Can't keep larynx down. Please help :/

[The Scientist]

Hey,

I have a problem that when I go to head voice I justa can't keep larynx down. It will move up for high notes no matter what I try, and it always give me weak soud or my voice cracks or flips to falsetto. It will happen even for the easiest exercises like humrs. Is there something I can do :/

[forgivendays]

Hey,

Try singing in a "dopey" voice which brings your larynx down (like when yawning). You won't be able to apply that to your highest notes so you should work your way up from where you can do it comfortably. Also, make sure you don't overdo it, just drop it comfortably.

[Snorth]

The larynx moves up NATURALLY for high notes. And it should! You can lower it abit for a darker soundcolor but this talk about the larynx not being supposed to move at all when singing is 100% a myth.

[Steven Fraser]

The larynx moves up NATURALLY for high notes. And it should! You can lower it abit for a darker soundcolor but this talk about the larynx not being supposed to move at all when singing is 100% a myth.

Snorth: The word 'supposed' comes to us in the conversation as part of an aesthetic consideration about tone quality and technique. To say that the larynx should, or should not rise, apart from an aesthetic, is not reasonable.

[Snorth]

Snorth: The word 'supposed' comes to us in the conversation as part of an aesthetic consideration about tone quality and technique. To say that the larynx should, or should not rise, apart from an aesthetic, is not reasonable.

I think the problem that I wish to tackle here is people that think that all their problems with tone come from having their larynx too high when that usually is not the case. Now I'm not a vocal scientist, but if you wish to sing a G5 or higher as a man I veeeery much doubt you could keep your larynx low. Feel free to prove me wrong though, I have no problems with accepting new facts if they are proven to me. :)

[Steven Fraser]

I think the problem that I wish to tackle here is people that think that all their problems with tone come from having their larynx too high when that usually is not the case. Now I'm not a vocal scientist, but if you wish to sing a G5 or higher as a man I veeeery much doubt you could keep your larynx low. Feel free to prove me wrong though, I have no problems with accepting new facts if they are proven to me.

Snorth: Returning to the original poster's question... he wants to know how to keep his larynx from rising for higher notes. Your thought, if I understand it, is that the larynx reasonably should be expected to rise for the higher notes. My point was that larynx position preferences, or 'shoulds', must have a reference back to preferred tone qualities.

By way of explanation, the pitch-control mechanism of the voice is independent of the laryngeal positioning in the throat. Expressed another way, the range of frequencies that can be phonated does not depend on any particular vertical positioning of the larynx in the throat.

However, since the resonances of the vocal tract change as a function of its length, and the alignment of resonances to harmonics is advantageous to vocal function, there is a direct relationship between laryngeal height and the tone quality resulting from a given note. Laryngeal position, while not affecting the fundamental, does affect the tone quality.

As the larynx rises in the throat, the vocal tract is shortened overall. This shifts the frequency positions of the resonances upwards and farther apart. Additionally, the vocal tract has two sections, one 'behind' the hump of the tongue (the pharyngeal section), and the one 'in front' of the hump, the 'buccal' or 'mouth' section. The ratio of these two lengths in part determines the spacing of the vowel formants, thereby affecting the sung vowel.

Whether either of these effects is beneficial or a hindrance to the singer depends on the tone quality they seek to produce.

[Martin H]

By way of explanation, the pitch-control mechanism of the voice is independent of the laryngeal positioning in the throat. Expressed another way, the range of frequencies that can be phonated does not depend on any particular vertical positioning of the larynx in the throat.

Steven I don't think that you can isolate the pitch-control mechanism to the intrinsic muscles alone (TA and CT) - I assume that's what you are refering to here.

