil" i get this feeling as i ascend the scale like the "eee" has this pinhole that i sing through which can make the "eee' incredibly rich and "trebly"

now, what's the best way to approach this in terms of seekin out the best vowel to use?

other than the graph?

Bob, the 'pocket' is a sensation brought about by the strong resonance effects in your vocal tract. Its your body telling you that your voice is ringing like crazy.

As to the best way to approach seeking out the best vowel... when you get "Overtones of Bel Canto', it will contain a colored chart with all the best (most resonant) vowels to sing in each of the three vowel series (front, mid, back). For myself, I use the spectrograph real-time... I sing in to my computer about 45 mins or an hour every week, fine-tuning the shades.

There is another method, proposed and used by Coffin in the studio... a thing called a 'vowel mirror'. I will have to write up an article about what it is and how to use it. If you are a geek at all, its fascinating.

[VideoHere]

steve, bring it on....and thanks so much for your help. this is the next step for me, i'm sure.

i'll grab that book.

[Steven Fraser]

steve, bring it on....and thanks so much for your help. this is the next step for me, i'm sure.

i'll grab that book.

Bob, I was talking with Professor Lloyd Hanson today, who personally studied with both Coffin and Doscher at the University of Colorado. He said that Doscher's book is in many ways better than Coffin's, because of her ability with language. So, if you are only going to buy one, get hers. If you are going to buy 2, then add his.

[VideoHere]

Bob, I was talking with Professor Lloyd Hanson today, who personally studied with both Coffin and Doscher at the University of Colorado. He said that Doscher's book is in many ways better than Coffin's, because of her ability with language. So, if you are only going to buy one, get hers. If you are going to buy 2, then add his.

i just picked up a used one off amazon...thanks!!!!

[VideoHere]

Bob, I was talking with Professor Lloyd Hanson today, who personally studied with both Coffin and Doscher at the University of Colorado. He said that Doscher's book is in many ways better than Coffin's, because of her ability with language. So, if you are only going to buy one, get hers. If you are going to buy 2, then add his.

steve, can i be safe to conclude that when you have a acheived a "ringing" quality it is always an indicator of proper phonation?

[VideoHere]

Just out of curiosity, is the male high C note supposed to be a "tough" one? I've never actually thought about my own vocal range as far as what notes I can actually sing until now. Just for curiosities sake I went on youtube and found a few videos of men singing high C's and I can sing it easily and even higher. Is that something to be happy about or should every male be able to sing that note well? I'll post some audio examples as soon as I have a moment.

Hey, you know what? Why don't all of us post a sound clip of us singing that high C note in this thread just for fun? We have so many different and equally talented singers here, I think it would be cool!

Update...I just sang a high "F" !!! (Probably not like it should be done but what the heck! lol )

Here's a clip of me singing some high "operatic" notes. They don't sound as full on the recording as they do standing in the same room with me but you get the idea! https://files.me.com/muskysnax/oqn8gt.mov

hey snax, i forgot to compliment you...one a scale of one to ten, what was the volume of that note?

[Steven Fraser]

steve, can i be safe to conclude that when you have a acheived a "ringing" quality it is always an indicator of proper phonation?

Bob: Almost. It could be too heavy, and still would ring. But, if the note can be diminuendo'd (or better yet, with some messa di voce in it) then its a very good indicator.

The ringing does mean good resonance alignments, which is a big part of the equation. When the singer gets the ring on every note (even the soft ones), the overall effort required gets less, in other words, less physical work and strain is involved. Can you imagine singing continuously for an hour and not feeling any strain or strenuous effort the entire time? That's what is possible when the resonances are always in line.

[Snax]

hey snax, i forgot to compliment you...one a scale of one to ten, what was the volume of that note?

I'd say that for my own volume abilities it was a 5 or 6. I'm learning to reach ever higher notes now without needing to use excessive volume as I would always do in years gone by. My biggest goal is to sing better in and around those pesky passagio notes (low head tones) and not feel like I'm thinning out too much.

Thanks for the compliment too! :)

[ronws]

I totally agree with Steven that it's about the right vowel sound in the right spot. I was singing along with a song and a particular word had an i in it pronounced like in the word "hit." Which sounded weak and muted from me. So, I changed to 'eh' and it became bright, almost ringing, doubled in volume, with a whisker more air pressure than before. And that is how covering can get through a passagio.

[VideoHere]

steve, as your know, singing loud and powerfully has always come easy to me. now that i've learned to transition to head voice up to a b4 (tenor c is right around the corner) i'm still loud and powerful. scaling down is very difficult for me. but at least i'm not singing from the throat anymore.

but what i get, especially on the full voice a4 when i exercise, let's say on an octave scale is a cool feeling like the note is coming from someplace other than my mouth. as if the tone is a foot or so in front of my mouth. weird feeling.

[Steven Fraser]

steve, as your know, singing loud and powerfully has always come easy to me. now that i've learned to transition to head voice up to a b4 (tenor c is right around the corner) i'm still loud and powerful. scaling down is very difficult for me. but at least i'm not singing from the throat anymore.

but what i get, especially on the full voice a4 when i exercise, let's say on an octave scale is a cool feeling like the note is coming from someplace other than my mouth. as if the tone is a foot or so in front of my mouth. weird feeling.

Bob: Many singers of all voice types have reported that same sensation, like the voice is out in front of the body, and is substantially effortless, floating.

Start recording yourself in the store so you know what you sound like when that happens.

[mpropelus]

sounds good Snax! Sustaining that G#4 at the end seems pretty to you. What kind of training do you do? Whose vocal method do you use?