Can a good voice be hidden under poor technique?

[RiaJuuuuu10]

It's ironic that I'm making this post, because what I thought was using my diaphragm correctly the last time I posted here (around 2 years ago), turned out to be wrong again. So this is 6 years of on and off singing with terrible consistency of singing from my diaphragm. I really should've got a vocal coach to save me the time and humiliation.

But I think I may be onto it this time. I am hardly ever off key from what I know, unless it's because a note is out of my range, or I run out of air. My main problem is that I will use my diaphragm during one attempt of singing, and have no problems (and I'll think I sound somewhat decent), but then I won't be able to get that same grasp of it another time (and I sound more nasally). Are there any tips you guys can give me for this?

Also, my ex-band mate who referred to the sound of my voice as "the sound of a dying cow"(who for some odd reason told me I sounded like crap, but I have a lot of potential?... Maybe he just felt bad) recently heard me singing for the first time since the band days (2009). He commented by saying that the improvement is amazing, and that I actually sound "really good" (I personally only agree with his first statement). But I know that there's a lot I have to do to improve my technique before I start worrying about other things. So I come to this question...

I always hear that any "bad" singer who isn't tone deaf, can become a decent singer, but can a "bad" singer actually be quite talented beneath their collection of bad habits?

I'm not wagering that I'd be one of these exceptions, but it would be cool to think that anything is possible. I used to sound AWFUL, and now I have some friends telling me that I'm actually pretty good (but I'm definitely nothing compared to what I've been hearing in the Feedback sub-forum on here). Although I think there's still a lot I can improve involving technique, and I'm curious as to what accomplishing my goals can manifest. I ON THE OTHERHAND, don't think I sound all that great at the moment, mainly because a "friend" of mine has kind of killed my singing confidence by saying that I can never improve from what I was a year ago.

And on another note, are there any tips anyone has for me? I still think of myself as a beginner, and I'd like to do something to change that as soon as I can. I'm also very sorry if there are some typos, or if I'm ranting without making much sense at any point, I've kind of been awake for 35 hours for various reasons >.>

Thanks in advance.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

there's a distinct line between being able to naturally hold your larynx down at all your pitches, and not naturally holding it down or maybe holding on just a few notes.

ofc I have heard many U.S. natives who fall into the first category but have poor execution due to no experience. maybe you're in there., but maybe your in the second category too.

the last guy I worked with was talented, but couldn't execute it at all, due to poor basic experience.

tip wise, the question is, what are you looking to improve specifically? you mentioned diaphragm, but I need more detail.

the diaphragm is a muscle around your upper abdomen/low chest, and people refer to it because it can become tense when belting. understand you also need to pull your larynx down to keep the approach consistent. that larynx action is key.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

covers are good, and I just made an edit ^^^

[Owen Korzec]

Actually everyone has a good voice and all the bad voices are caused by poor technique

[RiaJuuuuu10]

Alright, I'll try to put one up at some point tomorrow (I need sleep before singing anything). The lowering of the larynx may be my main issue then, or at least one of them. I've always aimed at singing from my diaphragm, but was never really aware of any other factors (other than storing air). Does the diaphragm getting tense while belting have anything to do with the larynx?

[ChumelsVanCogle]

yes of course, but don't think too hard.

[Owen Korzec]

Alright, I'll try to put one up at some point tomorrow (I need sleep before singing anything). The lowering of the larynx may be my main issue then, or at least one of them. I've always aimed at singing from my diaphragm, but was never really aware of any other factors (other than storing air). Does the diaphragm getting tense while belting have anything to do with the larynx?

yea if you use diaphragmatic support incorrectly and lock the solar plexus it will carry tension all the way up to your larynx

this video may help you

If the demonstrations of the incorrect way in the video above sound kind of like you then maybe its tips will help.

don't worry about lowering the larynx, it's not going to make our break your voice, it just gives you a deeper tone. You can sound great with a high larynx or low larynx or medium, what makes it sound like a beautiful human voice instead of a dying cow, is removing excess tension.

[Felipe Carvalho]

About the thing of "hidden good voice":

We cant know that for sure, there are people who like to point and say "ohhh I hear a lot of potential on you", this is basicly fortune telling. Some people have a natural affinity with the craft, or musicianship, or both... But in my opinion this is not enough to predict results, specially because you dont know what kind of results and what kind of singing.

An interesting timbre is something desirable but far from being a requirement, some singers have cartoonish voices and still are great in what they do.