"In order to produce tones near the extreme ends of the pitch range, and to faciliate rapid changes in pitch, some extrinsic and supplementary musculature may be called into play"

p. 159 - Speech And Hearing Science - Willard R. Zemlin - 1998

And the actions of the extrinsic muscles would very likely change the vertical position of the larynx. :)

[VideoHere]

Hey,

I have a problem that when I go to head voice I justa can't keep larynx down. It will move up for high notes no matter what I try, and it always give me weak soud or my voice cracks or flips to falsetto. It will happen even for the easiest exercises like humrs. Is there something I can do :/

scientist...i've had success (and actually enjoy) doing scales using "goog" and "gug" with a cry sound.

you can really feel a nice muscle workout doing these and the larynx will drop down nicely.

i can record a piece of it if you'd like.

[Steven Fraser]

Hi, Martin!

Pitch control is not just TA and CT, but it covers most of the effects noticable.

Its interesting that you would quote Zemlin in this regard, as I find his choice of words on p 159 to be those a Ph.D would use if he thought the situation might exist, but could not say definitively. Further, he does not expound on the particular influences, nor attribute the influences to the charactistics of the frequency change.

In a situation where he could be difinitive... he is not. He could have defined the effects, and ascribed the effects to specific causes, but he does not. He does not even describe the 'extreme ends' or the particular extrinsic or supplementary musculature to which he refers. Perhaps all that is elsewhere in context on page 159.

So, for a scientist to be this non-specific, and to couch the ideas in terms of possibility rather than causality... this leads me to conclude that he is offering an educated opinion, or a thesis, rather than a conclusion.

All that said, there are extrinsic muscles that connect to the outside of the larynx, which are attached in a manner that could be brought to bear during phonation to influence pitch. Principal among these is the pair of SternoThyroids, which arise from the sternum and connect obliquely to the left and right front facets of the thyroid cartilege. Generally, when active these muscles tend to lower the larynx, but when active during phonation they pull the shield of the Thyroid cartilege in a somewhat slightly forward-from straight-down direction, varying as a function of the relative positions of the sternum and the larynx. This motion assists the CT somewhat, but is a gross, rather than fine control.

However, that action is not a function of laryngeal position, but of muscle activation.

[Steven Fraser]

Hey,

I have a problem that when I go to head voice I justa can't keep larynx down. It will move up for high notes no matter what I try, and it always give me weak soud or my voice cracks or flips to falsetto. It will happen even for the easiest exercises like humrs. Is there something I can do :/

TheScientist: Some good advice has already been shared. I'd like to offer a perspective on _why_ a larynx will rise when you don't necessarily want it to.

The larynx is suspended between 20-some-odd muscles which go 'up', and 4 which go 'down'. It hangs in the middle, so it can move upward during the swallowing reflex, and downward for the yawn. Of these, the swallowing ones are far more important for survival, and are quite strong.

A very common situation among speaking voice users is to carry habitual and subconscious tension in the upward muscles during phonation. In this sense, it is 'natural', but it is by no means universal. Many people learn to speak without this particular muscular involvement, and carry that over into their singing.

However, in your and many other voice-user's situations, the habitual tension is so closely associated with voice use that it has become a part of the muscle memory. Its an ingrained habit. At the core of what you are asking is the dilemma: 'How do I replace this habit with one where my larynx does not rise as the pitch does?

Please don't feel alone in this situation. It is very common amongst non-professional voice users, and a fair number of pros have it too... they just don't care to address it for one reason or another.

As a general rule, tension in the extrinsic muscles (the uppers and downers, and those close by (neck, jaw, tongue) accumulates in groups. If there is tension, a bunch of them will have it. Part of the process will be to determine which ones are involved in the cause, and then to discover how to phonate with them un-tense.

So, if you want to begin the work, here are the kinds of exercises that you can do to develop an awareness of what is going on:

1) moving things around. Motion illuminates tension. When you move your head, jaw, larynx, hyoid, tongue... any of these, during phonation, you will feel any tension fighting your desire to be moving, and this can help you determine where the tension is.

For example, do a gentle yawn to lower your larynx, with your fingers pressing lightly under your chin. Do you feel the muscles under the chin tensing, resisting the drop of the larynx? Or, are they loose? The 'Glug' exercise which has been decribed is a great one to help get the up muscles just to reflexively relax.

Another example, try to stick your tongue out about 1" past your lips, and waggle the tip. Do you feel muscles resisting this motion?

