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VideoHere

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folks, i'm not sure what kind of phonation is damaging to the vocal chords. there may be several unbeknowst to me. although i've read so much about them, i wouldn't know really unless i heard them.

would someone be nice enough to post some examples of this harmful type of phonation?

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damaging phonation cant really be heard, some singers use sounds that would be considered harmfull and are still okey.

Strain cant be heard but it can be felt

i see. then how would an instructor know their student was phonating dangerously?

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Here you go, Bob. A high school mate was able to squeal like a pig. I tried to do that and came up with this growl, instead. It doesn't use the actual vocal cords, so I think it uses the false cords. And I can't do this more than about twice, maybe three times. It hurts and makes my throat feel "sore."

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8750209/false.mp3

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I will allow myself to question Jens and Martin on this one. I've heard some vocal instructors say that they CAN hear if a singer is singing in a way that hurts and damages his vocal folds. Using CVT terms, I would imagine that a CVT instructor would be able to tell if a singer is not "singing in the center of a mode", in which case he might be doing some damage to his folds.

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Jon pall yes thats true you can hear if a singer is not fully centered, but not being centered is not dangerous it will only demand abit more support if done right. It's actualy more common by singers in CVT terms to sing in the Grey zones than being fully supercentered on each note.

"CAN hear if a singer is singing in a way that hurts and damages his vocal folds. Using CVT terms"

Often then you show them the random rocksinger like Jorn lande and they say "omg this guy will hurt himself blabla"

This happens because 2 things, people are generaly afraid of sounds that doesnt sound "beautiful" but "ugly" sounds is just as natural to our voice as the clean beautifulsinging. And equally many get vocalproblems doing perfectly legit sounds, in talking and singing.

Thats why it's important as a teacher to ask, cause it can sound perfectly fine but the student is feeling pain.

Vocalproblems occur in every genre, and is for sure not always related to vocaltechnique, alot can happen to a voice that throws it off balance.

Getting putdown and the lack of confidence makes you apply strain, Personal tradgedy people dying getting divorced ect.

Hard lifestyle, drugs alchol(the rocksinger killer) Overstressing your voice by talking way to much and not allowing the voice to rest. And so on

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/23766789/damaging.wav

Am i straining here? Do i hurt myself?

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jonpall,

I totally agree with Jens. A lot of teachers say that they can hear "bad strain".....but the truth is...they can't. ONLY by asking the singer you would know. That's why for instance a CVT teacher will keep asking if it feels ok....

I also talked about this issue before in another thread:

Yes I understand that a lot of people - especially vocal teachers - say that they can hear or sense that a sound is not healthy. But again, the point is that only the singer knows how it feels. For instance(as an example) - you say that my Overdrive/Curbing clip sounded free. What if I told you that while I did that clip I felt strained and became a bit hoarse afterwards? You would probably still say that it SOUNDED free....but the truth is it wasn't. And so it goes the other way around as well.....it may SOUND strained...but isn't.

I know this is a bit controversial - but it's the cold truth. Though many vocal teachers refuse to accept it and still go on claiming that they can hear right from wrong! And why is that? Because if not a LOT of them would be out of a job! ;)

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Jens...doesn't sound strained to my ears.

I 100% absolutely agree no freakin doubt...that it is VERY HARD to determine strain. I have had the worst problem with Curbing mode during lessons over last year. It SOUNDED fine to the ear(centered) but felt tight and uncomfortable. It is VERY frustrating to have someone go..."that's great" and feel like total shite in the throat.

Conversely, when I create high energy/pressure sounds that feel gloriously wonderful in the throat...I've heard the tsk tsk/watch out bs. At this point...F' it. I would much rather sing in a manner that doesn't feel uncomfortable even if it doesn't sound perfect.

I DO have 2 "abuse" cues that I look for in my voice:

1) Extra mucus that comes from nowhere

2) Sounding like Barry White after singing(my voice is nowhere near that deep normally)

The deep voice syndrome is usually the worst for me(swelling at VF level.)

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Jon pall yes thats true you can hear if a singer is not fully centered, but not being centered is not dangerous it will only demand abit more support if done right. It's actualy more common by singers in CVT terms to sing in the Grey zones than being fully supercentered on each note.

"CAN hear if a singer is singing in a way that hurts and damages his vocal folds. Using CVT terms"

Often then you show them the random rocksinger like Jorn lande and they say "omg this guy will hurt himself blabla"

This happens because 2 things, people are generaly afraid of sounds that doesnt sound "beautiful" but "ugly" sounds is just as natural to our voice as the clean beautifulsinging. And equally many get vocalproblems doing perfectly legit sounds, in talking and singing.

Thats why it's important as a teacher to ask, cause it can sound perfectly fine but the student is feeling pain.

Vocalproblems occur in every genre, and is for sure not always related to vocaltechnique, alot can happen to a voice that throws it off balance.

Getting putdown and the lack of confidence makes you apply strain, Personal tradgedy people dying getting divorced ect.

Hard lifestyle, drugs alchol(the rocksinger killer) Overstressing your voice by talking way to much and not allowing the voice to rest. And so on

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/23766789/damaging.wav

Am i straining here? Do i hurt myself?

okay then....if i'm singing agressively (whatever i feel subjectively is agressive) and i'm feeling no discomfort at all, can we assume i'm singing healthy?

so i.o.w....no discomfort = no danger?