Nothing is granted, be it success or failure, you will have to work to find out. Its a simple choice, study and improve, or not. ;)

[VideoHere]

i'm sorry, but you do not pull the larynx down....

the larynx lowers naturally from the act of initiating a yawn (that's one way) and taking a nice low breath.

also, yes, a good voice can be hidden under poor technique and a singer with poor technique might actually be thought of as good.

example a breathy singer may be thought of as beautiful and flowing...but is it correct? probably not.

technique is not just about doing things "right." it's also about developing capabilities, vocal longevity, and stamina.

you can also have great technique, yet bore the hell out of the audience.

[Owen Korzec]

i'm sorry, but you do not pull the larynx down....

the larynx lowers naturally from the act of initiating a yawn (that's one way) and taking a nice low breath.

Thank you for mentioning this. I was under this confusion for a while too.

I would add, what you said must be followed by good support, closure, and throat shaping to KEEP the larynx down.

But I've found that just trying to intentionally lower the larynx, may cause problems like loose closure, greater separation of registers and flat pitch.

The lowered larynx is more of an effect, not a cause. It's what happens when you have your fundamentals down - your complete diaphragmatic support, efficient cord closure, resonance shifting, and elimination of excess tension.

[MDEW]

Back to the original question...A good voice can be hidden under bad technique AND good technique can hide a bad voice, or at least disguise it.

The thing I hate about people saying that someone has a bad voice is that they usually do not go on to say why it sounds bad. Is it pitch problems or Tone problems? It could also be delivery and lack of emotion. Maybe sounds like you are yelling instead of singing.

Too many variables for just saying that someone sounds like a cow. There are many top singers that a lot of people on this forum think have awesome technique and I cannot stand to listen to them for one reason or another.

So your sound good or bad in some cases is subjective. Listen to your own voice and work on enhancing what you like about it. Or do as my brother does....Sing for the sake of singing and getting your message across without the burden of caring if one person out of onehundred doesn't like the sound of your voice.

[VideoHere]

great advice md.......

there's needs to be a distinction made between a lowered larynx and a low larynx.

i think the larynx needs to be able to ride where it needs to and stabilize when it needs to.

[RiaJuuuuu10]

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm quite sure that it's more of a tone problem if anything (assuming that a pitch problem is just hitting the wrong notes). The "friend" who told me I was a bad singer listened to me a year ago, and back then, I without a doubt was singing like the guy from that other video (about the solar plexis), except I sounded even worse than he did.

What does a "cartoon voice" sound like? I have a far different voice than anyone's I've seen here, but I don't think it's in a good way. I don't know how to describe the difference, but they definitely sound FAR better, without a doubt (even some people just starting out)7

On a side note, when singing all day or too much, is it normal for the bottom of your chest to feel weird/kind of sore?

[VideoHere]

barney (the smaller caveman) has the cartoon voice.....lol!!

[MDEW]

On the first one the microphone is being so over driven that you really can't tell what your voice really sounds like. It may have been a crappy pa system, recorder or someone who doesn't understand that you must pay attention to how the equipment is set up and far away from the microphone you need to be. On the second your voice didn't sound too bad depending on what genre or style of music you were supposed to be singing.

Maybe give an Idea of some of the Bands you wish to sing to.

There are other elements to singing than hitting a certain pitch. Keeping the volume consistent between words is one thing, smoothly gliding from one note to another is also important. Again these are determined by the STYLE or GENRE. Something that sounds awesome in country music will totally suck in Rock.

It sounds to me like this girl that said that you sound like a cow or whatever was just being mean and disrespectful. Some people are like that. Next time just tell her that her outfit makes her look ugly and walk away.

[ronws]

you can also have great technique, yet bore the hell out of the audience.

Excellent point.

[VideoHere]

tero, job #1, the one with the mouth, find a new friend.

job #2, remove these bad thoughts, and just focus on the task of becoming better. don't let anyone tell you, that you can't sing.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

heh. it sounds like you're in the tenor range but you just stick more towards the low end. it's a lot better than my voice, I'm like a bari-tenor / middle voice but I can't sing high at all; so I basically have a totally neutral sound.

[ronws]

I don't know what your ultimate range is but the weight of your voice is like a tenor. Which won't really matter unless you are being cast in an opera. Then, descriptions like tenor, baritone, goosenfrabe (my own term for my voice) become important.

The other thing no one is saying is the difference in the recordings. Basketcase sounds like it was recorded on a flip-style cell phone from 10 years ago.