My favorite: say the vowels ee, ay, ah, oh, oo while smiling a big smile, not moving your lips at all. Do you feel tongue tension for any of them? Oo particularly is challenging to do if your tongue is tense.

For other muscles: Chewing motions keep the jaw muscles from tensing. A slow, gentle head-angle roll (forward, left, back, right, but not too much) will help.

There is much more that can be written, and I am sure that others on the list have their favorites.

[Martin H]

Steven,

Yes, I was more speculating than giving facts. But here is another view on the matter (especially p. 85):

http://www.box.net/shared/s7sgdxkond

You can see how the extrinsic muscles "apparently" affect the pitch :)

[Steven Fraser]

Steven,

Yes, I was more speculating than giving facts. But here is another view on the matter (especially p. 85):

http://www.box.net/shared/s7sgdxkond

You can see how the extrinsic muscles "apparently" affect the pitch

Martin H: Its an interesting paper. Thanks for posting the link. I will read through it again tomorrow to pick up the nuances I may have missed the first time.

I find one of the arguments in the paper persuasive. I am in agreement with the one of the mentioned authors, that the frequency of F0 has influences that can come from extrinsic or associated muscle actions, an opinion with which I was formerly in disagreement. Further, I agree that the laryngeal pitch-production function should be considered an entire system of muscle, tendon, cartilege and bone interactions. The model is more wholistic and complete than the one I had been using, which was intrinsic muscle-centric.

All that said, this article's approach is to synthesize the references, even the ones which disagree with each other, on the F0 influences of the extrinsic muscles. In and of itself, this is not bad, but its scope does not include equally robust synthesis of the effects of intrinsic muscle action, particularly of the TA and Vocalis, so that _all_ the F0 influencers are included in the model. In this way, the wholistic model is only partially supported, and the reader is not allowed to correlate the wholistic model inclusive of the intrinsic controls.

There are a few nuggets, though, worth pointing out. In their comments related to classical singing, they say that the usual rising of the larynx with rising pitch does not need to occur, and can be reversed. This means it (the rising larynx) is not a requirement for raising the pitch, rather, it is a technique and tone quality choice available to the singer. I think this jibes well with my posted earlier comments about laryngeal vertical height positioning 'shoulds' as relevent only in the presence of an aesthetic preference or tone-quality value system.

I will write some additional response when I have weighed some of the authors' other points.

Thanks for the post. Good food for thought.

[Martin H]

Steven,

You are completely right, I also believe that it's important to see the whole voice as a "package"....all the mechanisms are related! And that's why I speculated that the pitch-mechanism is not entirely related to the intrinsic musculature alone.

Actually, what I find is that the thyrohyoid always contract when raising the pitch and when you Twang (that's why it's good to twang when singing higher). But of course that's related to the distance between the hyoid bone and the thyroid cartilage. But nevertheless it affects the vertical position of the larynx, even if you try to lower the larynx at the same time, by means of the depressor muscles. :)

[gno]

Martin - But twanging is not a pitch related action. Twanging affects tonal quality. You said that it is a good idea to twang when singing higher, as if twang were a choice (as I believe it is). Then you said that thyrohyoid contraction occurs when raising pitch and twang as if pitch and twang are interrelated. So how do you know that the twang isn't the cause of the thyrohyoid contraction (not pitch)?

[Martin H]

guitartrek,

To be honest, I don't know. This is only speculations. Not much research is to be found on this matter. I do believe though, that Twang is a prerequisite for higher notes. Meaning that Twang is an "ingredient" for the higher notes. :)

[Steven Fraser]

guitartrek,

To be honest, I don't know. This is only speculations. Not much research is to be found on this matter. I do believe though, that Twang is a prerequisite for higher notes. Meaning that Twang is an "ingredient" for the higher notes.