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Videohere, ofc you would have to monitor your voice alittle afterwards. But yes does it feel good, it shouldnt be of any harm, sure there are always cases with voicepatients who have been straining right from the start that they are used to the hurtfull feeling. But in those cases they would run into big problems on even the easyest of vocalroutines.

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Videohere, ofc you would have to monitor your voice alittle afterwards. But yes does it feel good, it shouldnt be of any harm, sure there are always cases with voicepatients who have been straining right from the start that they are used to the hurtfull feeling. But in those cases they would run into big problems on even the easyest of vocalroutines.

i hear ya jens.....sometimes i actually like the strained vocal. however, my definition of strained may be different than another vocalist.

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"sometimes i actually like the strained vocal. however, my definition of strained may be different than another vocalist."

No you dont, you like a specific sound, if im guessing a more pushed type of singing :P

a sound is sound, just listen to the clip i posted above. Dont you think there's some guy around who sings like that and strains? the sound per se doesnt cause strain it's using to much muscle or tensing up while you create a certain sound.

Heck i sometimes feel myself strain alot more on small quiet passages than on real fulloutblast distortion.

So my point is really strain can occur on anytypes of sounds that you produce.

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"sometimes i actually like the strained vocal. however, my definition of strained may be different than another vocalist."

No you dont, you like a specific sound, if im guessing a more pushed type of singing :P

a sound is sound, just listen to the clip i posted above. Dont you think there's some guy around who sings like that and strains? the sound per se doesnt cause strain it's using to much muscle or tensing up while you create a certain sound.

Heck i sometimes feel myself strain alot more on small quiet passages than on real fulloutblast distortion.

So my point is really strain can occur on anytypes of sounds that you produce.

wait, i'm losing you.....are you saying it's okay at times...don't fear it?

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Any sound you can produce with your voice you can do in a healthy way. Do never fear your voice, choose how you want to sound and work yourway there :P

Thats basicly what im saying :P

like 25 years ago noone ever thought you could make growling in an healthy way for instance, it was labeled as dangerous for the voice. Now thanks to science we know it's not the cause. But sure there are people who strain to get into the growlingsound they just dont last as long as their comrades with good technique.

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Any sound you can produce with your voice you can do in a healthy way. Do never fear your voice, choose how you want to sound and work yourway there :P

Thats basicly what im saying :P

like 25 years ago noone ever thought you could make growling in an healthy way for instance, it was labeled as dangerous for the voice. Now thanks to science we know it's not the cause. But sure there are people who strain to get into the growlingsound they just dont last as long as their comrades with good technique.

i hear ya. thanks

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Hi Videohere,

Here's an example from my post "What kind of technique am I using in this distorted vocal ?" *

It felt like the vocal cords were grinding and produced a kind of burning sensation but nothing too scary.

The problem, as you can read in my post, is that it compromised the rest of my singing voice therefore although I had been using it for years I stopped a year ago.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1781520/Vocals/Hurting%20Distortion%20Vocal.mp3

Best,

akarawd

*http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=1044

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Hi Videohere,

Here's an example from my post "What kind of technique am I using in this distorted vocal ?" *

It felt like the vocal cords were grinding and produced a kind of burning sensation but nothing too scary.

The problem, as you can read in my post, is that it compromised the rest of my singing voice therefore although I had been using it for years I stopped a year ago.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1781520/Vocals/Hurting%20Distortion%20Vocal.mp3

Best,

akarawd

*http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=1044

the dropbox download has a bug in it...it's locking up my system

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I still like to object to my good friends Jens and Martin ... just a little bit :) When you look at a singer and you see stuff like them raising the shoulders when they inhale, shurely it would be beneficial to them to be told that their technique is incorrect and could lead to vocal damage. Also, even when you can't see the person, if you can hear them do lots of screaming with an AIRY sound (the big no-no in hard rock for singers), surely it would be likely to elongate their careers to start using less air. No? Oui?

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I still like to object to my good friends Jens and Martin ... just a little bit :) When you look at a singer and you see stuff like them raising the shoulders when they inhale, shurely it would be beneficial to them to be told that their technique is incorrect and could lead to vocal damage. Also, even when you can't see the person, if you can hear them do lots of screaming with an AIRY sound (the big no-no in hard rock for singers), surely it would be likely to elongate their careers to start using less air. No? Oui?

Si mon, verdad, ja, da, certainement, hai, ishi, yes. I agree with your statement on this.

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Yup. The larynx shoots all the way up under the chin and I push forward towards my adam's apple while in falsetto or light head voice.

It's taxing to the throat and renders the rest of the voice unusable. No amount of warm up/down, warm water etc would help and

I'm using a great deal of breath support. On the one hand it's a shame though 'cause live it sounds killer and it's a "lazy" way of producing

distortion although it doesn't occur below the passagio area, on the other hand it doesn't sound great recorded (what you hear I've been

practicing for years) and it doesn't allow for complex/fast melodies . I've stopped doing that for at least a year now and thankfully I've found a healthy way of producing distortion.

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