The second sounds like you used a real mic or at least something better than the mic from a 10 year old cell phone. In that first recording, the mic is overloaded so badly, it was a miracle to hear anything at all. And your singing was not bad for punk. By the way, in case you didn't know, Green Day is a punk band. And you were fairly true to Billy's style of singing on that, except that he is less nasal, almost hyponasal.

Your friends don't know what they are talking about. And I would wonder to which singer they are comparing you.

I like to think I am a better singer than Mick Jagger. But he has all the money and I still work for a living.

But, to quote Adam Levine, "I've got moves like Jagger."

Yes, you have a good voice. Yes, you can improve with some technical study. And yes, your "friends" are wrong.

Then, again, my friend Lee used to give me a hard time. At work, we would have the radio on and I would sing along with a song, between hammer swings or running a hole hawg drill. And he would say, "Who sings that song?" I would reply, for example, "The Beatles." He would answer, "Well, let them sing it."

He asked, "Can you sing tenor?" I would reply, "yes." He would add, "tenor twelve miles away?"

"Can you sing solo?" "Yes." "Solo we can't hear you?"

Can you feel the "love" that was in the room?

Never once stopped me. Even if my voice gets classified by DHS as an enhanced interrogation technique. Even if it is compared as a punishment comparable to having a Vogon read poetry AT you, only to be surpassed by the poetry of Elizabeth Barrett Browning (obscure literary references courtesy of Douglas Adams and his book, "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.")

Sorry, I drifted a bit.

Anyway. You have a good start. Now, go on from there.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

well I have heard a lyric bass down to D2 that sounded like a tenor. how low can you sing? unless you can manage at least a good E2 or lower, I wouldn't call you a bass.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

well there's a very good possibility your one of those lyric basses that have more of a tenor signature, like the other guy I mentioned.

at anyrate, whether you're singing high or low, you don't sound bad at all. maybe your friend was jealous, lol.

and quite frankly that doesn't actually put a limit on your voice. I'm up in my bari-tenor range, but I've always had the least flexibility in comparison to lower or higher voices!

also when low voices sing high, they still have all the notes but tend to have a much rounder tone and less of a tonal break at the passaggios, which is a pretty unique sound. not all low voices follow that pattern, some still have more of a tenor signature, but it's certainly not a limiting factor from what I've heard.

[RiaJuuuuu10]

Sweet

I like bass singers, I'm a huge fan of The National, but the tenor sound fits the genres I plan to be singing more(Rock/Punk-pop/Alternative)

Edit: That's awesome! So there really is a lot a person can do with their voice regardless of what their starting range is. Thanks a lot for all the info/feedback man, I really appreciate it :)

[Lucca]

Voice type is of nearly no use in contemporary music. It does have to do with your tone but nothing with your range. There are a bunch of untrained tenors that cant hit high notes to save their lives.

Low voices can sing higher. But high voices cant sing lower because from what I know the thickness of your cords determines your ultimate low range.

Stay relaxed in your jaw and sing downward. Check your breath. Sing to the lowest note you can hit that resonates without the fry sound. Thats your low range for now.

And even that doesnt determine your voice type necessarily

(I cant hit a F2 without fry come hell or high water...)

You sound fine in your example, a little bit weird in some manerisms but the original has something like that too, so just keep going.

[ChumelsVanCogle]

heh I used to have good fry when I began as a baritone or when I was sick. as I trained I eventually lost my 3 lowest normal notes and my fry, and as I trained more my vocal cords sorta learned to tilt down to get those 3 lowest notes back in a more sullen voice., but I still can't get a good fry sound despite being able to control and tilt my cords very well. it's kinda funny that I've been in both realms, but my ultimately higher pitch actually makes my fry range worse.

I think every experienced singer can learn to tilt their vocal cords to get a few notes lower, but not everyone has a good fry tone in the end.

[gno]

You'd be surprised to hear the difference in your voice between recording on a laptop mic verses in a proper studio type environment. It's easy to dislike one's own voice to begin with. And when you record and listen back on whatever recording device you have and whatever room you are in, you can get another false reading on your own voice. I used to record with a good mic (Sure Beta58) but not even thinking about the room, and I hated my voice. It was the room with a bunch of undesirable standing waves that made me sound mid-rangy and "boxy". Like Owen said, everyone has the potential to make good sounds with what you were born with.

And yes there will be a night and day difference with vocal training.