Martin H, guitartrek: Very interesting. My understanding is that twang is considered to be purely the result of aryepiglottic resonance, and is independent of laryngeal position. If done with a low larynx with a dilated lower pharynx, the aryepiglottic resonance (AER) causes a clustering and strengthing of formants 3, 4 and 5, into the classical "singer's formant", the 'chiarro' part of the classical chiarroscurro. If the AER is done without a lowered larynx or dilated pharynx, the tone quality stays intense, but the resonance profile is not as 'peaky'. I think that sound, these days, would be called pharyngeal voice in some circles.

I don't know if twang is a requirement for higher notes, but I do know that the voice gets about a 20dB boost from it, and it makes powerful singing in all ranges much more easily done. One technical writer on the topic compared it to an 'impedance matching area' sitting between the vocal bands and the pharynx. Titze's calculations show that 'twang' and 'yawn' voice are the two most efficient vocal tract configurations for phonation.

There is some interesting research on the use of twang as a therapy for certain disphonias, particularly when the speaking voice is otherwise breathy.

But, shall we get back to the original poster's question: What things can he do to learn how to sing without his larynx rising?

[Steven Fraser]

Steven,

Actually, what I find is that the thyrohyoid always contract when raising the pitch and when you Twang (that's why it's good to twang when singing higher). But of course that's related to the distance between the hyoid bone and the thyroid cartilage. But nevertheless it affects the vertical position of the larynx, even if you try to lower the larynx at the same time, by means of the depressor muscles.

Martin H: I think the thyrohyoid (TH) contraction is a habit. Many have it, some don't. I can sing tenor high C with a light, clear (non-twang) headvoice, without any sense that the depressors and the TH are in any sort of antagonism. I don't use twang up there much, but will play around with that and let you know.

[VideoHere]

Martin H: I think the thyrohyoid (TH) contraction is a habit. Many have it, some don't. I can sing tenor high C with a light, clear (non-twang) headvoice, without any sense that the depressors and the TH are in any sort of antagonism. I don't use twang up there much, but will play around with that and let you know.

steve and martin, correct me if i'm wrong, but twang can also be analygous to a "tone control."

more trebly depending on how much you employ?

[ronws]

I don't know if twang is a requirement for higher notes, but I do know that the voice gets about a 20dB boost from it, and it makes powerful singing in all ranges much more easily done. One technical writer on the topic compared it to an 'impedance matching area' sitting between the vocal bands and the pharynx. Titze's calculations show that 'twang' and 'yawn' voice are the two most efficient vocal tract configurations for phonation.

Most excellent, Steven. For I have studied electricity and electrical theory since 1974 and so I have a familiarity with impedance matching. In fact, it is key in getting an electric guitar to play through an amp. Or getting a voice mic to sound right on a pa. Guitar and voice mics have different impedances. Anyway, I like the analogy.

[tubagod]

try a big yawn inhalation followed by a high falsetto note. glissando this tone down through all of your registers all the way down to the lowest fry voice. this exercise helps get my larynx relaxed.

[Jens]

I think you guys are overthinking this, there's alot more to singing than the "mechanical" and the purevoicefunctions of the voice.

A deeper soundcolor(lowlarynx) will almost always be harder to sing highnotes(around A/B above passagio) with then with a lighter one.

I think this has many aspects, but one that you forget is our mind the voice is very emotionaly connected.

We connect darkersoundcolor with deeper notes and lighter soundcolor with highernotes, and that makes a ton of diffrence. There arent supermany presentations naturaly in nature that presents deepersoundcolored highnotes.

And that our folds primary function stretching wayback in our evolution wasnt making sounds, but acting as guarddogs for the lungs.

An otherway you can actualy test for yourself if you havent already got the experience is sing highnotes in the morning, the reason there is a "morningvoice" is because when you sleep the larynx sinks lower down in the throat to rest and hasnt quite got up to it's normal position when we wakeup.

I dont think manyof us get struck by the thought when we wakeup speaking in halffry alot deeper than usual "Man im gonna sing HIIIGH notes today"

[ronws]

Yeah, and I remember getting laughed at for mentioning the barking like a dog thing as a basis for natural voice projection. I guess it is political, i.e., who you are, etc.